Germans destroyed evidence?

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steve
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Germans destroyed evidence?

Postby steve » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 13, 2005 8:19 pm)

I see some people here talk about the Germans blowing up some of the crematories at Auschwitz to destroy evidence of their crimes. And, not just at Auschwitz, but everywhere else.

Now, listen. It is accepted by all that the Germans let many of their prisoners stay at Auschwitz to be 'liberated' by the Soviets. Why doesn't this itself prove there could not have been an extermination plan? I do not use the word 'prove' lightly. But, it seems completely contradictory that the Germans are supposed to be killing jews deliberately, but at the same time, allow them to stay behind. And, apparently some of the prisoners who left with the Germans were given a choice also.

I mean, it seems to me, the claim that there is no physical evidence because the Germans destroyed it (as opposed to there being no evidence because there was no crime), MUST be false! Simply because the Germans allowed so many 'witnesses' to live and tell their tales to the Soviets (who would relay it to the world).

This seems so obvious, so simple. I must ask any 'believer', 'agnostic', 'on the fence types', 'wafflers', etc. Does this not practically prove there was no extermination plan? Or at minimum, does this not completely prove the allegation that the Germans were fanatic about destroying evidence must be false? Or am I missing something here?

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 13, 2005 8:36 pm)

The line from the Industry is, the prisoners left behind were supposed to be shot, but in the confusion it never happened. I believe a similar story is given about another camp (Belzec?) where the entire evacuation process is claimed to have been a mistake.

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Postby theTRUTH » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 13, 2005 11:39 pm)

There was absolutely no confusion from November, '44 to January 27th, '45 when the Soviets entered Auschwitz I and Birkenau. The Germans had months to quietly decide what to do with the inferm, elderly, women, and children who decided not to travel west with the Germans, or could not travel.

These were prisoners in a fenced camp, not residents in an open city who could escape. At any time right up to January 27th the inmates could have been quickly executed, but instead the Germans fed, housed, and kept them alive for the Soviets to find and question.

If the Germans had even the slightest thing they did not want the Soviets to find out about, they would never have allowed the prisoners to be found. When the Soviets executed groups throughout Poland, the Ukraine, and throughout Russia they ensured there were absolutely no witnesses alive to tell their story.

So whether the Germans destroyed the Cremation buildings and morgues (alleged gas chambers) between the December 21st, '44 air photo showing everything intact, and the February 19th, '45 air photo showing the buildings destroyed by explosions, is not as important as the fact the Germans kept hundreds of prisoners alive to be found by the Soviets.

Excellent point!

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 14, 2005 4:39 am)

So whether the Germans destroyed the Cremation buildings and morgues (alleged gas chambers) between the December 21st, '44 air photo showing everything intact, and the February 19th, '45 air photo showing the buildings destroyed by explosions, is not as important as the fact the Germans kept hundreds of prisoners alive to be found by the Soviets.


It is very important for me personally, because I believe they were destroyed so as to enable the industry to re-invent/design them to suit their own needs. I do not think relying on the CIA photo's where known forgers worked is a good method of proof that they were destroyed by Feb 45, especially in light of the obvious and diabolical attemtps at tampering that can be seen on the photo's in relation to the holes.

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Postby Hotzenplotz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 14, 2005 7:47 am)

Hi,

because Steve referred to "on the fence types" I'll say something on the matter. I agree that the Story is rather implausible in this respect (as well). But there could be explanations which I'll give for the sake of discussion:

-The Nazis could have shot the survivors, but they wouldn't have had enough time to cremate them thus leaving mass graves as proof. So they preferred leaving them alive.

-If the camps were found empty by the Russians that would have been an even stronger proof for mass exterminations, wouldn't it?

-The whole idea that you can conceal the murder of 6,000,000 Jews +other minorities is absurd, especially if your contry is occupied (which could be expected by 1944) and your enemies are going to write the history books. It's totally 100% impossible that the allies wouldn't detect that some 6m Jews were missing from Europe. So perhaps the Führer simply decided it's enough now or for some other reason we don't know stopped the gassings, not bothering about the survivors because he knew he couldn't conceal what he'd done anyway.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 14, 2005 8:16 am)

The Nazis could have shot the survivors, but they wouldn't have had enough time to cremate them thus leaving mass graves as proof. So they preferred leaving them alive.


They could have magically made them vanish like all the rest!

If the camps were found empty by the Russians that would have been an even stronger proof for mass exterminations, wouldn't it?


Only if evidence was found that murder had taken place. Just because somewhere is emtpy, does not mean everyone was murdered.

not bothering about the survivors because he knew he couldn't conceal what he'd done anyway.


He has though hasn't he? I have seen no evidence that "Eleven million" were murdered.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 14, 2005 8:25 am)

I see no reason to kill the remaining inmates when there would be other inmates alive that were evacuated west. These evacuations are painted as 'death marches' designed to kill, but this is ridiculous for obvious reasons.
Does anyone know how far the evacuated inmates had to walk? I know they walked to trains for evacuation by rail. It wouldn't suprise me if these 'death marches' were only a few miles, considering how everything else the Nazis did has been twisted and exaggerated.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 14, 2005 9:54 am)

The inmates who remained at Auschwitz after they were given a choice to leave with the SS or stay. Most chose to leave with the SS.
see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1372
They really look maltreated don't they?

Healthy Jews of Auschwitz upon 'liberation'
Image
Healthy Jewish children alive in the Auschwitz II (Birkenau) upon Soviet arrival. Still from a postwar Soviet film.
Image

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Postby Iggy » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 14, 2005 10:28 am)

I've seen this alleged often, this "choice" to go with the SS or stay. Where's the evidence for this? Granted, many Jews were afraid of the Soviets, but that doesn't mean they were given a choice.

Please note that Night by Elie Wiesel is a novel and can't be used as evidence here.

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Postby theTRUTH » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 14, 2005 10:38 am)

The Germans obviously felt the remaining Auschwitz and Birkenau inmates would describe humane camp conditions and no mass-murders, because instead of killing the prisoners and burying them in unmarked graves in the Vistula River valley, or cremating them and burying the bones, they left the prisoners to be questioned by Soviet interrogators who had repeatedly broadcast radio messages that anyone found harming prisoners-or-war or camp-inmates would be severely punished.

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Postby Iggy » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 14, 2005 10:59 am)

They only left behind the people in the hospital. Did they think those people would survive?

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 14, 2005 1:23 pm)

Please note that Night by Elie Wiesel is a novel and can't be used as evidence here.


That book is his memoirs of time in the camp, I know it's highly embarrasing but can certainly be used. The Swindlers list book seems to suffer from the exact same affliction, although reversed; changing from fiction to non-fiction overnight.

They only left behind the people in the hospital. Did they think those people would survive?


Those images above do not reflect hospital patients to me, what's wrong with them? The children most certainly have not been in a hospital bed dressed like that, what's a hospital for inmates doing in a supposed "death camp" anyway?

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Postby theTRUTH » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 14, 2005 1:23 pm)

If they had executed inmates without due cause, the Germans would not have left witnesses for the Soviets to question:
------------
Prisoners liberated from Auschwitz camps

The last roll call, taken on January 17, 1945, showed that there was a total of 16,226 prisoners in the main camp, called Auschwitz I,... 10,030 men and 6,196 women. The Nazi records from the camp were turned over to the International Red Cross Tracing Service by the Soviet Union after the fall of Communism. The total count from the last roll call was 67,012 prisoners in the three Auschwitz camps, according to Danuta Czech's book entitled "Auschwitz Kalendarium."

A movie (was) made by Henryk Makarewicz, a soldier in the Polish Berlin Army, immediately after the camp was liberated.
(Who sells this movie?)

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Au ... ation.html
--------------
On 8 May 1945 a State commission compiled by the Soviets with advice from Polish, French, and Czechoslovak experts revealed the full horror of conditions at (Auschwitz and Birkenau).…Nearly 3,000 survivors of various nationalities were questioned and on the basis of their evidence the report estimated 4,000,000 people had perished there between 1941 and early 1945….According to the evidence, the commission said the Germans had moved out up to 60,000 inmates - those still fit enough to walk - when they retreated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 520986.stm

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 14, 2005 3:18 pm)

Holocaust defenders say those inmates were fresh arrivals.


My question to them would be how could those people be so healthy and well-fed if they were hiding in holes and attics with few food supplies trying to avoid capture? My guess is if you could identify the individuals in those pictures they would probably be long-term inmates.


Holocaust defenders never return to the thread to discuss this.


If they had exterminated millions of jews why bother stopping? If there were a few thousand left in the camps prior to the Red Army arriving that would have been easily do-able within the extreme rates already claimed. They claim 8-24,000 were gassed per day at the height of the program. If there were a few thousand left they could have handled this easily and transported the ash away for dispersal. These potential problems were easily solveable according to previous exterminationist versions. Why do they suddenly become a problem now?

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat May 14, 2005 3:28 pm)

steve wrote:I see some people here talk about the Germans blowing up some of the crematories at Auschwitz to destroy evidence of their crimes. And, not just at Auschwitz, but everywhere else.


"The AUSCHWITZ camp was dismantled in November and December 1944 by a special dismantling commando of 2,000 girls who were to tear it down, stone by stone. However, the fast Russian advance prevented them from finishing the job."

(A May 1945 Report by U.S. Psychological Warfare on the Auschwitz Camp, on the basis of prisoners and other Intelligence.)

"Karl! Assemble all the girls, and tell them to tear down this place! Stone by stone, raus!"

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