Himmler's note infers Hitler knew of liquidation ?

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10037
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 5:23 pm)

The explanations that go against strained interpretations of 'extermination' make it logical that no claimed 'extermination' occurred
R. Perle makes some good points in this thread, as do I .... ofcourse.

Let's all step back for a minute. Here we have another tortured interpretation by the 'holocau$t' Industry, when all along, if the story was true, there would be thousands of incriminating original documents, not things like this nebulus memo. And the Germans could not have eliminated entire trainloads without there being trainloads of physical evidence.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

semblance7
Member
Member
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 7:23 pm

Postby semblance7 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 5:39 pm)

RP et al

I suggest (and, please, I have no agenda) that your position remains 'weak'.

Hannover has said, paraphrasing, "let's debate the facts"

Fact that I found is that Himmler refers to liquidation in direct correlation (you think?) to a jew-train transport.

Everything that RP postulates to 'remedy' this is pure conjecture (sans-facts)

(only probing)

semblance7
Member
Member
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 7:23 pm

Postby semblance7 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 5:45 pm)

Hannover

Waiting - Will it be check-mate then?

Let's debate facts (as you've suggested)

this nebulus memo

??? WHAT ? by Himmler's own hand ... ?

(my only intention is to engage others in a spirited discourse)
Last edited by semblance7 on Thu May 19, 2005 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10037
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 6:18 pm)

Semblance:

How do you know that Himmler was referring to a trainload of Jews to be 'exterminated'? Perhaps he was referring to what was thought to be Molotov's son. Wasn't it an order that communist officials would be executed when caught? Yes. So Himmler may well have been stating that Molotov's alleged son was not to be executed. There was a war with the Soviet Union, you realize, yes?

Claims of 'trainloads of Jews exterminated' is laughable when no evidence exists for their execution. Alleged crimes require evidence, dear Semblance.

Where are the mass graves for these 'trainloads'? Do you have them? Does the 'holocau$t' Industry? Nope.

There are many logical explantions for this memo other than 'exterminating trainloads of Jews'. Much more logical than your unsupported extermination thesis.

You seem to be trying to hold onto something that you cannot support.

Indeed, just the facts, Jack.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10037
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 6:26 pm)

Yes, "this nebulus memo". Nebulus in the sense that it is a personal note written in a disjointed, quick form. Could mean many things other than 'extermiantion' ... for which there is no evidence.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

semblance7
Member
Member
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 7:23 pm

Postby semblance7 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 6:42 pm)

OK !!! Thanks Hannover - and, mind you, please, I am dispassionate

I began this thread with the question (and I do mean it in that way) about Hitler / Himmler and Himmler's own note re liquidation.

Hannover said
How do you know that Himmler was referring to a trainload of Jews to be 'exterminated'

I don't know (do you?)

You continue by saying
So Himmler may well have been stating that Molotov's alleged son was not to be executed.

Well, I guess (MAYBE)

Claims of 'trainloads of Jews exterminated' is laughable when no evidence exists for their execution. Alleged crimes require evidence, dear Semblance.

OK, (dear Hannover), but in this thread I'm starting small and working my way up. You, without speaking to my proof (?) of Himmler's reference to liquidation / extermination (by his own hand), are making a leap toward a 'grand generalization' that it wasn't 'big' enough to be real.

Surely, Hannover, would you grant that this question remains grey?

Regards

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10037
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 6:47 pm)

Surely, Hannover, would you grant that this question remains grey?

Not grey at all. There is no evidence for exterminating trainloads of Jews. Therefore another explanation is logical. How simple can it be?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Richard Perle
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:45 am

Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 6:47 pm)

Well, unless there is some way to link Jekelius with that train of Jews (either him being on it or there being a chance that he could be on it) and a way to create a believable scenario where Himmler would think that this Viennese Dr could be a son of Molotov, then I don't find the obvious analysis of the memo to be plausible. Of course we'd have to know more about Jekelius and his background to be sure, and I think this knowledge would make or break all theories on this memo. Remember, Molotov was around 50 at this time, so knowing how old Jekelius was would be interesting.

If the Jekelius/Molotov link remains unbelivable then we can safely say that the liquidation part may not relate to the trainload of Jews mentioned above it.
Last edited by Richard Perle on Thu May 19, 2005 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bergmann
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 382
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:29 pm

Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 6:51 pm)

semblance7 wrote: Best I can derive so far is that the Himmler note of 'non-liquidation' remains open to interpretation...

Isn’t all history based on interpretations?

If one believes, that the Germans killed every Jew in sight, then this person will probably interprete Himmler’s entry, that the transports of Jews to the Ostland were exterminated .

If one is more skeptical abou this, like myself, I would need further material evidence, like the excavations of the massgraves. Well, at least some excavations.

In the summer of 1996, the city of Marijampol in Lithuania decided to erect a memorial in memory of the tens of thousands of Jews who were allegedly murdered by the Einsatzgruppen. In order to erect it at the proper place, an attempt was made to locate the exact position of the mass graves. Excavations were therefore carried out at those locations which were identified by witnesses, but - oh wonder - not a single trace of any mass graves could be found. - Lietuvos Rytas (Lithuanian newspaper), August 21, 1996 Further excavations in the vicinity of the alleged locations of mass murder did not result in anything else but untouched virgin soil.

semblance7
Member
Member
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 7:23 pm

Postby semblance7 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 7:01 pm)

Gentlemen, all,

Hannover says
Not grey at all. There is no evidence for exterminating trainloads of Jews. Therefore another explanation is logical. How simple can it be?
In the macro-view perhaps so. But, Hannover, would you grant that per Himmler's own words his meaning could have meant "what it sounds like" (liquidation) (even if it was just that one trainload)?

semblance7
Member
Member
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 7:23 pm

Postby semblance7 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 7:46 pm)

Hannover
There is no evidence for exterminating trainloads of Jews
Could my thread be evidence for Himmler's intended 'halt' to the liquidation of 'a' trainload of jews?

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10037
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 8:23 pm)

Could my thread be evidence for Himmler's intended 'halt' to the liquidation of 'a' trainload of jews?

No. There is no evidence.

And I see you are now offering various meanings of this memo, hence it's "nebulus" nature.

Surely, if you think there were mass murders of Jews you can do better than this memo.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2385
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 10:03 pm)

Hi Semblance7,

Surely if the Nazis were so absent-minded as to leave a 7 ton pile of human hair in the middle of Auschwitz, then they would have also been absent-minded enough to leave incriminating documents all over Germany. Yet this is the best evidence you can come up with?

This document looks more like a haiku poem than proof the holocaust happened. :D

It seems like you'd like us all to admit that there is some grey area here, or that the memo is open to interpretation. Why? Do you have some agenda for proving the holocaust and this is step number 1 for doing that? If so, maybe it would be better to just come out and say it. What proof do you have that the holocaust happened? If this is your best shot, it's pretty weak. Maybe you have more. We have a mountain of evidence here on revforum that it didn't happen.

Yes, I'll admit that if I knew just a little about the holocaust from high school and t.v and Schindler's List and stuff, then I'd say that this memo points to the holocaust happening. That it points to a trainload of Jews being executed, probably because they were Jews. But the reason Hannover and others are not admitting that is we know much more about this subject.

And why is it that it's always a memo, a note, (not a letter) and with a word that has double meaning? Liquidation can mean death or it can also mean getting rid of items. Hence the big "liquidation sale" signs outside stores. Maybe it's the same in German.

They had zyklon B that they were using for "exterminating." It just so happens that zyklon B is an insecticide and "exterminating" often refers to bugs or rodents. "Liquidation", "extermination", "special handling"--why can't your side ever come up with a letter that is not nebulous?

And if your answer is that they were very good at being secretive, destroying documents, using codewords, then I'll have to refer you to that 7 ton pile of human hair at Auschwitz.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10037
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu May 19, 2005 11:44 pm)

Yet this is the best evidence you can come up with?
This document looks more like a haiku poem than proof the holocaust happened.

Great bit. I'm still laughing. :lol:

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Iggy
Member
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:43 pm
Location: Illinois

Postby Iggy » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri May 20, 2005 1:21 am)

I think it's relevant that Stalin's son Yakov was taken prisoner by the Germans and he was not executed. Given that Molotov was the Foreign Minister, his son was probably afforded the same treatment.

Notably, Stalin refused a prisoner exchange for his son and he died in a KZ.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests