"Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:52 pm)

chim-pa posted:
That book was, by the way, translated already in 1936. It was called "The Yellow Spot: The Extermination of the Jews in Germany":

And who 'translated' it and got creative with the dust cover? Do tell. One of the same good folks who claimed '6,000,000 Jews' decades before WWII I would think.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:15 am)

Kladderadatsch wrote:....
It's a small point, and as evidence it's hardly conclusive. But editors and translators do exercise a certain discretion, and here's an example. If you stick to "dictionary definitions," you might get "extermination" from "Ausrottung" but certainly not "outlawing." And yet here an editor or translator has chosen just that word. Why? Impossible to say, of course, at this distance. But a good guess is just that he or she realized how absurdly exaggerated "extermination" would seem to contemporary (1936) readers, and thus decided to use "outlawing" as a more accurate, if less "literal" translation.

It's a slippery slope. Jews were discarded from citizenship (which had good legal reasons btw. (ius sanguinis)). In Britain at the same time, government departments discriminated against British Citizens, because they had a German mother:
Thomas Haller Cooper was born in Chiswick, London, on 29 August 1919. His Father, Ashley Cooper, was a self-employed photographer and commercial artist. Thomas' Father had also served with the British Army in the Boer War. Thomas' Mother was a German called Anna Maria Simon, who his Father had met while in Berlin attempting to establish a photographic business.

After an extremely difficult pregnancy, which the doctors thought Thomas very lucky to survive, he attended the local primary school in the Hammersmith area of London. After passing his Eleven Plus examination, Thomas gained a place at Latymer Upper School in King Street, Hammersmith.

Thomas Cooper did not acquire any close friends at school and remained a solitary figure. He was very much a Mother's Boy, who still regarded herself as German (she had acquired British citizenship by marriage with Ashley Cooper). He left school in December 1936 after matriculation, as his parents could not afford to support him through university studies.

Due to the economic situation in the UK during 1937, Thomas Cooper could not find, in his opinion, a suitable job. He eventually became a clerk at the firm of W.J. Bush & Co, Hackney, East London. At this time, he also tried to try and enter the public service with the Metropolitan Police, eventually leading to the Criminal Investigation Department (CID). His application was refused, due to having a German Mother. After this rejection, Thomas Cooper also applied to join the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy. His requests were again rejected due to his German Mother.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Haldan » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:13 am)

Julius Streicher when responding to claims of having used language such as 'extermination' in speeches and writing defended himself at NUREMBERG saying it was a matter of theoretical literacy.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:54 am)

Haldan wrote:Julius Streicher when responding to claims of having used language such as 'extermination' in speeches and writing defended himself at NUREMBERG saying it was a matter of theoretical literacy.

Where exactly in the transcripts does he say that?

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Haldan » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:13 am)

Hektor wrote:
Haldan wrote:Julius Streicher when responding to claims of having used language such as 'extermination' in speeches and writing defended himself at NUREMBERG saying it was a matter of theoretical literacy.

Where exactly in the transcripts does he say that?


Should you wish to read his own words I reference it as follows from Avalon:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-29-46.asp

Another good read via Carlos Porter can be found here:
http://k0nsl.org/blog/detox/julius-stre ... nuremberg/

Regards,
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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:09 pm)

Good, I look up, if I can find the missing in German, too.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Haldan » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:01 pm)

German passage:
Julius Streicher wrote:Das war seine Meinungsäußerung, seine Überzeugung. Diese Überzeugung ist ebenso zu nehmen, wie das, was ein jüdischer Schriftsteller zur gleichen Zeit in Amerika in seinem Buch geschrieben hat.
Erich Kauffmann schrieb: Die zeugungsfähigen deutschen Männer müßten sterilisiert werden und auf diesem Wege müßte das deutsche Volk ausgerottet werden.
Zur selben Zeit hat Hiemer den Artikel geschrieben, und ich möchte hier erklären, die Verschärfung im »Stürmer« entstand mit dem Buch aus Amerika.
Den Verhöroffizieren ist bekannt, daß ich wiederholt darauf hingewiesen habe, auch mein Verteidiger weiß es, ich bat ihn, dieses Buch beizubringen. Es befand sich im »Völkischen Beobachter«.
Wenn in Amerika ein Schriftsteller Erich Kauffmann öffentlich fordern kann, daß alle zeugungsfähigen deutschen Männer sterilisiert werden sollten, um das deutsche Volk auszurotten, dann sage ich: [399] Aug' um Auge, Zahn um Zahn. Das ist eine theoretische schriftstellerische Angelegenheit.


Source: http://www.zeno.org/Geschichte/M/Der+N% ... agssitzung

English passage:
Julius Streicher wrote:That was a statement of his opinion, his conviction. That conviction must be understood in the same way as something which a Jewish author wrote in his book in America. Erich Kauffmann wrote that German men capable of fathering children should be sterilized, and in that manner the German people should be exterminated. It was at the same time that Hiemer wrote his article, and I want to say that the very severe tone in Der Stuermer at that time was due to that book from America.

The interrogating officers know-and so does my counsel-that I have repeatedly pointed out that I wanted that book to be produced. It was in the Voelkischer Beobachter.

If in America an author called Erich Kauffmann can publicly demand that all men in Germany capable of fathering children should be sterilized, for the purpose of exterminating the German people, then I say, eye for eye and tooth for tooth. This is a theoretical literary matter.


Source: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-29-46.asp

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:33 pm)

Excellent, The record is riddled with examples countering the notion that "But-the-Nazis-admitted-the-Holocaust-in-Nurnberg".

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby hermod » 6 years 7 months ago (Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:52 pm)

Other interesting infos I can add.

The Meaning of Ausrotten and Ausrottung

Defenders of the Holocaust Myth insist that the German words Ausrottung and ausrotten, when used in reference to people, can only mean killing, a point which they will demonstrate by adducing some German dictionary published after the war. These Defenders of the Faith furthermore insist that the meaning has not changed. Both claims are easily disproven, through consultation of old dictionaries and through consideration of usage prior to 1945.

Image
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_GUU-IGqIVmM/S ... 04.psd.jpg

This is from A New Compendious German and English Dictionary by William Dwight Whitney, Henry Holt & Co., New York, 1887. (That is only two years before Hitler was born, and 13 years before Himmler.) Ausrotten and the noun derived from it, Ausrottung, historically have a range of meanings. The literal meaning of ausrotten is also its primary meaning, "root out." "Eradicate" is simply a Latin-derived word that also literally means "root out" (Exradico; ex: out, radico: root) "Extirpate" likewise is defined as "to pull up by the roots." "Exterminate" had a meaning in 19th and early 20th century dictionaries that is no longer used: its primary meaning is to place outside (ex) the border (terminus); therefore "exterminate" in older usage did not necessarily mean "killing". "Destroy" according to this German-English dictionary was a possible definition of ausrotten but not the most likely one.

The Luther Bible has only one instance of the noun Ausrottung, but copious instances of the verb ausrotten. When one compares corresponding passages in the Luther Bible and English Bibles, one finds that where Luther used forms of ausrotten the English expression typically used is "cut off," which means something like cast out or expel. Here are a couple of examples from the Luther Bible with English translation.

Wenn aber ein Männlicher nicht beschnitten wird an seiner Vorhaut, wird er ausgerottet werden aus seinem Volk, weil er meinen Bund gebrochen hat. (Das Erste Buch Mose (Genesis) 17:14, Luther Bible)

But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant. (Genesis17:14, New American Standard Bible)

Darum haltet meinen Sabbat, denn er soll euch heilig sein. Wer ihn entheiligt, der soll des Todes sterben. Denn wer eine Arbeit am Sabbat tut, der soll ausgerottet werden aus seinem Volk. (Das Zweite Buch Mose (Exodus) 31.14, Luther Bible)

Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. (Exodus 31:14, New American Standard Bible)

While ausrotten in the Luther Bible generally means to expel, Hitler's use of the noun Ausrottung in several instances from Mein Kampf clearly means something like dissolution. The important point is that ausrotten and Ausrottung do not necessarily mean killing.

http://national-socialist-worldview.blo ... mlers.html


Irving-Lipstadt trials:
According to the standard Langenscheidt 1967 German dictionary, which suggests translations in descending order of likelihood, Judentum is translated only as: '(n.) Judaism,' while Ausrottung has the entry '(f.) uprooting; extirpation, eradication; extermination, pol. a. genocide.'

When used by Hitler -- the subject of the book -- there is not one example known to the plaintiff (Irving) where the word ausrotten has exclusively the meaning submitted by the Defendants (Lipstadt & Co.), namely of liquidate.

[...]

On the contrary, when used by Hitler ausrotten has on several occasions demonstrably a meaning that can not be liquidate. Three examples:--

(a) In August 1936 he dictated to his young secretary Christa Schroeder the text of the famous memorandum on the Four Year Plan (printed with commentary by Professor Wilhelm Treue in Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 1955, at pages 184 et seq.; quoted by the plaintiff in THE WAR PATH, at page 50). In this Hitler stated that Germany must be rendered capable of waging War against the Soviet Union because 'a victory by Bolshevism would lead not to a new Versailles treaty but to the final annihilation, indeed the Ausrottung, of the German nation'. Clearly Hitler is not saying that the Bolsheviks would liquidate one hundred million Germans: but that they would subsume the nation, take it over, emasculate it -- the Germans would cease to exist as a sovereign world power.

(b) On November 10, 1938, addressing Nazi editors, he said: 'I have, I must add, often just one misgiving and that is the following: whenever I have a look at these intellectual classes of ours -- sadly, we need them; otherwise one might one day, uh, I dunno, ausrotten them or something' (German Federal Archives file NS.11/28, pages 30--46; and Dr Hildegard von Kotze and Professor Helmut Krausnick (ed.), Es Spricht der Führer, Gütersloh, 1966, at page 281; see too Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 1958, at page 188). Here too, the plaintiff submits, the sense of the verb ausrotten is 'turf them out' because at that time the Nazi blood purges had not begun, apart from Hitler's one murderous fling against the Brownshirts in 1934.

(c) On July 4, 1942 he described over dinner a conversation he had had with the Czech president Emil Hácha about his threat to expel the Czechs from the occupied territories of Bohemia and Moravia. 'The Czech gentlemen had understood this so well,' he said, 'that they had thereafter attuned their future policies explicitly to the principle that all pro-Soviet Benes intrigues and Benes people had to be ausgerottet, and that in the struggle for the preservation of the Czech national characteristics there could no longer be any neutrals, but those who blew neither hot nor cold were also to be spat out.' (Text in Henry Picker, Hitlers Tischgespräche im Führerhauptquartier 1941--42 Stuttgart, 1963, at page 435). The context shows that ausgerottet is used by Hitler to denote physical removal and expulsion.

Even Himmler used the word ausrotten on occasions to mean something other than murder. For example replying on February 21, 1944 to a report from Bormann on abuses in the Lublin concentration camp, Himmler wrote: 'The guilty commandant, SS-Sturmbannführer Florstedt, has been under arrest for two months already. The deplorable conditions are being severely ausgerottet and redressed in rigorous court-proceedings' (National Archives microfilm T-175, roll 53, at page 7290).

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Aus ... ument.html
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby hermod » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:44 am)

Hitler, May 26, 1944:

"Meine Herren Offiziere, wir stehen in einem Kampf auf Leben und auf Tod. Wenn in diesem Kampf unsere Gegner siegen, würde das deutsche Volk ausgerottet werden. Der Bolschewismus würde Millionen und Millionen und Millionen unserer Intellektuellen abschlachten. Was nicht durch Genickschuß stürbe, würde abtransportiert. Die Kinder höherer Schichten würden wegkommem und beseitigt werden. "

Translation:

"My dear generals, we are fighting a battle of life and death. If our enemies are victorious in this struggle, the German people will be extirpated. The Bolsheviks will butcher millions upon millions of our intellectuals. Those who escape the bullet in the back of the neck will be deported. The children of the upper classes will be taken away and got rid of."

Quote clearly demonstrating that the word "ausrotten" didn't necessarily imply a mass murder of all the individuals of a people or race. The dissolution of a people as a distinct group was an "ausrottung" in Hitler's mind, and mass deportation was a way to "ausrotten" a people in a given area, even if the Führer foresaw and feared a mass murder of Germany's intellectuals and upper class by the Soviets as that's what the Bolsheviks had done in Russia during the previous decades. Such a mass murder of intellectuals and people of the upper class was what Bolshevism implied in Hitler's mind. It doesn't mean that Hitler thought that an "ausrottung", like his own "ausrottung" of Europe's Jewry during WW2, necessarily implied a mass murder of "millions upon millions" as websites like Nizkor claim. Hitler just thought that's what would happen in Germany if the Soviets defeated the Third Reich because he simply and correctly thought that the mass murder of intellectuals and upper class was a Soviet habit in the territories administered by the Bolsheviks. The discovery and exhumation of Soviet mass graves at Katyn and Vinnitsa had vastly demonstrated to Hitler that the Soviets hadn't dropped their old "bullet in the back of the neck" treatment for their enemies at that time...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby hermod » 5 years 5 months ago (Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:02 am)

In the English language too, the word "exterminate" didn't only mean "mass murder" or "kill them all" in the 1930's.

Even some Jewish-controlled U.S. newspapers had understood how Hitler wanted to "exterminate" Germany's (and later, Europe's) Jewry at that time...

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http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 96,4705685
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby hermod » 5 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:20 am)

Even the German industrialist Eduard Schulte, who allegedly told the world of the "Holocaust" during WW2, didn't know at that time that "ausrottung" only meant "mass murder" and "killing them all" as we are told today...

Within a week and a half after Himmler’s second visit to Auschwitz, Schulte became aware of the purpose of all this activity. He found out that an important decision had been made by Hitler and was about to be executed. Schulte, unlike his deputy Fitzner, was not a Nazi. In fact, unknown to all but those closest to him, he was consumed by a passionate hatred of Nazism. He was utterly convinced that the Nazis would bring about the ruin of Germany. He thought the Nazi leadership capable of committing any conceivable crime or folly. But the secret Nazi plans for Auschwitz and other camps that became known to a few people during the last week of July were so horrendous that even Schulte, who in his circle of close friends would refer to Hitler as “that madman,” hesitated for a moment. Surely, they would not dare . . .

The news Schulte learned shed new and ghastly light on the true fate of the Jews. He had listened, like everyone else, to the speeches in which Hitler had promised that he would eliminate European Jewry. But the term “elimination” could be interpreted in various ways. It could mean, for instance, resettling them in Madagascar, as some had proposed. Almost no one, not even a committed anti-Nazi like Schulte, believed that “elimination” should be understood literally
”(p.15).

Schulte “found out”, but was not present himself when said decision was made. The authors do not inform us as to who told him and what he was told. According to this the decision to murder the Jews was made in Summer 1942, contradicting historians who give a variety of dates but none as late as that (It is alleged that Himmler witnesses a gassing of Jews on that visit, but that would of course not fit into the Laqueur/Breitman tale since according to them the decision to murder the Jews had just been made). What we do know about this visit is that Himmler ordered the camp to be expanded to eventually hold 200 000 inmates. Thus indeed, a decision had been made. The last part is interesting, however. This is plainly about the word “ausrotten”, translated as “elimination”. Schulte admits that the word had different meanings, “it could mean, for instance, resettling…”. Which is absolutely true.


http://revblog.codoh.com/2009/06/the-or ... 2%80%9D-2/
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 4 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:23 am)

As I posted in another thread:
Etymologically, the English equivalent of ausrottung is eradication (Latin: ex= out, radix=root) and of vernichtung is annihilation (Latin ad= to, nihil=nothing). Of course etymology doesn't always equate to current meaning, but this type of comparison via Latin is often a good guide to German-English equivalence.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby tyger » 5 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:08 am)

Which all goes to show how important it is to choose your language extremely carefully and to make it imposssible, well as difficult as possible, for the truth or an opinion to be mis-represented.

One of my pet hates is the use of hoax and holohoaxter by many posters on this board. A hoax is a light-hearted matter and I believe that it is a mistake to use a term which appears to trivialize what so many people continue to believe to be the truth.

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Re: "Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:07 am)

tyger wrote:One of my pet hates is the use of hoax and holohoaxter by many posters on this board. A hoax is a light-hearted matter and I believe that it is a mistake to use a term which appears to trivialize what so many people continue to believe to be the truth.
How I agree with that. In the days when I had not yet "seen the light" [ :) ] it was a major turn-off for me. While a propaganda hoax is not something light-hearted, the overtones of the word, connivance, deliberate choice, light-heartedness are wrong, inappropriate and decidedly unscholarly.

It is unfortunate that Butz chose the word for the title of his seminal work.


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