Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

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chim-pa
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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:28 am)

Hannover wrote:chim-pa cites Browning, but why?


That you can read from my post here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2219&start=30#p55161

Hannover wrote:If Goebbels dairies really meant 'extermination'


Diaries do not "mean" extermination in general. In some occasions he uses words which in German language mean killing, for example when using word "liquidieren" on group of people. One can "liquidate" abstract items of course too, but when used on specific group of people in a non-abstract manner, it means killing. Besides occasionally speaking of shooting, he does not mention method of killing, as far as I know, so speculating about it is irrelevant here.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hektor » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:37 am)

Hannover is asking precise questions. I think they deserve a precise answer.
chim-pa wrote:...
Diaries do not "mean" extermination in general. In some occasions he uses words which in German language mean killing, for example when using word "liquidieren" on group of people. One can "liquidate" abstract items of course too, but when used on specific group of people in a non-abstract manner, it means killing. Besides occasionally speaking of shooting, he does not mention method of killing, as far as I know, so speculating about it is irrelevant here.

Liquidate may mean killing in some contexts. It's far more common to use "liquidieren" in connection to companies and their assets and liabilities. That basically means one sells the assets, cancels contracts, dismisses the workers and closes the company. A company is essentially a group of people and it doesn't mean killing them. I think there are already several threads dealing with "liquidieren" and similar wording.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:49 am)

Hektor wrote:Liquidate may mean killing in some contexts. It's far more common to use "liquidieren" in connection to companies and their assets and liabilities. That basically means one sells the assets, cancels contracts, dismisses the workers and closes the company. A company is essentially a group of people and it doesn't mean killing them. I think there are already several threads dealing with "liquidieren" and similar wording.


Companies consist of people, they are not people per se. Same applies to, for example, Judentum, which is itself also an abstract term. One could argue that one can "liquidate" Judentum without meaning to kill anyone, but not a particular group of living Jewish persons, ie. for example, "Judentum liquidieren" and "Juden liquidieren" are two different things and only latter means unambiguously killing.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hektor » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:15 am)

chim-pa wrote:
Hektor wrote:... One could argue that one can "liquidate" Judentum without meaning to kill anyone, but not a particular group of living Jewish persons, ie. for example, "Judentum liquidieren" and "Juden liquidieren" are two different things and only latter means unambiguously killing.

It can mean killing, but not necessarily. That's why one always needs to have more context. If one takes what the diary entry says:
Aus dem Generalgouvernement werden jetzt, bei Lublin beginnend, die Juden nach dem Osten abgeschoben. Es wird hier ein ziemlich barbarisches und nicht näher zu beschreibendes Verfahren angewandt, und von den Juden selbst bleibt nicht mehr viel übrig. Im großen und ganzen kann man wohl feststellen, daß 60 Prozent davon liquidiert werden müssen, während nur 40 Prozent in die Arbeit eingesetzt werden können.

That simply means.
- The Jews are deported from the generalgouvernement to the east.
- Not much remains left from the Jews.
- Overall 60 percent should be liquidated, while 40% can be used to work ("in die Arbeit eingesetzt" isn't really good German wording).

What the passage is actually telling us is that 40% of the Jews are to be kept for work in the Generalgouvernment, while the other 60 percent are to be liquidated by sending them to the East.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:24 am)

Hektor wrote:the other 60 percent are to be liquidated by sending them to the East.


If "sending to the East"=killing, then yes.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hektor » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:41 am)

chim-pa wrote:
Hektor wrote:the other 60 percent are to be liquidated by sending them to the East.


If "sending to the East"=killing, then yes.

No, sending to the East simply means sending them to territory East of the Generalgouvernement.
Despite some harsh wording, the Goebbels-diary entry doesn't support the Exterminationist narrative, but the Revisionist one.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:44 am)

Hektor wrote:No, sending to the East simply means sending them to territory East of the Generalgouvernement.


Then the interpetation you presented above is wrong.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Hektor » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:06 am)

chim-pa wrote:
Hektor wrote:No, sending to the East simply means sending them to territory East of the Generalgouvernement.


Then the interpetation you presented above is wrong.

You make a baseless non-Sequitur. My interpretation is the most plausible one reading the full paragraph and context.
If liquidieren meant killing he simply could have used the word. In the context "liquidieren" just means getting rid of the Jews by removing them from the Generalgouvernment to the East. That also shows you that camps like Treblinka were Transit camps.

If he meant killing all the 60% of the Jews he'd stated so by using the word killing.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:35 am)

Hektor wrote:If he meant killing all the 60% of the Jews he'd stated so by using the word killing.


And so he did (in German, of course).

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Bob » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:44 am)

chim-pa wrote:Diaries do not "mean" extermination in general. In some occasions he uses words which in German language mean killing, for example when using word "liquidieren" on group of people. One can "liquidate" abstract items of course too, but when used on specific group of people in a non-abstract manner, it means killing. Besides occasionally speaking of shooting, he does not mention method of killing, as far as I know, so speculating about it is irrelevant here.

If "sending to the East"=killing, then yes.


Addressed and refuted, re-read previous pages please. Passages have nothing to do with killing, otherwise I challenge you to address provided arguments and I want to see explanations from you.

Thanks.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:58 am)

Bob wrote:Addressed and refuted


You have done no such thing, you have just insisted that German word liquidieren used in reference to living objects to be liquidated would mean something else than it actually does, ie. killing. I'm sorry, but that is just utter BS, nothing more.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Bob » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:17 am)

chim-pa wrote:
Bob wrote:Addressed and refuted


You have done no such thing, you have just insisted that German word liquidieren used in reference to living objects to be liquidated would mean something else than it actually does, ie. killing. I'm sorry, but that is just utter BS, nothing more.


Problem is, that you are not able to refute my/revisionists explanations, you are only able to write - utter bullshit - and this is your "argument". You are not even able to write for what reason this means killing and what is your support for this, but this interpretation is statement - without any proof or support exactly like your previous erroneous claims about Browning´s story, Auschwitz, alleged extermiantion policy and etc.

On the other hand, I/revisionists am able to refute your claim that this refers to killing, actually I am not the one, but Josef Göbbels himself. Re-read preceding pages.

Thanks.

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Moderator » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:23 pm)

chimp-pa:
You have repeatedly been challenged, yet you ignore those challenges, so let me repeat:
Prove to this forum that the '60% of Jews' that are under discussion were murdered. You believe that 'extermination' was meant by Goebbels, fine, now address the challenges and prove it. This is your chance to counter Revisionists, you should welcome the opportunity. Simple as that. I will delete and then save any post by you in this thread which does not address the challenges.
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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Balsamo » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:35 pm)

Prove to this forum that the '60% of Jews' that are under discussion were murdered. You believe that 'extermination' was meant by Goebbels, fine, now address the challenges and prove it. This is your chance to counter Revisionists, you should welcome the opportunity. Simple as that. I will delete and then save any post by you in this thread which does not address the challenges.
M1.


Moderator, is that what my public warning is about ?
Is this challenge i have to adress as well ?
Sincerely asked

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Re: Goebbels' diaries and Nizkor's manipulations

Postby Moderator » 6 years 7 months ago (Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:38 pm)

Balsamo wrote:
Prove to this forum that the '60% of Jews' that are under discussion were murdered. You believe that 'extermination' was meant by Goebbels, fine, now address the challenges and prove it. This is your chance to counter Revisionists, you should welcome the opportunity. Simple as that. I will delete and then save any post by you in this thread which does not address the challenges.
M1.


Moderator, is that what my public warning is about ?
Is this challenge i have to adress as well ?
Sincerely asked

Yes. We debate here, with expectations of response.
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Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.


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