German Atrocities

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steve
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German Atrocities

Postby steve » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 11:02 am)

The inspiration for this thread is the goings on in the thread, The Hirtreiter document.
Rather than stray off topic and post there, it is better to start a new thread.

It seems that some 'for the most part revisionists' accept that some atrocities were performed by the Germans against the jews. And it seems some of the, let's call them, 'hard core revisionists', take offense at this.

While one should be only concerned for the facts and the truth, I can understand why some of the 'hard core' types among us get annoyed at the ones who 'admit' to German atrocities.

In my opnion, certainly there were some atrocities, committed by the Germans, against the jews. Now when I say 'atrocity' I implicity mean 'unjustified' atrocity. After all, there was a war, passions get high, you can have some 'extra zealous' soldiers, etc. This kind of thing will happen with any army. Now, I believe the Germans were indeed the most well behaved, but I would be awfully surprised if NONE of them engaged in excessive behavior.

Now, that said, I will also admit, I get angry as hell, when discussing the H, someone will point out some 'bad' action by some Germans.

The reason I get upset is, they implicitly try to connect this to a possible Big H. And that is absurd, for then every country could be accused of performing a Big H.

Another reason I get outraged is because it misses the point. That is, the excessive actions of a few soldiers has absolutely NOTHING to do with the crime Germany is accused of.

Finally, probably the biggest reason I take offense is because, why complain about a guy breaking arms, if you are NOT complaining about a guy breaking legs. What I mean is, after being into this topic for 6 years, it seems the Allies were BY FAR the most despicably behaved party in that war, NOT the Germans. So, if you are going to gripe about some excessive action by some Germans, then I want to hear ten times that amount of griping about the Allies.

When I see Turpitz, (who has got to be the most crotchety member here, beating Hannover by a landslide!) get all bent out of shape, I actually laugh. I do feel he possibly misreads the intent of some of the posters (Richard Perle, for example). But the reason he acts like that (this is my opinion, of course), is because he knows the H is a very serious lie, that it is contstantly being jammed down our throats, and it seems that some people who should know better, still seem to get swayed by singular acts which have nothing to do with a possible H.

It is similar to an analogy I gave before. If you were falsely accused of raping 10 women, you would not be pleased if someone can along and said you only raped two of them.

The Germans have this horrible reputation. The biggest reason is the Big H. That buthcer, Morel, can set up torture camps, and get away with it because after all, it is only as Eye for an Eye. No, the Germans broke a jew's fingernail (in return for an eye), and the jews want two arms, two legs, THREE eyes, and payment for eternity.

So, were there ANY (uncalled for) atrocities committed by Germans against jews. Again, I would have to say, of course! But, 1) It was not state policy, 2) They pale in comparison to what the Allies did.
If it turned out there was absolute proof some German guard threw some helpless jew in a delousing chamber, and gassed him to death, it would still not change anything as far as a Big H was concerned. It would be a singular event, the kind that happen in any war. Also, I am not saying the helpless jew deserved it, but I have just so much sympathy, and that is reserved for the ones that suffered the most, and from what I have seen, it was the Germans. So, I don't give a damn about those singular events. And get irritated when someone mentions them as some kind of 'evidence' that the H story may have some truth behind it.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 11:33 am)

It seems that some 'for the most part revisionists' accept that some atrocities were performed by the Germans against the jews.


Why specifically the Jews? I certainly never specified the Jews.

When I see Turpitz, (who has got to be the most crotchety member here, beating Hannover by a landslide!) get all bent out of shape, I actually laugh. I do feel he possibly misreads the intent of some of the posters (Richard Perle, for example). But the reason he acts like that (this is my opinion, of course), is because he knows the H is a very serious lie, that it is contstantly being jammed down our throats, and it seems that some people who should know better, still seem to get swayed by singular acts which have nothing to do with a possible H.


Steve, I can assure you I am in perfect shape. The way it's going, if I do not stop replying I'm going to be labelled a terrorist in a minute.

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Postby steve » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 11:53 am)

Steve, I can assure you I am in perfect shape.

Hey, Turpitz, I have read many of your posts. You definitely know the score. And you have the right attitude to boot.

The way it's going, if I do not stop replying I'm going to be labelled a terrorist in a minute.

I think most of us evil Big H Deniers are considered terrorists!

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 1:48 pm)

steve wrote:The inspiration for this thread is the goings on in the thread, The Hirtreiter document.
Rather than stray off topic and post there, it is better to start a new thread.

It seems that some 'for the most part revisionists' accept that some atrocities were performed by the Germans against the jews. And it seems some of the, let's call them, 'hard core revisionists', take offense at this.

While one should be only concerned for the facts and the truth, I can understand why some of the 'hard core' types among us get annoyed at the ones who 'admit' to German atrocities.

In my opnion, certainly there were some atrocities, committed by the Germans, against the jews. Now when I say 'atrocity' I implicity mean 'unjustified' atrocity. After all, there was a war, passions get high, you can have some 'extra zealous' soldiers, etc. This kind of thing will happen with any army. Now, I believe the Germans were indeed the most well behaved, but I would be awfully surprised if NONE of them engaged in excessive behavior.


That must have happend on a terribly small scale. Anyone caught in doing something like that was indeed punished. Same thing applies in the concentration camps, anyone caught mistreating a prisoner was heavily punished, reprimanded. It is in the nature of the German to be good and decent. However, there are some observed cases where Germans mistreated Jews in the camps, but such cases are relatively few. One which springs to mind right now would be the case of Karl Otto Koch, but he was punished in the most strictest sense of the word; by way of execution.

Karl Otto Koch was handed his punishment of execution by famous prosecutor SS judge Konrad Morgen, his execution took place in 1945.

If the German National Socialist Government supposedly encouraged their soldiers to murder Jews, why was Karl Otto Koch punished for his deeds?

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 2:59 pm)

I replied here but decided to make a new topic with it.

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Postby steve » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 7:09 pm)

Halden,

I agree with what you said 100%.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 07, 2005 10:59 pm)

"Hardcore"?

What is "hardcore" about demanding the same standard of evidence for any alleged "atrocities" as is done for the alleged gas chambers? If there's evidence for an atrocity then let's see it. Consistency is the only way to go. Revisionist have nothing to gain by any attempt to placate the True Believers.

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Postby steve » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun May 08, 2005 6:07 am)

Hannover,

You sound like me when I am talking to my friend!
I agree with you; it is a poor choice of words.

When I said, 'hardcore', I meant someone who knows the H is a complete bunch of crap and refuses to accept any specific claim of German atrocity unless backed up by reasonable evidence. 'Softcare' would be someone who still does not quite understand the nature of the H Lie.

So, you can say 'hardcore' really means 'reasonable'! 'Softcore' would mean still not getting it.

You are right in pointing out my poor choice of words.

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun May 08, 2005 12:55 pm)

Haldan wrote: Same thing applies in the concentration camps, anyone caught mistreating a prisoner was heavily punished, reprimanded. It is in the nature of the German to be good and decent. However, there are some observed cases where Germans mistreated Jews in

A good description about the treatment of prisoners in German concentration camps can be found in “The Belsen Trial, ‘Statement Of Josef Kramer’”

Kramer was involved in the operation of several German concentration camps, some of them as the Kommandant, among them Auschwitz and Bergen Belsen.

Kramer:
6. I have been told that some of my S.S. staff were guilty of ill-treatment and brutality toward the prisoners. I find this very difficult to believe and I would trust them absolutely. To the best of my belief they never committed any offenses against the prisoners. I regard myself as responsible for their conduct and do not believe that any of them would have infringed my orders against ill-treatment or brutality.”

Source: http://vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/16.html

Kramer was hanged by the British.

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:26 am)

From the brochure A Jew speaks with Himmler published by Albert Bonnier, 1945:
http://vho.org/VffG/2005/3/Graf301-309.html

I found some quotes of particular interest:

The discussion turned into to another topic, the concentration camps.

„Die Häftlinge mußten hart arbeiten, aber das mußte auch das ganze deutsche Volk. Die Behandlung in den Lagen war streng, aber gerecht.“ (HIMMLER) [TRANSLATION: The prisoners must work hard, but so has the whole German people. The treatment in the camps were strict/harsh, but fair.]


On the topic of severe mistreatments in the camps, Himmler answered:
"I must admit that some mistreatments happened, but the guilty ones were punished.


Those two quotes are of the most interest regarding this topic. I have tried to ask the question to Holocaust Believers; why would the Germans punish their own men for mistreating a Jew who would supposedly enter a "gas chamber" anyway? The question is ignored or simply hushed away, with no meaningful answer given.

I mean, according to other information and some which I read in the thread on Edith Stein, it wasn't exactly a secret operation, this "gas chamber" operation which they have been accused of operating, where people could just walk straight up and ask to replace other people. Just like someone exchanges a bad flask of milk, or a couple of shoes who didn't fit.

So why would they bother with prosecuting their own men infront of a court for mistreating the Jews? Could the reason be that the accusations of "gas chambers" and other hysterical nonsense is untrue? I certainly find that true when overviewing the available "evidence".

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:22 am)

Certainly there were some acts commited against Jews by German forces that could be called atrocities, I think especially in connection with deportations. For example, it seems that thousands of Jews were shot since they were infected with diseases, too old or of too frail health to be deported. This is nothing that serious revisionist scholars deny. Cf Mattogno's book on Belzec, p.101.

War is always brutalizing and dehumanizing.

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Postby diaz52 » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:30 am)

I'd be interested to know the opinions and evidence revisionists's have gathered with regards to what seems to me to be an oft over-looked part of the Holocaust story, at least as told by the establishment holohoax folks: And that is the persecution of the mentally and physically retarded by the Third Reich.

I know from establishment documentaries I've seen over the years that the notion is floated that Hitler's regime used the murder of such disadvantaged and disabled people as a kind of "practice-run" or "warm-up" to the full-fledged extermination of the Jews.

Furthermore, I've seen on TV "documentaries" (no I don't remember which specific one it was) that the notion was put forth that the German populace found the persecution of the retarded so abhorent that they actually stood up to Hitler's regime, and forced the Third Reich to relent, and back aways from their murderous plans. The point of this addition to the Holocaust story, which was made very clear as to be impossible to miss, was that the German people rose up in anger over the persecution of the mentally and physically retarded gentiles, however they did nothing to prevent the persecution and murder of the Jews.

Now I haven't look into this aspect of the establishment's Holocaust story, as there is no shortage of things I've always wondered about over the years with regard to the establishment's Holocaust story, however Steve your post made me think of this specific corner of the Holocaust tale put forth by the establishment. Has there been any serious research into this from perspective other than the establishment's? Are both aspects of it mentioned above as undocumented as the Holocaust itself, or was there indeed some government organized persecution and/or muder ( or perhaps an effort toward mass "euthanasia") of retarded Germans? It would seem to me there should be solid documentation available if there was indeed some kind of mass revolt or resistance against the regime as a whole to stop this persecution. I realize Hitler's government wasnt a believer in a Free Press however surely such a mass movement would have gained enough attention as to leave trace evidence somewhere in the media of the time, or something. Anyways, from what I've gathered it is indeed an interesting angle on the "Big H" which seems to have not yet been fully mined. so your thoughts are invited and any light you could shed on this supposed "test-run" and the supposed "German peoples's resistance to it" would be appreciated.
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:46 pm)

diaz52:

What you're referring does indeed come under the euthanasia program that Germany had for awhile, but stopped. It was completely legal, and today is commonplace.

The absurd assertions about it being a 'trial run' for the dumb 'holocaust' are ridiculous and without a shred of evidence, as usual. Often you read about the 'T4' program with even gassings claimed by the same people who claim gas chambers for Jews. The claims do not hold up to rational scrutiny.

There's plenty here about it, just search 'euthanasia' and see.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:26 pm)

Anybody who doesn't think that atrocities were committed by all sides during WWII is a fool or a liar.

I believe for example that the Germans generally tried to run their prisoner of war camps for western (not Russian) allied prisoners in line with the Geneva Convention rules although there were probably exceptions but that Eisenhower did not so treat the German prisoners of war after the war was over and many died from mistreatment. This was not an "exception" or a little error but a deliberate policy and probably a war crime. But the winners are never charged with such offenses and Eisenhower is considered a war hero in the US.

As for the Nazi treatment of the Jews it must be recognized that the Nazis' policy was to drive them out of Europe and in so doing they were forced from their homes, lost their property, and were driven to the east into camps where conditions were often bad and where many innocent people died of typhus and other bad conditions. Whether or not there were gas chambers, or whether the number of victims was 6 million, etc. this treatment was not proper and constituted a violation of their human rights. It is foolish to deny this while contesting the Holcaust lies since to do so discredits the legitimate revisionist positions.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:56 pm)

Whether or not there were gas chambers, or whether the number of victims was 6 million, etc. this treatment was not proper and constituted a violation of their human rights. It is foolish to deny this while contesting the Holcaust lies since to do so discredits the legitimate revisionist positions.

I know of no Revisionists who deny that. I know of no one who denies the fact that some Jews died.

But given what the world was doing at the time (Judeo-communist concentration camps/gulags, Judeo-communist mass murders, British, American, & French colonial occupation of a vast part of the world, US concentration camps for Japanese-Americans, on & on), the German acts pale in comparison.

The lies of 'gas chambers' and '6,000,000' do matter in this discussion. Just saying something like:
'It doesn't matter if it was 6,000,000 or 1, it was horrible'.
Well, it does matter.

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