Treblinka Evidence Please

[Hannover]

Hotzenplotz asks:

That seems plausible. Do we know the source of those train records? Is it really German records or something somebody noted (as I understand is the case with Danuta Czechs Kalendarium on train arrivals in Auschwitz).

Indeed, the 'Kalendarium' lists the transports 'to', I assume there are references. Yes?
then:

Your analysis of the Polish report on physical evidence seems convincing as well. The phrase "over a surface covering about 2 ha. (5 acres), there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand" is meant to suggest, I think, loads of ashes ("over a surface covering 2 ha."). But of course one can't extract anything objective from it. And a Polish report from 1946 doesn't make for a very credible source in the first place.

What report? All anyone ever claims is the supposed results, but we never see the actual alleged 'report'. Claims are not substance. The report, if true, would need to be verified as to authenticity, it would need to be examined for confirmation of the site, methodology, analysis of the allegedly found materials, etc. Compare to the German dig at Katyn. And then, where is the allegedly found materials? Why can't the 'holocau$t' Industry simply go to the site and confirm what is alleged?
and then:

Lambert admits having built gas chambers for operation T4 (Aktion T4), the Nazi euthanasia programme. For this purpose he travelled to the hospitals where the programme was to be installed and built the chambers. Later, being an expert in gas chamber technology, he was sent to Sobibor and Treblinka and built gas chambers there as well. Well, ok, you will say it's worth nothing without the transcripts, perhaps you are right, but I think the accumulated testimonies from trials in the 1960s cannot simply be ignored without further inquiry. The idea that they admitted more than they did in order to get a lenient verdict may explain something, but I find it difficult to accept that all the detailed stories of how people became involved with T4 and later were sent to the death camps because they were "experienced" are made up. You don't do this if you're innocent.

Right. A guy was sent to Treblinka & Sobibor to build diesel gas chambers after they were so successful in the euthanasia program. Laughable. I have a police station in Iraq I'll sell you if you believe that. Diesel is absurdly difficult to use for alleged mass murders, if not downright impossible as alleged (see F.P Berg's work). That blows away the Lambert 'confession' right there. There is no such evidence even for these 'Treblinka gas chambers' in the euthanasia programs. Euthanasia was/is common worldwide, by the way.

"You don't do this if you're innocent? Huh? Yes you do. When there is no option of challenging the 'gas chambers' because of 'judicial notice', your only option is to suck up to the prosecution and tell them what they want to hear and hope for leniency. Note, we have no court transcripts and certainly no cross examination records to see his verbatim 'testimony'. That trial, like the others was a show trial, Lambert had no viable option.

Any 'confessions' about gas chambers are necesarily worthless as Revisionists have shown that the gas chambers as alleged are utterly impossible. Simple as that. No matter how many times a lie is repeated, it is still a lie.

Repeated witcraft trials certainly didn't mean witchcraft was real.

- Hannover

[gasto]

No matter how many times a lie is repeated, it is still a lie.

That reminds me of Josef Goebbels´s quote: "If you tell a lie long enough, it becomes the truth."

Somehow it perfectly fits the "holocaust" tale

[steve]

Hotzenplotz,

Under normal circumstances, I would give testimony some credibility. But not for the H. For one, too much of it is unbelievable. Also, the political atmosphere makes it unreliable. You either understand the following or you don't. If the courts have it in their minds that the H happened as alleged, then it is worse than pointless to deny it. The best way is to go along but deny personal guilt. Under those circumstances, where testimony should naturally be suspect, it is reasonable to seek out OBJECTIVE evidence. And, well we see what that gets us.

You say, "...You don't do this if you're innocent. "
Under the realization that the only accepted view is, "The H happened as alleged", and if you are accused, then being innocent is no guarantee of anything. Look at John Damyenyuk(Sp?). God damn, they KNEW he was not guilty, but were ready to fry him anyway.

Of course, you can argue that the above is only my opinion. What is that worth? Someone can have a different opinion. How do you settle it? Well, is it an opinion that the evidence of the burial, re-dig, and cremation can be covered up? If you, Hotzenplotz, do not think that, then what is your only reasonable conclusion?

"I don't see how revisionists can be content to simply say that all testimonies are worthless. "

Well, did you read my posts on Elie Wiesel? Is it an exaggeration to say everything he has to say is indeed worthless? And bear this in mind, he is no obscure 'witness'. He is one of the most well known and respected(!!). What does that say to you?
As for others besides Elie Wiesel, if their stories contradict science, logic, etc., then yes!, they should be disregarded. I know this sounds irresponsibly hasty, but really, if someone claims an h-bomb went off in New York, something more than testimony would be required. Look at Katyn. Thousands of bodies were discovered. You don't need testimony.

You just have trouble seeing how a group of people can lie so brazenly. Stay on this subject; in time, you'll see it. As Sherlock Holmes said, "When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." So, no matter how improbable it is for all those jews to be lying about the H, if what they say contradicts laws of nature, then they must be lying. And what remains? No Big H!

Gonzo:

Cant Wiesenthal just say that the photo was submitted to them and they had no idea it had been doctored?

Well, the H is a full time profession for these people. Also, the H Industry has proven itself to be a gigantic fraud. I myself would find it impossible to believe they were not aware of the original photo. However, I must admit, if they told that to the average dunce, I guess it sounds no less believable than all the other bull shit they say.

As for what their excuse was, I am under the impression they said it was some sort of mistake in the processing of the photo. I may be incorrect about that however. Anyone out there know what their excuse was? I'm quite curious now.

[Turpitz]

As for what their excuse was, I am under the impression they said it was some sort of mistake in the processing of the photo. I may be incorrect about that however. Anyone out there know what their excuse was? I'm quite curious now.

At the time, true believer Roberto contacted Weisenthal's smelly hovel and was told "Someone sprayed some smoke on the picture with an airbrush. based on a "smudge" they saw.


Hotzenplotz, you yourself admit to being intimidated even talking about the industry to your "friends" and this is the year 2005, well imagine the intimidation that reigned in the courtrooms in 1960 especially if you were a star witness. Revisionists who have stood up to these scumbags in court then have to deal with the smearmonger tactics, they tried it at Irvings trial and the one in Switzerland "Racist, anti-semite, hater, Nazi and all the rest of their childish smears. When they have to resort to tactics like these, which have nothing at all to do with evidence, then you know they haven't got any, it's the last resort of the desperate, then they either bang them up, or give them a heavy fine.

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

Hi Hotzenplotz: please try to give better sources. Like page numbers, book title. Web page. I have no idea what that "Browning" stuff is. Thanks.

The idea that they admitted more than they did in order to get a lenient verdict may explain something, but I find it difficult to accept that all the detailed stories of how people became involved with T4 and later were sent to the death camps because they were "experienced" are made up. You don't do this if you're innocent.

Hannover's comment to this is pretty convincing: He essentially says "o.k. then why did the experts set it up wrong?" Why use diesel gas? For instance? Was it the expert's idea (with thousands a day trying to get into 3 or 10 bedroom-sized chambers) to perform a haircut on the women for no apparent reason? Unless you think "human hair beds" is a good reason, none of which have ever been found.

The idea of German "experts" is what's entirely lacking in the holocaust stories. Did the experts divise the open air cremation style at Treblinka? German experts or cavemen?

But on top of that consider the labor. It takes but a few people to set up a death contraption. Hence the example of Fred Leuchter in America being a one-man operation and contracting with various States. After he sets it up, then the prison staff run it. So most other people involved with it are technicians. Your quote mentions around 90 experts from the hospital Euthanasia program. That is 30 people per camp for 3 camps. That's just not enough labor for killing 1.5 million. And not enough if you use the 434 number. And on top of that, then why do we hear of just a small group of individuals, mostly Ukrainian? People knew of "Ivan" and "Franz" and "Stangl." The fact is this: You'd need an army to implement the systematic killing of 1.5 million people inside the space of a year. It wouldn't be a village atmosphere. It would be more like an industrial impersonal atmosphere. It wouldn't be like everyone would be familar with one Ukrainian guy named Ivan.

[Hannover]

Back to the laughable Lambert 'confessions':

Lambert admits having built gas chambers for operation T4 (Aktion T4), the Nazi euthanasia programme. For this purpose he travelled to the hospitals where the programme was to be installed and built the chambers.

I can just see, after having used alleged absurd diesel gas chambers to eliminate those who were sadly suffering (ahem ... injections like the rest of the world did/does?), Lambert found them so efficient that he built them at Treblinka using the alleged Russian tank engine. It's beyond bizarre, it's plain stupid.

- Hannover

[Richard Perle]

Exactly. The gas chambers allegedly used in the euthanasia programme didn't use engines, so I find it unlikely that someone involved with T4 would be of any use at Treblinka, not to mention that he certainly wouldn't recommend using diesel engines. It's too hard to believe that a German would design any of these gassing methods.

I think there is a tendancy with believers/agnostics to read guilt into the details given by the alleged perpetrators. You have to remember how widely reported both the euthanasia gassings and gassings of jews would have been at the time of the trials. It's not so hard to believe that people would tie both stories together and claim that people involved with one were involved with the other. This link would then make it into 'confessions'.

[Hannover]

Turpitz said:

Hotzenplotz, you yourself admit to being intimidated even talking about the industry to your "friends" and this is the year 2005, well imagine the intimidation that reigned in the courtrooms in 1960

Indeed, from my post at this thread:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=134
from the trial of Revisionist Juergen Graf, engineer Froelich (an expert witness whose field of expertise is process engineering and gas applications) testified:

Aufdenblatten: "In your opinion were mass gassings with Zyklon B possible?"

Froelich: "No".

Aufdenblatten: "Why not?"

Froelich: "The pesticide Zyklon B is hydrocyanic acid absorbed in a granular-shaped carrier substance. It is released though contact with the air. The evaporation point of hydrocyanic acid is 25.7 degrees (Celsius). The higher the temperature, the more rapid is the rate of evaporation. The delousing chambers in which Zyklon B was used in NS (German wartime) camps and elsewhere were heated to 30 degrees and higher, so that the hydrocyanic acid would be released rapidly from the carrier granules. However, in the half-underground mortuaries of the Auschwitz-Birkenau crematories, where witnesses claim that mass killings with Zyklon B took place, the temperatures were much lower. Even if one allows for the warming of the spaces by the body warmth of the hypothetical prisoners, the temperature would not have been more than 15 degrees, even in summer time. Consequently, it would have taken many hours for the hydrocyanic acid to evaporate."

"According to eyewitness reports, the victims died very quickly. The witnesses mention time frames of 'instantaneous' to '15 minutes'. To be able to kill the gas chamber prisoners in such a short time, the Germans would have had to use ridiculously large amounts of Zyklon -- I estimate from 40 to 50 kilograms for each gassing. This would have made any work in the gas chamber fundamentally impossible. The special detachment (Sonderkommando) people, whom the witnesses say were assigned the task of clearing out (dead bodies) from them (the gas chambers), would have collapsed immediately upon entering the rooms, even if they were wearing gas masks. Enormous amounts of hydrocyanic acid would have streamed out into the open, and would have poisoned the entire camp".

Froehlich's statement corroborates the investigations and declarations of such specialists as Austrian engineer Walter Lueftl, American research chemist William B. Lindsay, German chemist Germar Rudolf, and German engineer Wofgang Schuster.

And then, immediately following Froelich's statement, here is what public prosecutor Aufdenblatten had to say to him:

Aufdenblatten: "I hereby ask the court to bring charges against you for racial discrimination, on the basis of Article 261 (the Anti-Racism Law) or otherwise I'll do it myself".

In addition, here's a little information that set's the record straight about post WWII show trials:
SS-General Karl Wolff was on trial before the Munich ‘Landgericht’ in 1964. He was accused of participating in the killing of 300,000 Jews. Wolff protested over and over again that he knew nothing about Jews allegedly being killed in Auschwitz.
Presiding Judge Landgerichtsdirektor Jörka did not believe him:

“Being so close to Himmler you must have known what happened to the Jews in Auschwitz!”.

Jörka noticed that the jury tended to rather believe Wolff, they were going to pronounce him innocent and set him free. Then Jörka advised the jury:

“This is a political trial. The whole world is watching us. Wolff has to be sentenced.”

SS-General Karl Wolff was sentenced to 15 years prison.

(‘Neue Bildzeitung’, 4/21/1974)

- Hannover

[Hotzenplotz]

Thanks everybody for your thorough answers.

Hannover on Zyklon B: If it is indeed true what Froehlich says then there is not much to be discussed anymore. It's really a pity that for political reasons this question has not been addressed officially, since it would be quite easy to resolve. The explanation that body temperature made the cyanide evaporate is rediculous if we are really speaking about 25 degrees. I would never get the warm in the cremas if outside the temperature is, say, 10 degrees.

(‘Neue Bildzeitung’, 4/21/1974)

This report is quite interesting though the source is somewhat strange. Aparrently the paper which I have never heard of and which gets only 36 hits on google (some of which don't even pertain to it) was issued in the former GDR until 1972. On the one hand this might explain the critical stance on Western German courts, on the other it's strange because the GDR's policy was even more antifascist than the FRG's. Nevertheless, it's interesting.

Richard's idea how T4 participants became connected to the gas chambers in the death camps is quite good I think. There needs to be said more on how all the perpetrator testimonies fit together, though. For example Browning claims somewhere (don't have the link right now) that all of those prosecuted in the 1960s made pre-trial depositions affirming the existence of the gas chambers. So the defendants would actually have to have conspired to give a credible account of the gas chambers, how they knew each other what happened at what time etc. But of course we don't have enough information of this congruence alleged by Browning.
(The transcript and tapes (430 hours!) of the first Auschwitz trial have been published. I'll have look at them when I have more time in a couple of months. There's no English version and even the German version is not available at amazon.com; ASIN 3898532011)

Carto, the report by Browning can be found here:
http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/e ... owning.asp
or click [evidence/evidence on the implementation of the final solution] on the main page for frame support.

Concerning the Diesel engine maybe Lambert was not responsible for it but only for the building. But it remains a problem of course. I don't think it's a counter-proof though because if you replace all the air in the chamber by Diesel exhaust people will of course die be it toxic or not (I don't think Diesel exhaust contains enough oxygen to survive, though I'm not sure admittedly). A big submarine engine (those things are started by normal car engines) would have the advantage of generating lots of exhaust thus blowing out the air quickly.

Well, there remain lots of logical problems I'm not contesting this. Somebody in this thread said if you hear 6m were murdered the first thing to naturally do would be to look for evidence at the sites. It really seems rediculous that people are trying to proove the H by a couple of ambiguous documents and more or less forced confessions.

Hotzenplotz

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

Hi Hotzenplotz,

Here's a quote from you with my comments in red:

Concerning the Diesel engine maybe Lambert was not responsible for it but only for the building.The building: the size of a guest bedroom. 3 of them, set up to kill 10,000 people a day. Glad they had an expert design that. But it remains a problem of course. I don't think it's a counter-proof though because if you replace all the air in the chamber by Diesel exhaust people will of course die be it toxic or not (I don't think Diesel exhaust contains enough oxygen to survive, though I'm not sure admittedly). You'd die by particles irritating your lungs over a long time. Diesel engines don't have spark plugs, they compress and air and diesel mixture until it explodes. Not all the air reacts, it goes out the exhaust pipe as air. Lot's of threads here at revforum about thisA big submarine engine (those things are started by normal car engines) would have the advantage of generating lots of exhaust thus blowing out the air quickly.The exhaust with the fresh air mixed in. And why would that matter? You have the equivalent of a river of diesel blowing through a small room, when all you'd need is enough diesel exhaust to fill the room and then add a little more after that. Plus these witnesses never describe an outtake pipe, only an intake. Odd isn't it? And Russian submarine engine? No mechanic's manual in German. No ability to obtain a spare part very easy. Why use that? It would be like me using a North Korean car engine for a crucial trip across the United States. Also, why not put together a producer gas engine, also called a wood gas engine from scraps lying around the camp, and you'd have way more carbon monoxide with that system.

[Hannover]

I suggest Hotzenplotz get up to speed on the alleged 'diesel gas chambers':
http://fpberg.yourforum.org/archive/index.html
The claim is ridiculous.

- Hannover

[Hotzenplotz]

Hi Hannover & Carto,

if Berg's contentions about Diesel exhaust are correct then the case is shut for me. This would mean that all the SS testimonies are worthless. The question of how it came about that they confessed would then be idle.

Admittedly, the only reason for doubt I can think of at this moment is that Berg is simply wrong, perhaps lying.

Pressac says:

He [a revisionist cartoonist] forgot that the Treblinka gas chambers used CO (carbon monoxide), contained in the exhaust gas of a tank engine (gasoline or diesel, both being equally deadly for humans).

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0016.shtml

According to google, that's the only occurrence of Diesel in Pressac's opus. Not much. But it should be possible to check in independent sources whether Diesel is similarly deadly as gasoline.

Hotzenplotz

[Turpitz]

According to google, that's the only occurrence of Diesel in Pressac's opus. Not much. But it should be possible to check in independent sources whether Diesel is similarly deadly as gasoline.

There is no need, in many countries for the vehicles to be allowed on the road they have to pass emmisions tests, the diesel test only tests for density of smoke, nothing more, only the petrol engines are tested for dangerous substances carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons.

Once again another classic example of non-practically minded people telling lies and being caught out.

[Hotzenplotz]

There is no need, in many countries for the vehicles to be allowed on the road they have to pass emmisions tests, the diesel test only tests for density of smoke, nothing more, only the petrol engines are tested for dangerous substances carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons.

In the EU we've got legal limits on CO content for Diesel vehicles too, which are, depending on the norm, about 1/2 to 1/3 of gasoline limits. This shows CO in Diesel exhaust is significantly lower, but it doesn't show whether Diesel's lethal or not.

But in either case it would be stupid to use a Diesel engine for gassings.

[Hotzenplotz]

found something...

Nebeneffekt: Weniger Selbstmorde wegen Katalysator

Berlin – Katalysatoren nutzen nicht nur der Umwelt, sie sorgen auch dafür, dass weniger Selbstmorde begangen werden. Nach einem Bericht der Tageszeitung "Die Welt" konnten der Forscher der Universität Atlanta nun feststellen, dass sich die Suizide durch Kohlenmonoxid-Abgase der Autos in den USA seit 1975 halbiert haben. [...] Der Kat reduziert den Ausstoß giftiger Gase wie Kohlenmonoxid nachhaltig. Deswegen eignen sich diese Fahrzeuge nicht mehr für einen Selbstmord.

"Side effect: Fewer suicides because of catalytic converters

Berlin - Catalytic converters not only benefit to the environment but also have the effect that fewer suicides are commited. According to a report of the daily paper 'Die Welt' scientists of the University of Atlanta discovered that the suicide rate by carbon monoxyde exhaust of cars dropped by 50% in the USA since 1975. [...] The catalytic converter reduces the emission of toxic gases like CO significantly. Therefore those cars are not suitable anymore for commiting suicide."

http://www.muekon.de/Psycho-News/Suizid/suizid.html
(German)

Since Diesel powered cars don't use catalytic converters but the legal limits on CO in the EU are still lower for Diesel than for gasoline (gasoline cars must have catalytic converters in the EU), the implication is that Diesel engines never were suitable for suicide.

Hotzenplotz