Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Balsamo » 6 years 9 months ago (Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:01 pm)

Hi Hannover,

I am trying to stay on the subject which is Goebbles diaries and its implications. Should every single topic in which i step in be changes into prooving the gas chamber?
Goebbels does not mention gas chamber, but a barbaric procedure which will result in the fact that there will not remains much of the Jews, so gas chambers are not the subject here.

Please define your "Solution". Does it include the alleged homicidal gas chambers? Does it include the alleged massive Einsatzgruppen shooting into pits. If so for either, I ask that you produce proof.


In the context of the subject, the "Solution" is the ethnic cleansing concerning the European Jews (abgeshoben). I use second part of the Solution, because the first one was the one that brought the Jews into the GG. As said above, no gas chambers and no einsatzgruppen said to be part of the process as described in Goebbels diary.
I use the term Shoah because it is the original term, and more exact that the Hollywood based Holocaust and the "Story-line" you are obsessed with.


Have you even read this thread?
'German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew transits'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7298

The British decrypts make it blatantly clear that masses of Jews were transfered out of Auschwitz.


Nope, not yet, but i will.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hannover » 6 years 9 months ago (Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:42 pm)

Balsamo,

YOU posted "Solution" in upper case, as in "The Final Solution"; which in today's lexicon incorporates the fantasy of "gas chambers, the allegation of massive einsatzgruppen pit shootings, and of course, the alleged "6M".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution
Why are you reluctant to address the seminal issues that you believe in? And we know that you do believe.

YOU used the term "Shoah", which also incorporates the fantasy of "gas chambers, the allegation of massive einsatzgruppen pit shootings, and of course, the alleged "6M".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoah_%28film%29
Enough of your "original term", and "more exact" nonsense.

You're trying to do a Nick Terry. Nibble at the edges while dodging the big issues within the 'holocaust' storyline. And yes, I am obsessive about truth. Too bad others are not.

One must ask why a 'holocaust' believer cannot produce proof for his 'holocaust' belief.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Bob » 6 years 9 months ago (Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:04 pm)

Balsamo wrote:Of course he was, but as an outsider. mentioning Lublin is no wonder as it was already a center of regroupment for Jews in 1939-40...as the General Government was not part of the Reich, thus the Jews there were already outside the Reich (Germany)...
Here we are already in the second part of the Solution and the removal from the occupied Poland...


We agree, he was familiar with it, good.

The rest is irrelevant, we and Göbbels are debating deportations from Lublin, not to Lublin or some concentration of Jews in Lublin, so history of this place is irrelevant, my point was about proving that he was familiar with deportation policy from this place.

Balsamo wrote:You can understand it as you want. I understand that this second deportation is a barbaric procedure that cannot be described, now of course if you can show me in anyway a convincing destination and what eastward means, then fine.


But we are not debating about how we understand to something, if you disagree with provided explanation or evidence, tell me what is wrong or refute it, I do not accept telling me “understand it as you want, I will understand it as I want”, I prefer to reach some conclusion and not this since this looks more like a dodging.

I am sorry, but Göbbels did not say anything closer about these deported Jews, thus I cannot tell you their final destination.

Balsamo wrote:Meanwhile, if to liquidate means transfer, then all 100% of those Jews were concerned, and there would have been no need for Joseph to make a distinction. But how other exemple can you provide were used to deport people (not the Getthos, i mean people) ?


But I did not say that liquidation in this case means “transfer”, i.e. - every common transfer, because this would be a nonsense. I repeatedly stated, that liquidation in this case means “transfer/deportation/removing to the east and they will never return back - moved out of the GG and they will never return back." thus he had to make a distinction since some Jews able to work will not be deported/liquidated but used for labor, and the rest will be deported in accordance with their policy quoted in the document related to Belzec and Lublin Jews and Göbbels was familiar with it, admitted by you, see above.

Balsamo wrote:No, not criminal, just too barabric to be described...


This is not written in the diary.

Balsamo wrote:I unfortunatly don't have the second volume of his diaries yet...but i would really appreciate if you could find a quote from him describing the deportation of the Jews of Berlin as a barbaric procedure.
I doubt very much that he was in Lublin to witness the process...i maybe wrong...but could be that he just relying on hearsays.


I doubt he described what this barbaric procedure means, I guess we would have known about it already, but I provided you with my explanation what he probably considered as barbaric. If he didn´t witness it and based i on hearsay, then this passage in diary is even less important.

Balsamo wrote:It does not fit. Auschwitz, Birkenau, Maidanek, (as well as Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno and Belzec) were all in the GG. I am not aware that those places were evacuated to clean the German sphere of influence[...]


Auschwitz and Auschwitz-Birkenau was not in the General Government. Chelmno, again, not in the General Government, both located in the Greater Germany[1] I have noticed that I wrongly placed Chelmno to GG, when I included Chelmno in the brackets together with Belzec and I did not realized that brackets refers exclusively to the GG. I am sorry.

Who said they were evacuated and for what reason? Me not, thus I cannot say anything about it.

T-B-S-CH served as transit camps, i.e. as points which take care of evacuation from other places. Auschwitz and Majdanek were concentration camps and labor camps, but they served as transit camps too.

Balsamo wrote:[...]the German sphere of influence, which is what by the way ? Occupied territories up to Stalingrad ? Do you find it logic to move million of Jews - considered as terrorist on the eastern front - to the very same eastern front ?


No, when i spoke about evacuation from German sphere, I meant Greater Germany and General Government. Since I didn´t say anything about deportation of Jews on the eastern front, I cannot answer.

Balsamo wrote:Goebbels was quite a precise man, if he would have wanted to say "not much will remains of the Jews in the GG, he would have said it, and proven wrong...


I consider as nonsense to repeat what he already said in the preceding sentence and what is clear from the context: “[...]deported eastward from the Government-General. The procedure is pretty barbaric, and one that beggars description, and there’s not much left of the Jews.

When I apply your logic, his entry in the diary should have to looks like this:

“Beginning with Lublin the Jews are now being deported eastward [name of some location] from the Government-General. The procedure is pretty barbaric in Lublin and Government-General, and one that beggars description in Lublin and Government-General, and there’s not much left of the Jews in Lublin and Government-General. Broadly speaking one can probably say that sixty percent of them will have to be liquidated in [name of some location], while only forty percent can be put to work in [name of some location].”

Also he didn´t write a report for others, but a personal diary. Do you have a diary? Do you often write entries and thinks “I must clarify it enough for others who will read my diary”?

Balsamo wrote:And again, the fact that he still speaks about Madagascar 1942 - A Plan from the Polish Government in 1937 - only shows how little his role and influence regarding those matters were. So maybe he just spoke to another source the days before...who knows? There are may times in his memoirs when he quotes silly numbers btw...Simple truth that he just did not know.


Plan from the Polish Government from 1937? Do not know anything about this, feel free to source it.

Madagascar plan as a location for “Final Solution” was as a project abandoned or put to rest by the Germans on February 10, 1942 [2] and Göbbels´entry is from March 7, 1942 and he used word “maybe” or “say” and placed this solution after the war, thus he was probably familiar with the news about this plan during this time, but he still personally considered it as a one possibility after the war.

Thus Göbbels´ entry is not silly at all and he knew it very well.

Balsamo wrote:Considering this, i found the ganglere approach to be a more efficient approach [...]


But his adopted theory from other user about how the diary or maybe only some passages are fake does not hold much water, i already raised some objections, I am waiting to see them addressed. I am also missing some explanation why my theory or actually a theory explained previously by Carlo Mattogno is wrong.

Balsamo wrote:Goebbels was in no position to interfere with the Shoah process. All he could do is to get some information from some people more close to the case and write them down.


As the Shoah didn´t exist and there is no connection, is this irrelevant, what is relevant, he was familiar with the deportation policy as shown, this is important to understand to meanings of these passages which are in accordance with it.

P.S. - I am still missing some answers from you:

Can you provide me with evidence for your claim that 60% of these people will lost their life and that was the meaning of that passage?

My simple question for you, do you consider as barbaric the aspects of deportation listed by me?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes

[1]Maps - jewishvirtuallibrary.org , ushmm.org
[2]Note by Fritz Rademacher from the Foreign Ministry, NG-5770.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby spaceboy » 6 years 9 months ago (Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:09 pm)

I feel really stumped now. I don't actually own the diaries, so I can only read excerpts from online, and I came across this one for the first time:

May 24, 1942

We see in this compilation [of facts] how correct our Jewish policy is, and how necessary it is to continue, in the most radical way, our old course of action, and to ensure that the 40,000 Jews still in Berlin, who in reality are freed felons with nothing left to lose, are quickly either concentrated or evacuated. The best thing, of course, would be liquidation

So, it's apparent from this entry that there's a distinction being made between concentrated, evacuated, and liquidation.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hannover » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:07 pm)

spaceboy wrote:I feel really stumped now. I don't actually own the diaries, so I can only read excerpts from online, and I came across this one for the first time:

May 24, 1942

We see in this compilation [of facts] how correct our Jewish policy is, and how necessary it is to continue, in the most radical way, our old course of action, and to ensure that the 40,000 Jews still in Berlin, who in reality are freed felons with nothing left to lose, are quickly either concentrated or evacuated. The best thing, of course, would be liquidation

So, it's apparent from this entry that there's a distinction being made between concentrated, evacuated, and liquidation.

Source please.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:47 pm)

spaceboy wrote:...are quickly either concentrated or evacuated. The best thing, of course, would be liquidation

So, it's apparent from this entry that there's a distinction being made between concentrated, evacuated, and liquidation.

Assuming this is a valid source, we have only established that liquidation has a third meaning, more radical than the other two. It would make perfect sense if it meant complete removal from Europe.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:56 pm)

Here is one source:

http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... jews_2.php

May 24, 1942 (II.4.350, 355)
"We see in this compilation [of facts] how correct our Jewish policy is, and how necessary it is to continue, in the most radical way, our old course of action, and to ensure that the 40,000 Jews still in Berlin, who in reality are freed felons with nothing left to lose, are quickly either concentrated (konzentriert) or evacuated (evakuiert).The best thing, of course, would be liquidation (Liquidierung).
[The Führer] recognizes in Stalin a man of stature who towers above the democratic figures of the Anglo-Saxon powers. He naturally also knows that the Jews are determined, under all circumstances, to bring victory in this war, because they know that defeat also means for them personal liquidation (Liquidation).It is a world-struggle of enormous dimensions that we must confront if the Reich is not to be destroyed (zerstört).Only now are we clear what Stalin, as a front-man for the Jews, had in fact prepared in this war against the Reich."

Mr. Dalton comments:

"Heavy use of ‘liquidation’ in the past few passages. Goebbels further seems to here distinguish this from the process of evacuation. Either it is a different form or degree of movement (perhaps en masse), or it may in fact refer to killings, at least in the current context."

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Bob » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:23 pm)

Source is article from Thomas Dalton on inconvenienthistory.com (chim-pa was faster)

According to Dalton, word “liquidierung”/liquidation appears there eight times, thus this is only one example from many, nothing more. Each example needs own treatment in proper context, this word does not have one universal meaning of course.

What is surprising, this entry from May 24, 1942 is not repeatedly quoted like entry from March 24 and is obviously quite unknown, but why? Simply because it contradicts extermination of Jews since he stated that the “40,000 Jews still in Berlin, who in reality are freed felons with nothing left to lose, are quickly either concentrated (konzentriert) or evacuated (evakuiert).” thus not automatically exterminated in accordance with extermination policy in Auschwitz, Chelmno, Belzec or Sobibór as is stated by narrative. He did not say a word about make a laborers from them and to employ them like in his March 24 entry, so if they were not employable, they would be exterminated, but this is contradicted by Göbbels. It is no surprise they do not quote this passage.

Explanation from Kingfisher is a good example, the best thing would be complete removal from Europe/continent as stated in his entry on March 7, not only concentration or evacuation to the east, but complete removal - liquidation - from Europe/continent. He already informed us that this is crucial to ensure peace in the Europe, but obviously this is not possible at that time, so only two realizable possibilities are mentioned by him, concentration or evacuation. He simply expressed what is and what would be the best possibility according to him - something like “I going to buy a new car, Toyota or Mitsubishi. The best car, of course, would be Ferrari.” - but I cannot buy Ferrari now.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby spaceboy » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:39 pm)

chim-pa and Bob beat me to it. Inconvenient History was the only place I could even find that diary entry. Oddly, Nizkor doesn't even list that entry on their page about Goebbels diary excerpts.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:08 pm)

Bob wrote:What is surprising, this entry from May 24, 1942 is not repeatedly quoted like entry from March 24 and is obviously quite unknown, but why? Simply because it contradicts extermination of Jews since he stated that the “40,000 Jews still in Berlin, who in reality are freed felons with nothing left to lose, are quickly either concentrated (konzentriert) or evacuated (evakuiert).” thus not automatically exterminated in accordance with extermination policy in Auschwitz, Chelmno, Belzec or Sobibór as is stated by narrative. He did not say a word about make a laborers from them and to employ them like in his March 24 entry, so if they were not employable, they would be exterminated, but this is contradicted by Göbbels. It is no surprise they do not quote this passage.


Actually it does not contradict the "narrative", at least not as it is usually presented in the latest main stream historiography. According to, for example, Longerich (Holocaust, p. 344), the systematic killing of the German Jews was not given the go-ahead until April 1942.

Edit. Now that I read the dates correctly, in a sense it does seem to contradict Longerich, as that quote is after the claimed "go-ahead" was given. Longerich is not very exact, he writes "around April", but obviously means before May 24.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Bob » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:45 pm)

chim-pa wrote:
Bob wrote:What is surprising, this entry from May 24, 1942 is not repeatedly quoted like entry from March 24 and is obviously quite unknown, but why? Simply because it contradicts extermination of Jews since he stated that the “40,000 Jews still in Berlin, who in reality are freed felons with nothing left to lose, are quickly either concentrated (konzentriert) or evacuated (evakuiert).” thus not automatically exterminated in accordance with extermination policy in Auschwitz, Chelmno, Belzec or Sobibór as is stated by narrative. He did not say a word about make a laborers from them and to employ them like in his March 24 entry, so if they were not employable, they would be exterminated, but this is contradicted by Göbbels. It is no surprise they do not quote this passage.


Actually it does not contradict the "narrative", at least not as it is usually presented in the latest main stream historiography. According to, for example, Longerich (Holocaust, p. 344), the systematic killing of the German Jews was not given the go-ahead until April 1942.


His entry is from May 24, 1942. He also said “40,000 Jews still in Berlin” - that imply that some portion of them was already removed from Berlin or Germany and these 40,000 are remains of larger portion.

Alleged extermination policy to exterminate European Jewry crystallized in late summer of 1941 according to most historians. [1] Chelmno (December 1941), Belzec (March 1942), Sobibór (May 1942) - they were allegedly pure extermination camps and they all already operated in May 1942, Treblinka and location for this alleged extermination camp was found and determined in late April or early May 1942 [2], thus this camp was planned at latest already in April. In Auschwitz, there already operated alleged gas chambers in Krematorium I and alleged Bunker I was put into operation in March 1942.[3] or in May according to Pressac.[4]

As I said, his passage contradicts alleged extermination of Jewry which was almost in full swing.

p.s. - It took me a while to write my comment, so I noticed your edit after I posted my comment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes

[1]Debórah Dwork, Robert Jan van Pelt, Auschwitz 1270 to the present, W.W. Norton & Company Inc., 1996, p. 280.
[2]Yitzak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death camps, Indiana University Press, Bloomington, 1987, p. 37
[3]Danuta Czech, Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945, Henry Holt and Company, New York, 1990, p. 146.
[4]Jean-Claude Pressac Die Krematorien von Auschwitz. Die Technik des Massenmordes, R. Piper GmbH & Co. KG, Munchen 1994, second edition 1995, p. 49; Jean-Claude Pressac, Les crématoires d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse, CNRS Editions, Paris, 1993, p. 39.
Last edited by Bob on Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Balsamo » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:45 pm)

Kingfisher said
Assuming this is a valid source, we have only established that liquidation has a third meaning, more radical than the other two. It would make perfect sense if it meant complete removal from Europe.


Really ?
Does it make sense?
Why then just don't he use the term "removal from Europe" ? Knowing that using the term liquididation, Jospeh takes the risk to be misunderstood by sillies like me;
Maybe he wanted our language to evoluate...
Don't say, "i am going in America for Xmas", but..."Next Xmas, i am going to liquidate myself over the Ocean in America"
Don't say, "my neighboor had to move to London for his Job", but "My neighboor had to liquidate himself to London for his Job"
Wouldn't be fun if in airports, the lovely voice would annouce "Please, all passagers to be liquidated to New York, please proceed to gate C"
Come on, here we have again : Concentrated (ghetto), evacuate ( transfer) and liquidate in the same paragraphe, and still one should understand it as having the same meaning?

Anyway, i have order the first and second volume of those diaries, owning only the third one.

BOB,
Occupied Poland is the GG...the first step i was talking about was the removal and transfer of Jews from the Warthegau (Reich) to GG (occupied Poland, and Lublin), so yes From Lublin to somewhere between Ukraine and the eastern front...

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:56 pm)

Bob wrote:His entry is from May 24, 1942. He also said “40,000 Jews still in Berlin” - that imply that some portion of them was already removed from Berlin or Germany and these 40,000 are remains of larger portion.


Yes, it somewhat seems to contradict what Longerich writes, as I noted when I edited my post.

Bob wrote:
Alleged extermination policy to exterminate European Jewry crystallized in late summer of 1941 according to most historians.


Sure, even if some argue it was a bit later. But here we are dealing with German Jews, group that most historians seem to think were an exception. See for example Browning here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... il/303113/

"When the first trainloads of Jews were murdered in Kovno and Riga, rumors came back to Germany and some people were upset. Himmler was certainly aware that there would be a qualitative difference in the indifference or acceptance of murdering Russian Jews as opposed to German Jews. Thus, after the first six trains of German Jews were murdered in late November and early December, that program was suspended for a while. The Jews deported in the spring of 1942 were initially sent to ghettos in Poland—in a sense "put on ice" for a while—and then sent on to death camps later. In the same way, Jews, particularly elderly ones, were sent to Theresienstadt first and then sent on to Auschwitz."

Outlining the policy and implementing it are, of course, two different things.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Balsamo » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:22 pm)

His entry is from May 24, 1942. He also said “40,000 Jews still in Berlin” - that imply that some portion of them was already removed from Berlin or Germany and these 40,000 are remains of larger portion.


No, actually, as for the Lodz Ghetto...the case of the Jews from Berlin is a special one...
Strangely, Hitler was affraid of his Capital city...Berlin never was a NSDAP stronghold, and the most of the National socialists there were closer to the left wing of the party (Strasser brothers and co)...So the Jews were evacuated carefully...70.000 thousands Jews were living in Berlin in 1941, so 30.000 thousands had already been evacuated by 1942...The last 5.000 were supposed to be evacuated at the end of the war, but a demonstration by Berliners kind of saved them...Most of those were half or a quarter Jews married to pure Germans and all of them were essential to the war production...the Berliner just said "zu weit is zu weit"...Goebbels speaks about it in his diaries, so i will try to find more about it.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Bob » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:13 pm)

Balsamo wrote:Really ?
Does it make sense?
Why then just don't he use the term "removal from Europe" ? Knowing that using the term liquididation, Jospeh takes the risk to be misunderstood by sillies like me;


But you have just created a time paradox, he did not know that Germany will lost the war and his personal diary will be used as some evidence about alleged extermination and every word will be twisted as much as possible to some criminal meaning.

Balsamo wrote:Don't say, "i am going in America for Xmas", but..."Next Xmas, i am going to liquidate myself over the Ocean in America"
Don't say, "my neighboor had to move to London for his Job", but "My neighboor had to liquidate himself to London for his Job"
Wouldn't be fun if in airports, the lovely voice would annouce "Please, all passagers to be liquidated to New York, please proceed to gate C"


I often hear from TV news like - high taxes will liquidate small businessmen...new measurements prepared by government will liquidate families with two or more children....mayor wants to liquidate illegal gypsy settlement...and etc. Do I need to be worried about some secret extermination or not?

Balsamo wrote:Come on, here we have again : Concentrated (ghetto), evacuate ( transfer) and liquidate in the same paragraphe, and still one should understand it as having the same meaning?


“According to Dalton, word “liquidierung”/liquidation appears there eight times, thus this is only one example from many, nothing more. Each example needs own treatment in proper context, this word does not have one universal meaning of course.”

Balsamo wrote:BOB,
Occupied Poland is the GG...the first step i was talking about was the removal and transfer of Jews from the Warthegau (Reich) to GG (occupied Poland, and Lublin), so yes From Lublin to somewhere between Ukraine and the eastern front..


This is related to...?

Balsamo wrote:No, actually, as for the Lodz Ghetto...the case of the Jews from Berlin is a special one...
Strangely, Hitler was affraid of his Capital city...Berlin never was a NSDAP stronghold, and the most of the National socialists there were closer to the left wing of the party (Strasser brothers and co)...So the Jews were evacuated carefully...70.000 thousands Jews were living in Berlin in 1941, so 30.000 thousands had already been evacuated by 1942...The last 5.000 were supposed to be evacuated at the end of the war, but a demonstration by Berliners kind of saved them...Most of those were half or a quarter Jews married to pure Germans and all of them were essential to the war production...the Berliner just said "zu weit is zu weit"...Goebbels speaks about it in his diaries, so i will try to find more about it.


I have no problem to accept that Berlin Jews were evacuated more carefully as opposed to others.

Balsamo wrote:Those who do are wrong!


Maybe you should tell this to them, you can start with Pelt and Dwork.

Feel free to start separated thread and tell me your version of alleged holocaust, I already asked you several times to tell me what is your position, mainly your opinions about gas chambers, but you did not respond so far, not even through PMs as I asked you.

chim-pa wrote:Sure, even if some argue it was a bit later. But here we are dealing with German Jews, group that most historians seem to think were an exception. See for example Browning here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... il/303113/

"When the first trainloads of Jews were murdered in Kovno and Riga, rumors came back to Germany and some people were upset. Himmler was certainly aware that there would be a qualitative difference in the indifference or acceptance of murdering Russian Jews as opposed to German Jews. Thus, after the first six trains of German Jews were murdered in late November and early December, that program was suspended for a while. The Jews deported in the spring of 1942 were initially sent to ghettos in Poland—in a sense "put on ice" for a while—and then sent on to death camps later. In the same way, Jews, particularly elderly ones, were sent to Theresienstadt first and then sent on to Auschwitz."


This invention works with a basic premise that extermination of Jews was known to public or to “some peoples” thanks to some rumors, these people not specified by Browning for some unknown reason believed these unknown rumors, considered them as truth and they were allegedly upset so Himmler was worried about how they will accept more murdered German Jews as opposed to extermination of Russian Jews. Right?

If these peoples were the Nazis who knew the "terrible secret" - Those who knew this alleged terrible secret could be hardly upset when this was allegedly the main goal of the Third Reich and only the perpetrators knew it, thus for them, no surprise.

If these peoples were the Nazis who didn´t know the "terrible secret" - Himmler could easily calm down these subordinates saying - "these rumors are propaganda, our Jews are doing well" or they would have been treated accordingly as their protests would be considered as a sabotage and is hard to imagine how low ranking officers not familiar with terrible secret at all will learn it through rumors and are going to consider them as truth despite Himmler´s or Hitler´s assurances. How one can be upset when somebody is determined to be murdered in January, but on the other side not upset when this somebody will be murdered in June, this simply does not make sense, something like - do not murder him this month, i will be upset, murder him some months later, then i will accept it.

If these people was a public - If this was really a secret operation as claimed, then public was only aware of deportations so there was no need to be worried about difference between murdering German Jews or Russian Jews as Browning claims as is nonsense to be worried about something what is known only to perpetrators. Public can be upset only about deportations, but Browning explicitly speaks about murdering and not about deportations. Of course, as far as I know, no newspapers or sources speaks about public protests against murdering of German Jews because of alleged rumors brought back to Germany which allegedly caused that some people (public in this case) were upset.

Edit - according to Balsamo, 30,000 were evacuated and 5,000 of the were planned for evacuation after the war, this means that 35,000 waited for evacuation. Thus somebody was upset when the job was already almost half done, interesting. If we follow Browning, 30,000 of Balsamo´s Jews were deported by 1942 for murdering in six trains and Himmler then changed policy because of a next few trains with another 35,000, again interesting, maybe you exterminationist should coordinate your claims.

Finally, Göbbels contradicts even Browning, he clearly said that only concentration or evacuation is considered, thus if these peoples were determined for extermination sooner or later, evacuation would not have been mentioned by Göbbels.

Hi hypothesis is wrong and I must say, a complete nonsense. No sources, no documents, one of the many inventions, especially absurd are passages like "some people were upset" "rumors came back to Germany" and etc., but Browning is not able to produce not even single name or example of rumor, this is called a "poetic license", he created this fictional background to explain real events like reduced or stopped deportations which does not fit the hypothesis about alleged extermination of European Jewry. This approach is very popular.

chim-pa wrote:Outlining the policy and implementing it are, of course, two different things.


But orthodox sources speaks about implemented policy in this period.
Last edited by Bob on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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