"Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

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"Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Haldan » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:51 pm)

Alfred Rosenberg explains the meaning of "Ausrottung". I obtained this from the Adelaide Institute (http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/).

What follows is an exchange between Alfred Rosenberg and Mr. Dodd at the IMT trial over the word "ausrotten" and its meaning when used by the Nazis with reference to the Jews and Jewry. I have edited it down for length sake. If you are interested in the whole thing, the testimony took place on Wednesday, 4/17/1946. (Nuremberg: IMT, 1943. starting pp. 550, Proceedings: 4/8/1946-4/17/1946.)

...

MR. DODD: Yes, very well. Did you ever talk about the extermination of
the Jews?

ROSENBERG: I have not in general spoken about the extermination of the Jews in the sense of this term. One has to consider the words here. The term "extermination" has been used by the British Prime Minister...

MR. DODD: You will get around to the words. You just tell me now whether you ever said it or not? You said that, did you not?

ROSENBERG: Not in a single speech in that sense...

...

MR. DODD: Then you have written into your speech remarks about the
extermination of Jews, haven't you? Answer that "yes" or "no."

ROSENBERG: I have said already that that word does not have the sense which you attribute to it. [!!!]

...

Now this is also a memorandum of yours written by you about a discussion you had with Hitler on 12/14/1941, and it is quite clear from the first paragraph that you and Hitler were discussing a speech which you were to deliver in the Sportpalast in Berlin, and if you will look at the second paragraph, you will find these words:

"I remarked on the Jewish question that the comments about the New York Jews must perhaps be changed somewhat after the conclusion (of matters in the East). I took the standpoint not to speak of the extermination (Ausrottung) of Jewry. The Fuehrer affirmed this view and said that they had laid the burden of war on us and that they had brought the destruction; it is no wonder if the results would strike them first."

MR. DOOD: Now, you have indicated that you have some difficulty with the meaning of that word, and I am going to ask you about the word "Ausrottung." I am going to ask that you be shown you are familiar with the standard German-English dictionary, Cassell's I suppose, are you? Do you know this word, ever heard of it?

ROSENBERG: No.

MR. DODD: This is something you will be interested in. Will you look up and read out to the Tribunal what the definition of "Ausrottung" is?

ROSENBERG: I do not need a foreign dictionary in order to explain the various meanings "Ausrottung" may have in the German language. One can exterminate an idea, an economic system a social order, and as a final consequence, also a group of human beings, certainly. Those are the many possibilities which are contained in that word. For that I do not need an English-German dictionary. Translations from German into English are so often wrong-and just as in that last document you have submitted to me, I heard again the translation of "Herrenrasse." In the document itself "Herrenrasse" is not even mentioned; however, there is the term "en fallacious Herrenmenschentum" (a false master mankind). Apparently everything is translated here in another sense.

MR. DODD: All right, I am not interested in that. Let us stay on this term of "Ausrottung." I take it then that you agree it does mean to "wipe out" or to "kill off," as it is understood, and that you did use the term in speaking to Hitler.

ROSENBERG: Here I heard again a different translation, which again used new German words, so I cannot determine what you wanted to express in English.

MR. DODD: Are you very serious in pressing this apparent inability of yours to agree with me about this word or are you trying to kill time? Don't you know that there are plenty of people in this courtroom who speak German and who agree that that word does mean to "wipe out," to "extirpated?"

ROSENBERG: It means "to overcome" on one side and then it is to be used not with respect to individuals but rather to juridical entities, to certain historical traditions. On the other side this word has been used with respect to the German people and we have also not believed that in consequence thereof 60 millions of Germans would be shot.
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Postby nny » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:17 pm)

Very good point, thanks for the informative post I'm glad to have that little tid bit of information :)

I recently read Sabalds "On the Natural History of Destruction", he mentions a book by Hans Nossack about the destruction of Hamburg, translated to English it means "Hamburg: The End". He makes the point of saying in German it is "Hamburg : Der Untergang". Not being able to speak German myself I didn't understand the significance. One Reviewer kindly pointed it out :

"There is a German equivalent of "the end," but it isn't the word Nossack took as his title. He called his book "Der Untergang." Literally, in English, "the undergoing." There is such a word in English, of course, but it means something different. You undergo an ordeal; you pass through some experience, like a dark night in a terror-filled forest, and you emerge, changed but alive, on the other side.

The German word is final in a way the English cannot be. It's like a torpedoed ship swallowed by the sea. Like the Latin equivalent, obitus, a going toward, a euphemism for "death," even in Roman times, and the source of our word obituary.

Even if undergoing had not the sense of "passage" in English, it has the wrong sound. The sonically unfortunate evolution of English gerundive endings into -ing, a weak and tinselly sound, renders that whole class of words mostly useless for poets or writers who aspire to a poetic quality. German -gang has the toll of a funeral bell. "

It should not be surprising that some ideas do not translate well between languages, and to one group of people 'Elimination' may have multiple meanings. IE when Hitler spoke of the Elimination of European Jews in Mein Kampf, did people seriously believe he meant the 'murder of European Jews'? Why would they assume almost 2 decades later his intentions had changed.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:03 am)

We're dealing with people that are so ignorant of German, that "Operation Reinhard" and "Operation Reinhardt" are still thrown around interchangeably. Martin Broszat had to point out years later that one is a last name and one is a first name. If it was named after Reinhard Heydrich, it would probably be named "Operation Heydrich." Yet even today people think "Aktion Reinhardt" is named after Reinhard Heydrich.

Wow.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:14 am)

The word ausrotten/Ausrottung has also been used by Hitler in a speech in 1942:
Auch eine andere Macht, die sehr gewaltig war in Deutschland hat unterdes die Erfahrung erleben können, daß die nationalsozialistischen Prophezeiungen keine Phrasen sind. Es ist die Hauptmacht, der wir all dieses Unglück verdanken: Das internationale Judentum. Sie werden sich noch erinnern an die Reichstagssitzung in der ich erklärte: Wenn das Judentum sich etwa einbildet, einen internationalen Weltkrieg zur Ausrottung der europäischen Rassen herbeiführen zu können, dann wird das Ergebnis nicht die Ausrottung der europäischen Rassen, sondern die Ausrottung des Judentums in Europa sein. [Beifall] Sie haben mich immer als Propheten ausgelacht. Von denen, die damals lachten, lachen heute unzählige nicht mehr. Die jetzt noch lachen, werden in einiger Zeit vielleicht auch nicht mehr lachen. [Beifall] Diese Welle wird sich über Europa hinaus über die ganze Welt verbreiten. Das internationale Judentum wird in seiner ganzen dämonischen Gefahr erkannt werden. Wir Nationalsozialisten werden dafür sorgen. In Europa ist diese Gefahr erkannt und Staat um Staat schließt sich unseren Gesetzgebungen an. So sehen wir in diesem gewaltigen Ringen heute ohnehin nur eine einzige Möglichkeit: Das ist die, des restlosen Erfolgs.
http://de.metapedia.org/wiki/Quelle/Rede_vom_08._November_1942_(Adolf_Hitler)
Last edited by Hektor on Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:48 am)

This has been discussed in other threads, too.

It looks as though "eradication" (Lat. radix=root) is closer to both the usage and the etymology of Ausrottung. It is possible to eradicate a group from a specific area without killing them.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:38 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:This has been discussed in other threads, too.

It looks as though "eradication" (Lat. radix=root) is closer to both the usage and the etymology of Ausrottung. It is possible to eradicate a group from a specific area without killing them.

It has been discussed. And yes eradication is a pretty exact translation. Consider the NS preference for dashing strong language as well.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:00 pm)

I believe 'uprooting' is the most correct translation.

- In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of 'ausrottung' would be 'extirpation' or 'tearing up by the roots'.

- from a 1935 speech by Rudolf Hess:
"National Socialist legislation has now introduced corrective measures against this over-alienization. I say corrective, because the proof that the Jews are not being ruthlessly rooted out [AUSGEROTTET] is that in Prussia alone 33,500 Jews are working in manufacturing and industry, and 89, 800 are engaged in trade and commerce; and that with only 1 per cent of the population Jewish, 17.5 per cent of our attorneys and in Berlin nearly half the registered doctors are still Jewish."

In 1935 there was no charge against the Nazis that they were 'exterminating' Jews.

- the 1936 anti-German book by Leon Feuchtwanger and others was titled:
DER GELBE FLECK: DIE AUSROTTUNG VON 500,000 DEUTSCHEN JUDEN

I guess the 'exterminations' started in 1936 then.

- Hitler in his Berlin Sportpalast speech of February 1933:
den Marxismus und seine Begleiterscheinungen aus Deutschland AUSZUROTTEN

"to eradicate Marxism and its accompanying phenomena from Germany". How does one explain "from Germany", "out of Germany" if 'auszurotten's' only possible meaning was the physical extermination of living beings? Was Hitler thinking of gassing "Marxism" itself?

- It should also be pointed out that if Hitler's plan to exterminate the Jews was a secret plan that required the destruction of evidence at the end of the war, then why did he use the word 'ausrotten' in so many of his public speeches prior to the war?'
Either way, the meaning of 'ausrotten' actually plays against the holocaust theory. If it did mean murder and the plan was public, then that means the Germans did not attempt to carry out a secret plan and did not attempt to destroy the evidence afterwards to conceal the plan.

more here:
'Himmler's Speech on 'Extermination'?'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7422&p=54924
plus:
'Grubach debunks Jeffrey Herf and the 'Final Solution' canard'
viewtopic.php?p=30276

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:12 pm)

I think the Holocausters will be harping on the fact that Hitler said "Vernichtung der juedischen Rasse in Europa" (Destruction of the jewish race in Europe) in 1939 and "Ausrottung des Judentums in Europa" (Uprooting of Jewry in Europe) in 1942. Standing alone this can of course be understood as physical destruction of Jews. But then one has to ignore the full context including official communication on the Jewish Question.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:28 pm)

Hannover wrote:- from a 1935 speech by Rudolf Hess:
"National Socialist legislation has now introduced corrective measures against this over-alienization. I say corrective, because the proof that the Jews are not being ruthlessly rooted out [AUSGEROTTET] is that in Prussia alone 33,500 Jews are working in manufacturing and industry, and 89, 800 are engaged in trade and commerce; and that with only 1 per cent of the population Jewish, 17.5 per cent of our attorneys and in Berlin nearly half the registered doctors are still Jewish."

In 1935 there was no charge against the Nazis that they were 'exterminating' Jews.


People often make mistakes when relying on translations. Word Hess used was Judentum, not Juden, and meaning is more ambivalent then.

Hannover wrote:
- the 1936 anti-German book by Leon Feuchtwanger and others was titled:
DER GELBE FLECK: DIE AUSROTTUNG VON 500,000 DEUTSCHEN JUDEN

I guess the 'exterminations' started in 1936 then.


Here word indeed means extermination. Authors claim that Jews were already killed in smaller scale and that this was just a begin.

Hannover wrote:- Hitler in his Berlin Sportpalast speech of February 1933:
den Marxismus und seine Begleiterscheinungen aus Deutschland AUSZUROTTEN

"to eradicate Marxism and its accompanying phenomena from Germany". How does one explain "from Germany", "out of Germany" if 'auszurotten's' only possible meaning was the physical extermination of living beings? Was Hitler thinking of gassing "Marxism" itself?


Here again, Marxismus but not Marxisten. There is a difference between "Ausrottung" of abstract ideas and groups of human beings, as pointed out by Rosenberg (quoted in the OP):

One can exterminate an idea, an economic system a social order, and as a final consequence, also a group of human beings, certainly.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:21 pm)

Well chim-pa, you certainly are stretching it here. "Judentum, not Juden" .. oh please.
And of course, an alleged 'secret plan of extermination' while at the same time supposedly using ausrotten publicly to mean extermination, is well, not very secret.
No, Leon Feuchtwanger's book cannot mean extermination because 500,000 Jews were not exterminated. Pretty basic stuff.
And given the fact that the gas chambers are scientifically impossible as alleged and the alleged mass graves cannot be shown, I then think it fair to say 'ausrotten' did not mean 'extermination'.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:52 pm)

Hannover wrote:Well chim-pa, you certainly are stretching it here. "Judentum, not Juden" .. oh please.


It is no "stretching" but using correct words.

Hannover wrote:And of course, an alleged 'secret plan of extermination' while at the same time supposedly using ausrotten publicly to mean extermination, is well, not very secret.


I wonder if there really are that many examples of that kind of language used in public. But, of course, one may use harsh language without really meaning it literally.

Hannover wrote:No, Leon Feuchtwanger's book cannot mean extermination because 500,000 Jews were not exterminated. Pretty basic stuff.


Book titles are not always statements of existing facts. That book was, by the way, translated already in 1936. It was called "The Yellow Spot: The Extermination of the Jews in Germany":

Image
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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:09 pm)

Himmler talked about the "ausrottung" of degenerate music (Jazz - Swing-Jugend) on January 1st, 1942:
Meines Erachtens muß jetzt das ganze Übel radikal ausgerottet werden.


Frau X. turned on the radio to Berlin, and upon our horrified ears fell the frenzied accents of the Fuehrer, announcing his instant resolve to root out the Poles. "Ich bin fest entschlossen die Polen auszurotten. Sieg heil! Sieg heil!"
- The Scots Magazine, 1939, page 123


Nach weniger als Einem Menschenalter wurden auch noch die übrigen ausgerottet aus diesem Lande, verkauft, zerstreut in alle Welt.
"After less than a generation, even the remaining ones were uprooted out of this land, sold and scattered all over the world."
- Geschichte der Religion Jesu Christi, Friedrich Leopold, volume 2, 1818, page 93


Here's another quote, from a 2008 exhibition in the Digital Archives of Marburg, from a yet unfinished publication called "Die Verfolgung der Sinti und Roma in Hessen von der frühen Neuzeit bis nach dem II. Weltkrieg" by Dr. Udo Engbring-Romang:
it dem Mittel der guten „Policey“ sollten schließlich die „Zigeuner" beseitigt oder "ausgerottet" werden, das heißt ihre Rotte, ihr Gruppenzusammenhalt, sollte zerstört werden. In Einzelfällen war der Begriff der „Ausrottung“ auch als Eliminierung der Individuen verstanden worden.
- http://www.digam.net/einfuehrung.php?lput=816

and again:
MR. DODD: Then you have written into your speech remarks about the
extermination of Jews, haven't you? Answer that "yes" or "no."

ROSENBERG: I have said already that that word does not have the sense which you attribute to it. [!!!]

- Nuremberg Proceedings

Soviet Premiere Nikita Khrushchev said at the United Nations, directed toward the United States; "We will bury you".
Proof that the communists exterminated the people of the U.S.A.

I note that chim-pa has avoided most points in this thread.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:14 pm)

Hannover wrote:I note that chim-pa has avoided most points in this thread.


I'll be glad to address them if you care to tell which ones.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Moderator » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:26 pm)

chim-pa wrote:
Hannover wrote:I note that chim-pa has avoided most points in this thread.


I'll be glad to address them if you care to tell which ones.

chim-pa, don't be silly, read the thread you are posting to.
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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Kladderadatsch » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:20 pm)

chim-pa wrote:Book titles are not always statements of existing facts. That book was, by the way, translated already in 1936. It was called "The Yellow Spot: The Extermination of the Jews in Germany":

Image


Image

A different edition? A different printing? Or even just a difference between dust jacket and title page of the same printing? (I can't check this last possibility, since the copy I have access to doesn't have a dust jacket.)

It's a small point, and as evidence it's hardly conclusive. But editors and translators do exercise a certain discretion, and here's an example. If you stick to "dictionary definitions," you might get "extermination" from "Ausrottung" but certainly not "outlawing." And yet here an editor or translator has chosen just that word. Why? Impossible to say, of course, at this distance. But a good guess is just that he or she realized how absurdly exaggerated "extermination" would seem to contemporary (1936) readers, and thus decided to use "outlawing" as a more accurate, if less "literal" translation.
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