Silencing Himmler / What were they afraid he would say?

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Carto's Cutlass Supreme
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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:57 pm)

But didn't Irving mention a big disappointment with Bellinger? There is a side article in the Himmler article:
David Irving recalls:

IN 1999 my publishing imprint Focal Point Publications invited Californian writer Joe Bellinger to speak at Cincinnati on The Strange Death of Heinrich Himmler. He came to the same conclusions.
Impressed by his narrative there we paid him over $11,000 to enable him to travel to Washington and London to complete his research.
He never made those trips, never finished his manuscript, and unfortunately did not learn of the files which have now been released.

THE "silencing" of Himmler raises again the question of whether Churchill really had been negotiating with Himmler for nearly a year.
In August 1944 the head of the secret service showed him at least one document "from Himmler," and Churchill assured the secret service chief that after reading it he had safely destroyed it: 'Himmler telegram kept and destroyed by me. WSC.31.viii'.
Hitler was evidently aware of what Himmler was up to, because on September 12 the Reichsführer discussed with Hitler "peace feelers to Russia or Britain."
A few days later, however, on September 18, 1944, the British intercepted a German intelligence signal that Himmler 'forbids by W/T (wireless traffic) all contact with English since their offers are bluff' -- as no doubt they were. See PRO file HW.1/3196.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:18 am)

CCS asks:
But didn't Irving mention a big disappointment with Bellinger? There is a side article in the Himmler article:


Please actually read what I said. Again:
The documents are supported by other facts which Irving mentions AND supported by blockbuster information that is to be read/seen in Joseph Bellinger's soon to be released book on Himmler; note that Bellinger is mentioned in Irving's comments.

So then, disappointed with what? The fact that Bellinger's book will come out first? And obviously Bellinger finished his manuscript, his book is due any day now. What's not said is who discovered what, and when .... plus other details.

And back to my other point; lot's of other information from Bellinger and Irving support the documents that were linked to in the initial post of this thread. Himmler was murdered, there can be no doubt about it now. Talk about 'convergence of evidence'. You're going to love Bellinger's work. The Germans appropriately get the first taste.

As said, I'll start a thread on this later.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:21 am)

I look forward to this Bellinger thread.

Note: Irving is now linking to this thread from his front page:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/index.html

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Postby neocon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:19 am)

Who found these documents? "Martin Allen"?

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/de ... immler.htm

At the Public Records Office at Kew, London, Martin Allen found a note dated May 10th 1945 from John Wheeler-Bennett at the Foreign Office to Robert Bruce Lockhart at PWE. The note was marked 'Personal and Secret'. It states:

http://www.books.co.uk/warlord/1861058896.html

So Irving just sent someone over to scan the original Documents?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:09 am)

What documents? I don't see the documents that are on Irving's site.

The Himmler photo shown is commonplace; not to mention the author's absurd, thoroughly debunked text.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby neocon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:30 am)

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/de ... immler.htm

The content of Irvings Documents is quoted in the Text:

At the Public Records Office at Kew, London, Martin Allen found a note dated May 10th 1945 from John Wheeler-Bennett at the Foreign Office to Robert Bruce Lockhart at PWE. The note was marked 'Personal and Secret'. It states:

"We cannot allow Himmler to take to the stand in any prospective prosecution, or indeed allow him to be interrogated by the Americans. Steps will therefore have to be taken to eliminate him as soon as he falls into our hands. Please give the matter some thought as, if we are to take action, we will have to expedite such an act with some haste.

I have arranged for Mr. Thomas to go for a fortnight"

What happened next, Allen argues, is open to contention. Allen has found a coded telegram in a Foreign Office file at Kew. It is from a 'Mr. Thomas'. It states:

"Further to my orders, we successfully intercepted HH last night at Luneberg before he could be interrogated. As instructed, action was taken to silence him permanently."

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:20 pm)

By the way:
The Irving site with the new Himmler document is suppressed by the German 'Google.de'. I wonder what the thought police there is afraid of? People feel like being in an anti-Fascist Kindergarden.

These documents do not seem to be forgeries. Facsimiles are printed in this German book:

Martin Allen: Churchills Friedensfalle. Das Geheimnis des
Heß-Fluges 1941. 432 Seiten, gebunden, 70 Photos und Dokumente, EUR
34,80. Zu bestellen bei NE-Buchdienst, Postfach 2554, 96414 Coburg, Tel.
(0 95 61) 80 78 0 oder bei www.andromeda-buecher.de

*In dem Buch sind die Dokumente als Anhang!!!!*
(The documents are included in the book as attachments)

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:16 am)

Indeed, it would seem that Irving is not the 'discoverer' of the documents. Ofcourse, that may be beside the point, since it is the fact that Himmler was murdered to shut him up that really matters.

Monday, I'll start a new thread on Bellinger, his Himmler work, what he found vs. what Irving claims to have found, and various details of the interaction between Bellinger and Irving. A lot to talk about.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:50 am)

Irving gives credit on his site for the discoveries to Steve Kippax, a London researcher.

Irving says there is no question about the authenticity of the documents which were faxed to him.

The "mainstream" media is still struggling with how to handle the story. Nothing has appeared yet it seems. That tells you how important it is.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:02 pm)

see here for more information on Bellinger's work on Himmler and the Irving connection:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2202

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:31 am)

Brendan Bracken, whose name appears on the papers was a key player. The Tipperary born Bracken was a lifelong intimate of Churchill and had many a story to tell. All his personal papers were destroyed the day following his death "at this request" we are told. Interesting.

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Postby code yellow » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:35 pm)

:) Irving's reputation for discovering and authenticating genuine documents is part of his argument for his research and published works. I doubt he would announce these documents if he had the slightest doubt about their authenticity. OK, he did get a little over apprehensive with the Hitler diaries, but so did other big historians (Hugh Trevor Roper). Anyone
would have. Let's face it, authentic Hitler diaries would have been the most important find in the history of mankind.

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Postby Ajax » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:35 pm)

These documents are disturbing on a number of levels. First there is the issue of Himmler's contact with Churchill, and of course the rather convenient doing away with the man who would have stood at the dock and disputed the Holocau$t claims.

Then there is the contemporary issue. If the Government could get away with this, what are they getting away with now? What is happening right under our noses, even as I write this? Iraq, and the reprehensible conduct of Mr Blair, instantly come to mind.

I will be more than interested to see what happens as more of this puzzle is pieced together.
Scour the surface throughly until it is glistening...

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:59 am)

It isn't clear what Irving's relationship is with the person who discovered the documents. Reading the language on Irving's site it would seem that they were not connected. Odd.

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:47 am)

Himmler’s voluntary surrender to the British seems to indicate, that the man must have had a clear conscious, i.e. he gave no instructions to Höss and Globocnik to establish extermination camps with homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor and Chelmno to kill millions of Jews, and he gave no instructions to the Einsatzgruppen commanders like Jeckeln to massacre tens of thousands of Jews in the east and in Riga, Latvia etc.
Else he would have taken the poison pill right away.

The Holocaust card house seems to collapse.


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