Treblinka Evidence Please

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Nick Danger
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Postby Nick Danger » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 06, 2005 11:12 am)

Steve,
I understand the inner turmoil your friend feels, it’s a big pill to swallow.
He has some hurdles ahead and we can only offer some pondering points.

Can’t remember who said it, but to paraphrase: A lie told a million times is still a lie.
Hanover’s suggestion to ask who benefits and to follow the money is solid. Apply the ‘duck test.’ In addition, there’s an old saw among detectives stating that one piece of forensic evidence is better than a whole bushel basket of eyewitness testimony.

I read 18 Holocaust books before reading my first revisionist report. The quotes below are from a Holocaust book that many other books use as a source. It’s still in print, can be found in libraries everywhere and is 95% fact free. The stories are recycled ad nausium.


”The second Treblinka method, and the most widespread one, consisted
of pumping all the air out from chambers with large special pumps. By
this method death ensued from approximately the same causes as from
poisoning with carbon monoxide: man was deprived of oxygen.”
The Black Book, p408.
Underwritten by:
World Jewish Congress
Jewish Antifascist Committee

Treblinka:
"A gas with a delayed effect, which enabled the victims to leave the gas
chamber and walk to the mass graves; there they lost consciousness and
fell into the graves (Informaca Biez.a;ca, September 8, 1942)"

“And, finally, the third method, less widespread, was killing by
steam, based also on deprivation of oxygen: the steam drove air out
of the chamber. Many kinds of poison gasses were used too, but those
were only for experiments." The Black Book.

Tom Moran has written in some detail on Treblinka, perhaps he will do so here.

Good luck to your friend.

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Postby steve » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 06, 2005 2:10 pm)

Hannover,

I showed the Auschwitz smoke picture to him a couple of years ago. He admits, it is indeed fraudulent. Actually, that bit of fraud from the Wiesenthal Center is a favorite of mine.

While my friend does, to a significant degree, admit the H is hyper-exaggerated, he simply had trouble understanding, or admitting to, the degree to which it is. I myself refuse to call it an exaggeration. No!, If one million or so jews were killed in cold blood, 'simply for being jews', and the claim was made that 6 million were killed, then I would call that an exaggeraton. However, if less than 1 million were killed, many due to being partisans, many due to disease, etc., then claiming 6 million in cold blood is an outright lie. Period.

Hannover and Nick, I do not go by 'follow the money'. While many do make big bucks off the H Swindle, I believe it is more of a racial thing. The jews profit in many ways other than financial. It strengthens their bond if they all think of themselves as victims against the evil Goyim.

Treblinka:
"A gas with a delayed effect, which enabled the victims to leave the gas
chamber and walk to the mass graves; there they lost consciousness and
fell into the graves (Informaca Biez.a;ca, September 8, 1942)"


That has to be one of the all time greats!

"I understand the inner turmoil your friend feels"

The turmoil my friend feels? What about us! We are the ones with the unenviable task of trying to talk sense to these people and end up being looked at negatively (by many) for it!

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 06, 2005 10:13 pm)

Hotzenplotz wrote:
But you will like this:

Der Zeuge hat die Angeklagten Franz und Miete ohne Zögern wiedererkannt. Er hat seine Aussage vorsichtig, bedächtig, aber bestimmt gemacht. Seine Schilderung von Einzelheiten des Lagerlebens stimmt in den allermeisten Punkten mit den Aussagen anderer Zeugen überein, die ausserhalb von Polen leben und mit denen der Zeuge keine Verbindung hat. Das Schwurgericht hat keine Bedenken, dem Zeugen Glauben zu schenken.


Hotzenplotz's translation
"The witness [a polish butcher called Roj.] recognized the accused Franz and Miete unhesitatingly. He made his deposition carefully, slowly, but determined. His depiction of details of life in the camp match in the vast majority of points with the depositions of other witnesses who lived outside Poland and to whom the witness has no connection. The court does not doubt that the witness is credible."


Witnesses outside of Poland? Compare with Hilberg's 1961 version:
In the spring of 1942, killing centers were set up, one by one, by "specialists" from Berlin. At Malkinia, on the Bug, the death camp of Treblinka was built up as a receiving center for Jews from the Warsaw and Bialystok districts.
Destruction of the European Jews. 1961 version page 311.


Also consider that only around 70 people allegedly escaped Treblinka in a breakout. Yet there's the "deposition of other witnesses who lived outside Poland and to whom the witness has no connection." Hmmmm.

And even if there were some from other countries. They'd likely have a common language: Yiddish.
Last edited by Carto's Cutlass Supreme on Fri May 06, 2005 10:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 06, 2005 10:20 pm)

Hmmm, indeed. Hoisted by their own petard.

Nice work, CCS.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 12:11 am)

Thanks Hannover!

The lies almost make me wonder if the inner circle of Treblinka witnesses actually knew each other before the war. Even grew up with each other as children. That might explain why that passage tried to say the opposite.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 6:22 am)

The lies almost make me wonder if the inner circle of Treblinka witnesses actually knew each other before the war. Even grew up with each other as children. That might explain why that passage tried to say the opposite.


They are collectively known as ”professional eyewitnesses”.

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Postby Nick Danger » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 7:47 am)

Steve said:
[quote[
The turmoil my friend feels?
[/quote]
Sorry you misunderstood my drift. I could’ve been clearer. I recall, as a little boy, three occasions of inner turmoil: seeing my dog deliberately run-over; seeing those piled emaciated naked bodies gassed by the Nazis [on TV]; and learning the truth about Santa Claus.

As an adult, I felt the same way after researching the holocaust. It’s hard for people to face distasteful things. I just assumed your friend was at that point.
What about us! We are the ones with the unenviable task of trying to talk sense to these people and end up being looked at negatively (by many) for it!

That’s our cross to bear

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Postby Nick Danger » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 7:49 am)

Steve said:
The turmoil my friend feels?

Sorry you misunderstood my drift. I could’ve been clearer. I recall, as a little boy, three occasions of inner turmoil: seeing my dog deliberately run-over; seeing those piled emaciated naked bodies gassed by the Nazis [on TV]; and learning the truth about Santa Claus.

As an adult, I felt the same way after researching the holocaust. It’s hard for people to face distasteful things. I just assumed your friend was at that point.
What about us! We are the ones with the unenviable task of trying to talk sense to these people and end up being looked at negatively (by many) for it!

That’s our cross to bear.

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Postby Hotzenplotz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 8:07 am)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:
Witnesses outside of Poland? Compare with Hilberg's 1961 version:
In the spring of 1942, killing centers were set up, one by one, by "specialists" from Berlin. At Malkinia, on the Bug, the death camp of Treblinka was built up as a receiving center for Jews from the Warsaw and Bialystok districts.
Destruction of the European Jews. 1961 version page 311.


Sorry, my mistake. The German original in fact says "...who live outside Poland...", meaning they had no connection to each other before the trial. The witness may have lived in Poland before he was deported to Treblinka. Of course the judge wouldn't know if they had talked things through by phone...

Also consider that only around 70 people allegedly escaped Treblinka in a breakout. Yet there's the "deposition of other witnesses who lived outside Poland and to whom the witness has no connection." Hmmmm.


You're right. It seems probable that they knew of each other before the trial.

Hotzenplotz
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Postby steve » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 9:54 am)

Nick,

No need to explain. I knew what you meant. Though there is truth to what I said, I was trying to be humours for the most part.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 1:23 pm)

Hi Hotzenplotz,

If it's changed to "live outside of Poland" rather than "lived outside of Poland." It might mean that these Yiddish Polish Jews moved after the war? But then did they grow up together? They're from the same region if you look at the Hilberg passage. And wherever they really were during the war, they might have been together then. They claim they were all together in the camps which I doubt, but they might have been all together somewhere. Someone like Alexander Donat could have helped coordinate the story. He was an early player, translating Yankel Wernik's account in the middle of the war.

But somehow they didn't get the story right. Because even in 1946, before the United States Congressional Committee you had Treblinka survivor, Samuel Rajzman telling everyone that death came by pumping the air out of the chambers. His testimony regarding other points is frequently used in Hilberg's book.
For Rajzman see:
http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/20weber.html

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Postby Hotzenplotz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 2:42 pm)

Carto,

I agree that it is very well possible that they set it up. The discrepancies with the other accounts like the one you mentioned about pumping the air out of the chambers certainly justify your suspicion (not to speak of the missing physical evidence).

Hotzenplotz
"Repetition reinforces the primary messages of the religion in participants’ minds."

-Michael C. Howard, Contemporary Cultural Anthropology

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Postby steve » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 12, 2005 5:32 pm)

Here is what I read on the link Hotzenplotz provided:

The railway records at Treblinka station have also been consulted, as well as documents and coins dug out during the levelling of the surface; ...

Now, if what Hannover points out is indeed correct that there are records of incoming trains but no records of outbound trains, I think it is quite reasonable to assume it was not the Germans who destroyed the records but rather the allies either destroyed them or are simply not providing them. After all, why would the Germans destory one but not the other?
Any reason to disagree with this?

Also,
"The camp was finally ,,liquidated" in November, 1943. At the present time no traces of it are left, except for the cellar passage with the protruding remains of burnt posts, the foundations of the administration building, and the old well. Here and there can also be traced the remains of burnt fence posts and pieces of barbed wire, and short sections of paved road. There are also other traces. For example, in the north-eastern part, over a surface covering about 2 ha. (5 acres), there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues.
As a result of an examination made by an expert it was found that ashes were the remains of burnt human bones. The examination of numerous human skulls found in the camp has shown that they bear no traces of external injuries. Within a radius of several hundred yards from the camp site an unpleasant smell of burnt ash and decay is noticeable, growing stronger as one approaches."


"At the present time", I assume means 1946, the time this report came out.

So, they are saying that as early as 3 years later, no traces (or very little) are left. But, what is visible (barbed wire, etc.) may indeed be evidence of a camp. So, I'll assume there was a camp there. Now, "...there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, ...". This could be significant, but(!!), how much ash, and how many bones? This is not nitpicking. Let's say they found bones for 10 bodies. If there was a camp there, then why would that be so unusual? Of course, if there were bones for 50,000 bodies, then that would indeed be significant! However, I'm sure we'd all know about it.

"numerous human skulls found ..." Again, how many skulls? A few means nothing.

"Within a radius of several hundred yards from the camp site an unpleasant smell of burnt ash and decay is noticeable, growing stronger as one approaches." That may mean something, if true.

So, what we have here is a statement that there is really no significant physical evidence of hundreds of thousands of jews being murdered, buried, dug up and cremated. So, it seems as if there could not have been such a burial. Unless, such a task could be accomplished without leaving obvious evidence as little as 3 years after the event.

Browning says (not specifically about Treblinka, but in general)
"I have already said I have not done on-site inspection. I also noted that most of these places, there is no physical evidence left to inspect."

I like to disprove any story based on what the story-tellers themselves have to say. And, what they are saying is, again, hundreds of thousands of bodies were buried, dug back up, cremated, and the Germans almost completely covered up any traces of this. So, I ask one more time: Forget documents, eye-witnesses, etc. Does that seem credible?


Hotzenplotz -
Why did the Nazis remove the railways if there was nothing to hide?

Did the Germans really do that? Does anyone want to answer Hotzenplotz's question?
While I cannot offhand answer, it seems a more reasonable question is, did the Germans bury all those bodies, ... and leave no trace? Or, to put it another way, if the vanishing rail lines pose a problem, doesn't the lack of real evidence pose an even bigger problem? And again, you are getting admissions from defenders of the legends that there is no real evidence.

Now, I have yet to find any statement from anyone signifying any real significant evidence of a mass bury and burn. I guess there isn't any. So, unless such an undertaking can indeed be covered up, it seems the only reasonable conclusion is, no mass murder at Treblinka. If anyone disagrees, please say so, and why. Otherwise, I guess I am done with Treblinka here.

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Postby Hotzenplotz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 12, 2005 7:15 pm)

steve wrote:Now, if what Hannover points out is indeed correct that there are records of incoming trains but no records of outbound trains, I think it is quite reasonable to assume it was not the Germans who destroyed the records but rather the allies either destroyed them or are simply not providing them. After all, why would the Germans destory one but not the other?
Any reason to disagree with this?


That seems plausible. Do we know the source of those train records? Is it really German records or something somebody noted (as I understand is the case with Danuta Czechs Kalendarium on train arrivals in Auschwitz).

Your analysis of the Polish report on physical evidence seems convincing as well. The phrase "over a surface covering about 2 ha. (5 acres), there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand" is meant to suggest, I think, loads of ashes ("over a surface covering 2 ha."). But of course one can't extract anything objective from it. And a Polish report from 1946 doesn't make for a very credible source in the first place.

Browning says (not specifically about Treblinka, but in general)
"I have already said I have not done on-site inspection. I also noted that most of these places, there is no physical evidence left to inspect."

I like to disprove any story based on what the story-tellers themselves have to say. And, what they are saying is, again, hundreds of thousands of bodies were buried, dug back up, cremated, and the Germans almost completely covered up any traces of this. So, I ask one more time: Forget documents, eye-witnesses, etc. Does that seem credible?


It's strange. I have been trying to imagine how many pyres one needs to burn 900k people to ashes so that only "numerous" skulls remain (instead of mountains). If we put 20 people on one pire that would make 45k pyres in about 90 days (as it is alleged), i.e. spectacular 500 (huge!) pyres a day. The picture that was posted in the Korherr-thread doesn't seem at all indicative of 500, but perhaps 5 pires (besides the fact that there is no prove it's showing Treblinka). Then, how many wood do you need for 45.000 pyres? Unimaginable. And the Nazis obviously didn't even need to cut down the trees that stood just next to the camp. It all seems very improbable.

Testimonies/ Documents: From Browning:
5.5.5 On October 27, 1943, Globocnik confirmed to Herff in the SS Central Office for Personnel that included on his staff of 434 men were 92 men "from the Führer's Chancellery for the carrying out of Aktion Reinhard." These were the men who formerly staffed the institutes of the "euthanasia" program for killing mentally- and physically handicapped Germans and were subsequently assigned to the camps of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, where they could continue to use their expertise in gassing.

Do we have this document? Would interest me. I picked this piece of evidence from Browning's mostly semi-interesting list because it relates to a testimony of a worker called Lambert given in the Treblinka trial. Unfortunately, we've got only the verdict and this is only in German.
http://www.idgr.de/texte/dokumente/just ... urteil.php
Anyway. Lambert admits having built gas chambers for operation T4 (Aktion T4), the Nazi euthanasia programme. For this purpose he travelled to the hospitals where the programme was to be installed and built the chambers. Later, being an expert in gas chamber technology, he was sent to Sobibor and Treblinka and built gas chambers there as well. Well, ok, you will say it's worth nothing without the transcripts, perhaps you are right, but I think the accumulated testimonies from trials in the 1960s cannot simply be ignored without further inquiry. The idea that they admitted more than they did in order to get a lenient verdict may explain something, but I find it difficult to accept that all the detailed stories of how people became involved with T4 and later were sent to the death camps because they were "experienced" are made up. You don't do this if you're innocent.

Ok, this is not much compared to the logical problems and the lack of physical evidence. But I don't see how revisionists can be content to simply say that all testimonies are worthless. In the case of the 1960s trials in Germany that would necessitate a rather intricate conspiracy theory. Or so I think.

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Postby gonzo » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 12, 2005 8:00 pm)

a question to all

I showed the Auschwitz smoke picture to him a couple of years ago. He admits, it is indeed fraudulent. Actually, that bit of fraud from the Wiesenthal Center is a favorite of mine.

permit me to play devils advocate for a second.,.because i always prepare myself for all possible follow up comments by others when i am spreading the Holohoax message...............Cant Wiesenthal just say that the photo was submitted to them and they had no idea it had been doctored?...no foul.... no harm....no evidence of willful fraud.

I understand there was a response from Wiesenthal Center on this photo. what was said ?


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