alleged death camps and rail gauges

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
polardude
Member
Member
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:28 pm

Postby polardude » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:30 am)

The idea of Aktion Reinhart camps being transit camps is superficially attractive but suffers from a lack of evidence.

For Treblinka II, for example, the aerial photos before liberation show hardly any buildings or signs of camp there at all.

The Exterminationist story says that all the traces had been destroyed to avoid detection.
If you remove that motive it seems rather odd for Germans to destroy all traces of transit camp that upwards of 800 000 people had been processed through.


The argument raised with regards transport manifest is hard to follow. Detailed transport manifests do exist for journeys to the camps.


I am not sure that this is actually true. At every trial a few typewritten documents have been produced that detail so many thousands of Jews transported. But these are hardly standard rail manifests.
Usually they look more like reports or purporting to be reports that are providing an SS office or Eichmann etc details of the "Evacuation" and how it is proceeding.

At least that is all I have ever seen.

Perhaps John could show us what he means by "transport manifests" and we could see if one should expect that details of the next trip the train took should be in the same file.

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3386
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Postby Hektor » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:43 am)

polardude wrote:The idea of Aktion Reinhart camps being transit camps is superficially attractive but suffers from a lack of evidence.
One may say this even more about the claim that it had been an "Extermination camp :twisted: "
polardude wrote:For Treblinka II, for example, the aerial photos before liberation show hardly any buildings or signs of camp there at all.

The Exterminationist story says that all the traces had been destroyed to avoid detection.
If you remove that motive it seems rather odd for Germans to destroy all traces of transit camp that upwards of 800 000 people had been processed through.
...
They did not destroy the traces. Since the camp would have consisted of barracks and fencing materials, it would have made sense to move these materials elsewhere as soon as they were not needed anymore in Treblinka. What is rather odd is the story of the "destruction of all traces of extermination". Things like digging out all the corpses, letting them burn and make the ashes/bones vanish remind me of a conspiracy theory. "There is no evidence, because they made all of it vanish to keep it secret." Then "That they kept it secret proves their thorough planning of the whole thing". Finally:"The thorough planning shows that it must be true.".

Honestly I think those secrecy and evidence disposal claims are a gambit of the Exterminationists to get the burden of proof of their backs.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9919
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:09 pm)

Honestly I think those secrecy and evidence disposal claims are a gambit of the Exterminationists to get the burden of proof of their backs.

Very true.

Yet sensing the onrushing scrutiny of their claims, they turn around and make laughable claims that there is evidence aplenty; that the Germans supposedly documented it themselves, that the Germans supposedly left alleged 'gas chambers' relatively intact, that the Germans supposedly boasted openly about it in speeches and correspondence, etc.

As usual, when we look at each specific claim, we see absurd, easily debunked nonsense.

Caught like rats on a ship, the True Believers will then return to claiming secrecy and disposal of evidence. Laughably desperate.

It all comes down to them telling lies, and liars must continue to lie in hopes of covering their lies.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

polardude
Member
Member
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:28 pm

Postby polardude » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:14 am)

The idea of Aktion Reinhart camps being transit camps is superficially attractive but suffers from a lack of evidence.
- One may say this even more about the claim that it had been an "Extermination camp "


Actually there is a lot of evidence that they were Extermination camps. Including detailed confessions by Stangl and Franz in post war trials.

The Stroop report also mentions thousands of Jews being "destroyed" by transportation to Treblinka.

I still think it highly unlikely there was a camp there at all (pace Krege) but that doesn't allow me to ignore all the evidence that says there was.

To my knowledge there is no evidence that says there was a transport camp there.

If you know of any kindly present it.

Johng
Member
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:17 pm
Location: Wales

Postby Johng » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:40 am)

Further rebuttal of the transport east claim is the fact that transports came from the east as well as west to the camps.

For example transports from Galicia, east of the Bug, were sent to Belzec and transports from bialystok, east of Treblinka, to Treblinka.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9919
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:18 am)

polardude cites Stangl, too bad, it's useless for his position.
see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=87
Stangl interview with Gitta Sereny?

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1992
Franz Stangl Testimony?

The same for Stroop, search 'stroop' here and see.

He mentions Franz, but gives us no specifics about what he finds compelling about him. Hmm. I challenge him to start threads on any of these points ... or post to existing ones. Specifics will be required.

johng says:
Further rebuttal of the transport east claim is the fact that transports came from the east as well as west to the camps.

For example transports from Galicia, east of the Bug, were sent to Belzec and transports from bialystok, east of Treblinka, to Treblinka.

Well yes.
That would be normal and expected as labor and supplies were shuttled back & forth as needed.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Johng
Member
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:17 pm
Location: Wales

Postby Johng » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:02 am)

This is my third attempt to reply specifically to Hanover. why are they blocked?

User avatar
Moderator
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 9:23 am

Postby Moderator » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:30 am)

Johng:

You're actually skirting the specfics and repeating points that have been challenged. Read the guidelines.
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3386
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Postby Hektor » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:27 pm)

polardude wrote:
The idea of Aktion Reinhart camps being transit camps is superficially attractive but suffers from a lack of evidence.
- One may say this even more about the claim that it had been an "Extermination camp "


Actually there is a lot of evidence that they were Extermination camps. Including detailed confessions by Stangl and Franz in post war trials.
So why not quote from or refer to those 'detailed confessions'?!
polardude wrote:The Stroop report also mentions thousands of Jews being "destroyed" by transportation to Treblinka.
Exactly which part of the Stroop Report mentions this? Actually "destroyed by transportation" would be an odd German expression as well.
polardude wrote:I still think it highly unlikely there was a camp there at all (pace Krege) but that doesn't allow me to ignore all the evidence that says there was.

To my knowledge there is no evidence that says there was a transport camp there.

If you know of any kindly present it.
So how did Jews (from Western Europe) then get to the Ghettos in the East?!
Image
There is no physical evidence of this being an "extermination camp", Jews seem to have stopped there, but the area seems not to have been developed to house a large number of people there. So what else should it have been then a transit camp?!
I think you'll get many answers here as well:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/10.html
Check out the whole book, since it deals with Treblinka :wink:

PLAYWRIGHT
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:17 pm
Location: Milwaukee

Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:07 pm)

Johng wrote:Further rebuttal of the transport east claim is the fact that transports came from the east as well as west to the camps.

For example transports from Galicia, east of the Bug, were sent to Belzec and transports from bialystok, east of Treblinka, to Treblinka.


I think I might have an insight into that.

The mainline from Bialystock runs to Byelorussia and then Russia.

But the mainline from Trebinka, if I remember correctly, runs to the Ukraine, which was actually underpopulated in those days, thanks in part to the Holmodor.

As for Belzec, it had been established as a German labor camp in late 1939, supplying labor and materials for the "Otto Line", the fortifications the Germans were building between their part of Poland and the Russian part. Since it's on the mainline between Galacia and Lublin, it would seem logical to use an existing site, rather than build a new one. Though, I admit, it would have been just as logical to use the big labor camp the Germans set up at the oil fields of Lvov, only about 50 miles away.

ALSO - Malinkia, the transit camp near Treblinka. I can't seem to find any description of it - AND - no record of the Soviets overunning the camp, which means I suppose, it was dismantled too?

polardude
Member
Member
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:28 pm

Postby polardude » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:07 am)

Hektor asked
Exactly which part of the Stroop Report mentions this? Actually "destroyed by transportation" would be an odd German expression as well.


http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/stroop-report/jpg/strp075.jpg

Von den 56 065 insgesamt erfassten Juden sind ca. 7000 im Zuge der Grossaktion in ehm. jud. Wohnbezirk selbst vernichtet. Durch transport nach TII wurden 6 929 vernichtet, so dass insgesamt 13 929 Juden vernichtet wurden.

Mattagno has pointed out it there is something odd with this particular telegram on this date. Originally at Nurember it was positioned in a different place in the report and not as a telex
cf.
http://www.mazal.org/archive/nca/03/NCA03-0727.htm

However references to TII appear through out the report. Although most captured Jews were actually transported to the Lublin area I think and not transported to Treblinka.

Assuming the document is genuine.

polardude
Member
Member
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:28 pm

Postby polardude » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:26 am)

Hannover asked
He mentions Franz, but gives us no specifics about what he finds compelling about him.


Well actually I find nothing compelling about him at all, simply he supports my thesis that either an Extermination camp existed at Treblinka II or as the scientific researches of Richard Krege found - no camp at all.
That any evidence that there is for the existence of a camp is solely in relation to its role as an extermination camp.

As regards Kurt Franz
Kurt Franz testifies on his days in Treblinka

"I cannot say how many Jews in total were gassed in Treblinka. On average each day a large train arrived. Sometimes there were even two. This however was not so common.

"In Treblinka I was commander of the Ukrainian guard unit as I had been in Belzec. In Treblinka as in Belzec the unit consisted of sixty to eighty men. The Ukrainians' main task was to man the guard posts around the camp perimeter. After the uprising in August 1943 I ran the camp more or less single-handedly for a month; however, during that period no gassings were undertaken.

"It was during that period that the original camp was demolished. Everything was leveled off off and lupins were planted..." (Klee, 247-249)

Work Cited

Klee, E., W. Dressen, V. Riess. The Good Old Days. New York: The Free Press, NY, 1988.


Now it seems to me if Kurt Franz really was the deputy commander of a transit camp why not just say so loud and clear?

Of course if no such camp as Treblinka II ever existed all you need do is create some identities of a few clowns like Franz and Stangl who will say any old crazy stuff you like, safe in the knowledge that no-one will contradict you - because there are no former personel of Treblinka II to leap up and say "no, it was just a transit camp"

Because that is the fact isn't it. No member of the SS or auxilaries has ever stood up as a defendent at a trial and said Treblinka II was a transit camp have they?

Johng
Member
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:17 pm
Location: Wales

Postby Johng » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:58 am)

Let me try again,

Hanover asks the question why would the Germans destroy documents relating to outward journey for trains leaving Treblinka.

My direct response is that they didn’t destroy them. The records concerning the transports to the camps are, in the main, not railway company records but information collected for the authorities in Berlin.

The orders for trains to return, or go to a particular destination to load up again would not be of any particular importance, and would not be kept, or archived. No reason to do so.

Laurentz Dahl
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:00 am
Location: Somewhere in Europe

Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:53 am)

polardude wrote:Well actually I find nothing compelling about him at all, simply he supports my thesis that either an Extermination camp existed at Treblinka II or as the scientific researches of Richard Krege found - no camp at all.
That any evidence that there is for the existence of a camp is solely in relation to its role as an extermination camp.


I'm not sure I'm buying your theory. For one thing, there are to be seen what is almost unmistakeably the outlines of a number of demolished or deconstructed building structures to the south of the standing buildings in the air photos from 1944. My guess is that those are impressions in the soil left from baracks that were used for storage and temporary housing of deportees. Such structures lacking concrete foundations could perhaps account for no evidence of them turning up on a ground penetrating radar study (although it is perhaps not a good idea to rely too much on a report that has yet to be published).

Even if the theories of Treblinka II not having existed is somewhat fascinating I still think the transit camp hypothesis is the most persuasive one, though the transit camp at Malkinia is probably part of the puzzle as well.

We can only pray and hope that there are documentary evidence (such as outbound train records) remaining and lying around somewhere to be discovered - unless its not locked up somewhere, that is.

Btw, is the designation "Treblinka II" actually documented somewhere? Was the nearby labour camp officially labeled "Treblinka I" or was it just called Treblinka Labour Camp?

However, we better return to topic.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9919
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:44 am)

Johng says:
My direct response is that they didn’t destroy them. The records concerning the transports to the camps are, in the main, not railway company records but information collected for the authorities in Berlin.

The orders for trains to return, or go to a particular destination to load up again would not be of any particular importance, and would not be kept, or archived. No reason to do so.

Now he says that the same authorities which kept the incoming records curiously did not keep the outgoing records. Not a credible position.

He says they wouldn't be of importance. Why not? The trains would need to be trackable in wartime due to their obvious importance, each train's whereabouts would be vital knowledge. Their contents would necessarily have been logged, the passengers would have necessarily been listed. All trains require frequent service stops which involve deliveries-pickups at many facilities, utilizing lots of staff, fuel, maintenance, on & on; but the outgoing records of this activity are not to be found.

Johng double speaks by saying "would not be kept, or archived", while saying they were not destroyed. OK then, where are they?

They're hiding something.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Hektor, Louis S and 3 guests