Who invented the "Gas Chambers"?

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
elvistheelf
Member
Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:59 am

Postby elvistheelf » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:49 am)

Please provide provenance for this alleged "document". Without provenance it is utterly worthless as there is no proof that it:

1. exists

2. is genuine (if it does exist).

Try to apply the "rules of evidence" that you apply to the "other side" to your own sources.

Elvis

Richard Perle
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:45 am

Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:42 am)

Wow! That's quite an explosive quote for revisionists. I'm suprised I haven't heard it before.

User avatar
Moderator
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1706
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 9:23 am

Postby Moderator » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:26 am)

Haftbefehl in Österreich - Blumen in der "DDR"
http://www.vho.org/D/ruw/Archiv/6/2/Irving.html

Translation for our non-German speaking readers anyone?
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

elvistheelf
Member
Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:59 am

Postby elvistheelf » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:25 am)

No educated Briton of the period would have written:

"We have had a good run for our money now with this gas chamber lie, but really we gotta be a bit careful because eventually it is gonna be exposed and our entire-------will be threatened"

"Gotta" and "gonna" are Americanisms, which makes the validity of this supposed document highly questionable.

Elvis

Richard Perle
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:45 am

Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:53 am)

I have to agree with elvistheelf here, that language is, like, so totally not fitting with Brits of that period. Ahem.

It sounds more like casual revisionist talk. I'm so used to it that it slipped past me when I first read it.

Revisionists can destroy the holocaust lies with ease without documents like this.

User avatar
Haldan
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:56 pm
Location: <secret>
Contact:

Postby Haldan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:43 am)

I have done some further inquiries. Will report back soon.

No educated Briton of the period would have written:

"We have had a good run for our money now with this gas chamber lie, but really we gotta be a bit careful because eventually it is gonna be exposed and our entire-------will be threatened"

"Gotta" and "gonna" are Americanisms, which makes the validity of this supposed document highly questionable.


The quote is strictly from memory so if the language is correct or not doesn't matter much. This is what the quote said, leaving out only one or two words after "will be threatened". This is also why I asked if somebody else knew more about this than I did.

-haldan
<?php if ($Holocaust == false ) {deny_repeatedly(); } else { investigate(); } ?>
Homage to Catalin Haldan

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10066
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:51 am)

The quote is strictly from memory ....

Ah yes.
So the 'Americanisms' then were Haldan and not a Brit.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Haldan
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:56 pm
Location: <secret>
Contact:

Postby Haldan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:02 pm)

Here is the full quote:

"We have had a good run for our money with this gas chamber story we have been putting about, but don't we run the risk that eventually we are going to be found out and when we are found out the collapse of that lie is going to bring down the whole of our psychological warfare effort with it. So isn't it rather time now to let it drift off by itself and concentrate on other lines that we're running."

That's not so far off, now is it.

-haldan
<?php if ($Holocaust == false ) {deny_repeatedly(); } else { investigate(); } ?>
Homage to Catalin Haldan

Richard Perle
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:45 am

Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:07 pm)

I decided to search for more information. The guy who found the document is Paul Norris (not Morris) and was working for Zündel.

In one memorandum, Victor Cavendish-Bentinck, the Chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, writes a handwritten minute to this effect: 'we have had a good run for our money with this gas chamber story we have been putting about, but don't we run the risk that eventually we are going to be found out and when we are found out the collapse of that lie is going to bring down the whole of our psychologicalwarfare effort with it. So isn't it rather time now to let it drift off by itself and concentrate on other lines that we're running'.


So Haldan has rather a good memory, it's very close to his rendition. But note that this isn't a verbatim quote either.

A search of google with relevant keywords will find the above information at various sources. Unfortunately nobody seems to have the document and even Irving's site has no mention of it, so it's value is limited for the time being.

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2394
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:46 pm)

That might explain the lack of holocaust publicity in the first 22 years after the war. Maybe the plan was to let it drift off. Finkelstein and Kevin MacDonald write about how until 1967, it wasn't that much talked about even in the Jewish community. Finkelstein and MacDonald both give incredible examples showing how it wasn't even on Jewish people's mind anywhere to the extent it is now.

User avatar
Hotzenplotz
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:09 pm

Postby Hotzenplotz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:18 pm)

To come back to the main topic of this thread:
Samuel Crowell in his "The Gas Chamber of Sherlock Holmes" gives a terrific analysis of how the gas chamber narrative came into being.

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/SC/sh.html

I have read only the first chapters so far. Chapter two starts with the first rumours and reports about gas chambers that were given in 1942 and follows closely the development and elaboration of the extermation claim through the years '43 and '44. All the varieties of mass murder (gas van, cyanide, steam chambers, electrocution) are traced back to their origin. Very enlightening.

The table of contents looks very promising also. Lyle Burkhead of geniebusters.org calls this the most important work of holocaust revisionism.

Bergmann
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 382
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:29 pm

Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:40 pm)

elvistheelf wrote:Please provide provenance for this alleged "document". Without provenance it is utterly worthless as there is no proof that it:

1. exists

2. is genuine (if it does exist).

Try to apply the "rules of evidence" that you apply to the "other side" to your own sources.

Elvis

Maybe you should first start proving to us the existence of the alleged homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz/Birkenau. All the Nizkor and THHP people do is criticising revisionists for this and that error. But I find nothing on these and similar sites of solid proof for the homicidal gas chambers.

And if someone would dig up the document by Cavendish Bendict, the predictable answers by Holocausters would be:

"So?
So what!
The man is a known anti-Semitic, hidden Nazi or Hitler lover/white washer.
etc., etc."

We have been through this thousands of times.

Come up with solid proof, material and documentary and forensic evidence for these gas chambers. That would be sufficient.

georgesmiley
Member
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:44 pm

Re: Who invented the "Gas Chambers"?

Postby georgesmiley » 5 years 10 months ago (Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:59 am)

Regarding the document by Cavendish-Bentinck see:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.info/decrypts/Cavendish_Bentinck.pdf

Problematic for revisionists is his assertion that Germans were doing away with any jews unfit for manual labour (except that weren't otherwise there would not have been children in the camps)

7 August, 1943
“In my opinion it is incorrect to describe Polish information regarding German atrocities as “trustworthy.’ The Poles, and to a far greater extent the Jews, tend to exaggerate German atrocities in order to stoke us up. They seem to have succeeded.

Mr Allen and myself have both followed German atrocities quite closely. I do not believe that there is any evidence which would be accepted in a Law Court that Polish children have been killed on the spot by Germans when their parents were being deported to work in Germany, nor that Polish children have been sold to German settlers. As regards putting Poles to death in gas chambers, I do not believe that there is any evidence that this has been done, There have been many stories to this effect, and we have played them up, in P.W.E. [Psy Warfare Executive] rumours without believing that they had any foundation. At any rate there is far less evidence than exists for the mass murder of Polish officers by the Russians at Katyn. On the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for
manual labour.


I think that we weaken our case against the Germans by publicly giving credence to atrocity stories for which we have no evidence. These mass executions in gas chambers remind me of the story of employment of human corpses during the last war for the manufacture of fat, which was a grotesque lie and led to the true stories of German enormities being brushed aside as being mere propaganda...”

(signed) V Cavendish-Bentinck


There follows commentary on this

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3497
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Who invented the "Gas Chambers"?

Postby Hektor » 5 years 3 months ago (Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:07 pm)

georgesmiley wrote:Regarding the document by Cavendish-Bentinck see:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.info/decrypts/Cavendish_Bentinck.pdf

Problematic for revisionists is his assertion that Germans were doing away with any jews unfit for manual labour (except that weren't otherwise there would not have been children in the camps)

.... As regards putting Poles to death in gas chambers, I do not believe that there is any evidence that this has been done, There have been many stories to this effect, and we have played them up, in P.W.E. [Psy Warfare Executive] rumours without believing that they had any foundation. At any rate there is far less evidence than exists for the mass murder of Polish officers by the Russians at Katyn. On the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for
manual labour.


I think that we weaken our case against the Germans by publicly giving credence to atrocity stories for which we have no evidence. These mass executions in gas chambers remind me of the story of employment of human corpses during the last war for the manufacture of fat, which was a grotesque lie and led to the true stories of German enormities being brushed aside as being mere propaganda...”

(signed) V Cavendish-Bentinck


There follows commentary on this


That's essentially the argument the Holo bloggers here are posing:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ndish.html

Mr. Allen and myself have both followed German atrocities quite closely. I do not believe that there is any evidence which would be accepted in a Law Court that Polish children have been killed on the spot by Germans when their parents were being deported to work in Germany, nor that Polish children have been sold to German settlers. As regards putting Poles to death in gas chambers, I do not believe there is any evidence that this has been done. There may have been stories to this effect, and we have played them up in P.W.E. rumours without believing that they had any foundation. At any rate there is far less evidence than exists for the mass murder of Polish officers by the Russians at Katyn.
Moreover, Cavendish-Bentinck went on to state that:
On the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy the Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour.
Cavendish-Bentinck therefore, far from expressing the view that the systematic extermination of Jews was a lie, stated unequivocally that systematic extermination of Jews unfit for labour was taking place.

How have deniers responded to this exposure of Irving's lie? Typically, not only do they perpetuate it, but they falsely present Irving's paraphrase as a direct quotation of Cavendish-Bentinck's minutes. For example, see K0nsl's site here.

mmmh, if honesty is such a big issue for them, why did they leave out this part:
think that we weaken our case against the Germans by publicly giving credence to atrocity stories for
which we have no evidence. These mass executions in gas chambers remind me of the story of employment
of human corpses during the last war for the manufacture of fat, which was a grotesque lie and led to the
true stories of German enormities being brushed aside as being mere propaganda...”


Also:" stated unequivocally that systematic extermination of Jews unfit for labour was taking place." They seem to ignore that "are out to destroy" is different from "are destroying" or "have destroyed" with "destroying" being a rather equivocal ambiguous term. It seems logic isn't their strongest point.

Anyway I'm trying to get access to the records since there may be far more interesting info:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/C2791795 unfortunately not downloadable

There is also also an Auschwitz file:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/C2808481 same problem.
And one on leaflets you got to pay for:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/C6564647

Right now I'm scanning for anything informative that is somehow downloadable.

User avatar
Horhug
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:01 am

Re: Who invented the "Gas Chambers"?

Postby Horhug » 5 years 3 months ago (Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:15 pm)

Hektor

The UK's National Archives at Kew do provide a paid for service, whereby documents can be requested, scanned and emailed.

See here:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/reco ... ervice.htm


.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests