J. Zimmerman on 'Perpetrator' Testimony

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J. Zimmerman on 'Perpetrator' Testimony

Postby grenadier » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:41 pm)

On his online book, Holocaust Denial,chapter 6,
Zimmerman starts [http://www.mossadist.by.ru/HD_p2_ch6.htm]:
The admissions made by the perpetrators of the Holocaust have always been especially troublesome for deniers.


in regards to Göring:

There were, however, a couple of significant slips in Goring's testimony.
When asked how it was that he did not know about mass murders he replied:
"This is also explained by the fact that Himmler kept all these matters
very secret. We [Goring and Hitler] were never given figures or any other
details."9 Thus, Goring informed the court that he knew Himmler was
carrying out these policies, but keeping the figures "very secret."


plus:

In fact, when Goring was informed that the indictment stated that the destruction of the Jews was a part of planning aggressive wars, he replied that "the destruction of the Jewish race was not planned in advance."11 Not the "alleged destruction" but "the destruction". So Goring admitted to the destruction, but that it was not planned in advance. Thus, Goring might be said to fall into what is known as the functionalist school of Holocaust thought — that is, those who do not believe there was a long range plan to exterminate the Jews but that the policy evolved as Germany headed towards war.


and:

He never stated: "Those things did not happen because I would have known of them." Indeed, his failure to make such a blanket declaration is perhaps the best evidence of his knowledge.


Does anybody know what Göring said about this and the context? It seems mr.Zimmerman may be putting words in the mouth of a dead man or citing him out of a proper context.

Zimmerman also wrote:

What is particularly noteworthy about the testimonies of Goring,
von Ribbentrop, Kaltenbrunner and Frank is that not one of these
defendants ever denied outright that the extermination of the Jews
took place. Also, none of them claimed to know anything about a
resettlement plan for Jews. Sometimes one might mention in general
resettlement in the East, but no specifics of such a plan or direct
knowledge of any massive resettlement was ever mentioned. This in itself
is highly revealing because no such plan could have possibly existed
without the knowledge of these four men. Yet, it would have made an
excellent defense.


This part I think is interesting. Does anyone know why the defendants did
not try to use resettlement documentation? Had it not been already destroyed? If not, Did the defendants have access to it? Were the specific defendants in a position of knowing the details about resettlement? Because in that case J.Zimmerman might have a point after all...

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:06 pm)

Zimmerman has been exposed as a charlatan at this site.

Do we have Zimmerman's original sources? Do we have the context of the discussions, including the court's 'judicial notice' (acceptance) of the phoney gas chambers as fact and therefore not debatable, even though no forensic studies were presented?

In contrast, we have:

" I was never so close to Hitler as to have him express himself to me on [Nazi extermination camps] . I always thought that [concentration camps] were places where people were put to useful work. Those pictures that you showed me yesterday [of Dachau] must depict things that happend in the final few days. "

-Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering quoted in: David Irving, Goering : A Biography (New York: William Morrow and Co.,
1989), p.469.

Regarding an Allied radio broadcast announcement that the Jews were being exterminated:

" Really, the Jews should be grateful to me for wanting nothing more than a bit of hard work from them."
-Adolf Hitler quoted in: David Irving, Hitler's War (London: Focal Point, 1991), p.427.

" In order to put a stop to the epidemics, we were forced to burn the bodies of incalculable numbers of people who been destroyed by disease. We were therefore forced to build crematoria, and on this account they are knotting a noose for us. "

-Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler quoted in: Arthur Butz, The Hoax of the Twentieth Century (California: Institute for Historical Review, 1985), p.240. See also: Gerald Reitlinger, The Final Solution (London: Jason Aronson, 1987), p.480.

" Well, I knew they were being transported to the East, and understood that they were being set up in camps with their own administration, and eventually would settle somewhere in the East. -- I don't know. - I had no idea that it would lead to extermination in any literal sense. We just wanted to take them out of German political life. "

-Alfred Rosenberg - leading Nazi theoretician quoted in: G.M. Gilbert, Nuremberg Diary (New York: Signet, 1961), p.71.

" I never found out anything about any of this ... [It] is because of newspaper propaganda. I told you when I saw the newspaper headline 'Gas Chamber Expert Captured' and an American lieutenant explained it to me, I was pale with amazement. How can they say such things about me? I told you I was only in charge of the Intelligence Service from 1943 on. The British even admitted that they tried to assassinate me because of that- not because of having anything to do with atrocities, you can be sure of that. "

- Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Chief of Police quoted in: Gilbert, Nuremberg Diary, p.234-235.

After being shown films of Buchenwald:

" I don't believe it! "

-Deputy of the Führer Rudolf Hess quoted in: Gilbert, Nuremberg Diary, p.47.


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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:39 pm)

And ofcourse, authentic German documents debunk the entire notion of 'extermination' and send shysters like Zimmerman packing.

Madagascar was envisioned as a home for European Jews until the war made that impractical. Africa was discussed, as well as Siberia, and ofcourse, Palestine. However the Schlegelberger document made it clear that the issue would be settled after the war:

Image
translation:
"Mr Reich Minister Lammers informed me that the Führer had repeatedly declared to him that he wants to hear that the Solution of the Jewish Problem has been postponed until after the war is over. That being so, the current discussions are of purely theoretical value, in Mr Reich Minister Lammers' opinion. He will moreover take pains to ensure that, whatever else happens, no fundamental decisions are taken without his knowledge in consequence of a surprise briefing by any third party."


Note that at a HQ dinner July 24, 1942 Hitler said he will tackle Jewish problem ...

"nach Beendigung des Krieges" (after the war's over)

The 'Luther Memo' confirms the contents of the Schlegelberger document.
see:
http://www.codoh.com/viewpoints/vppgluther.html

The Luther Memo is a document that provides a summary of German Jewish population policies as of August, 1942. It references, by enclosure, about a dozen other documents, including the July 1941 Goering letter and the Wannsee Conference minutes, and provides a connected narrative to that point.

It does not describe extermination, but rather ghettoization in the East and labor utilization. It describes the nature of what the official German policy actually was. Exterminationists reference it usually by claiming that is is all "code words" ... laughable.

It was introduced, along with the other documents, during Military Tribunal IV, Case 11 (NMT 11). AKA U.S. vs. Weizaecker (Ministries, or Wilhelmstrasse, Case). This was the last, or second to last NMT trial, and the documentation provided for this trial represented the "last chance" at the story by the American prosecutors. Therefore it is a goldmine of information.

Years later, in private conversation, Hitler also said this:

(I'll represent the entire context, as it gives samples of Hitler's recurrent preoccupation with jews as well as the relaxed character of a typically antisemitic tabletalk (there is no language in code utilized here!).
Afternoon, 29/5 1942, Berlin:

"At supper the chief mentioned that the Jewish police in the ghettos , according to the reports he had been recieving, cut in on their fellow-believers with methods that the police among us wouldn't have dared using against our party members even during the worst era of the struggle. Therein came the entire rawness of the jewish character to rich expression.
Moreover, it was interesting to note that even so called highly educated Jews, like doctors, lawyers and so forth, who had long served in west-European cities, already after a mere 14 days in ghetto had become entirely ghettoizised and ran around in caftans and the like. One could hardly imagine a better proof that in the end, the Jew was an Asian and not a European.
Entire western Europe must therefore, after a certain time, become totally freed of Jews ("Judenfrei"). This was necessary already because there would always be a certain percentage of fanatics among the jews who again tries to put jewry back on its feet. Therefore it was neither recommendable trying to get rid of the jews by sending them to Siberia, as their resistence to any climate would only make them particularly hardened there. It was much more sensible to - as the arabs didn't want them in Palestine - to transport them to Africa, thereby exposing them to a climate that effected every man with our resistence in a negative way, whereby it would become impossible for the jews to make any encrouchment on areas of interest to European people."

Revisionist comments:
The reports he had received is perhaps the periodical "Meldung aus dem Reich" put together by the SD.
Now, why is Hitler talking about sending the Jews to Africa when the alleged gas chambers in Belzec and Sobibor were supposedly operational for several months and Treblinka is just about to start up (July 1942)?
What is this Siberia thing and how come is it mentioned in relation to a supposed 'codeword' for exterminationalist policies: "Judenfrei"?

Also, please observe that this transcript is taken from secret notes made during an informal dinner party with Hitler's closest associates and not a huge rally where symbolic language and inflammatory outbursts would be the natural elements. It is also much closer in time, in fact contemporary to the events of the 'holocaust'.

(Note that the above is a Swedish translation to English from the German original, "Tischgespräche im Führerhauptquartier" (1963). I also had the original myself under the title "Monologue im Führerhauptquartier"


The following letter was written by Franz Rademacher in February of 1942. It's important for its clarity regarding the Nazi "final solution" of the Jewish question.

Judeo-supremacist and Allied propaganda has fraudulently enforced a sinister definition of the term "final solution". In this document a number of points are made perfectly clear:

- The "final solution" was to be a plan for deportation to the island of Madagascar.
- Gruppenführer Heydrich was ordered by Hitler to carry out the "final solution."
- Due to the war with the Soviet Union, the "final solution" was redefined from deportations to Madagascar to deportations to the east.

From Franz Rademacher, Head of AA Referat D III (Jewish Affairs), to Harold Bielfeld, Head of AA Pol. X (Africa and Colonial Affairs), February 10, 1942:
In August 1940 I gave you for your files the plan for the final solution of the Jewish Problem, drafted by my office, for which purpose the Madagascar Island was to be demanded from France in the Peace Treaty, while the Reich Security Main Office was to be charged with the actual execution of the task.

In accordance with the plan, Gruppenführer Heydrich has been ordered by the Führer to carry out the solution of the Jewish Problem in Europe. In the meantime the war against the Soviet Union has offered the possibility of putting other territories at our disposal for the final solution.

The Führer accordingly has decided that the Jews shall not be deported to Madagascar but to the East. Therefore it is no longer necessary that Madagascar be taken into consideration for the final solution.

Source:
Akten zur Deutschen Auswärtigen Politik 1918-1945, Series E, vol. I, p. 403. Herbert A. Strauss, General Editor, "Jewish Immigrants of the Nazi Period in the USA" Vol. 4 - Jewish Emigration from Germany 1933-1942: A Documentary History


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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:41 pm)

Hannover wrote:
Do we have Zimmerman's original sources?


His notes from the exerpts I quoted are:
<< "This is also explained by the fact that Himmler kept all these matters
very secret. We [Goring and Hitler] were never given figures or any other
details."9 IMT, Vol. 9, p. 611.>>

<< In fact, when Goring was informed that the indictment stated that the destruction of the Jews was a part of planning aggressive wars, he replied that "the destruction of the Jewish race was not planned in advance."11 IMT, Vol. 9, p. 276 >>

Since these exerpts are given out of context and I cannot say much. It would be interesting to see,besides context, if Zimmerman's english translation of the german originals are really correct.

It seems what Zimmerman is saying is that the actual resettlement of the jews to the east during war years, if true, would be a great defense(for Goring et al) against the claim that Nazi Germany had tried to exterminate all jews in gas chambers,etc. The nazis could have claimed: "see, all this documentation proves where/how the jews were resettled!"
Zimmerman suggests that the german defense at the trials did not use it -the specifics of this resettlement- because they knew it to be false.

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Postby code yellow » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:37 pm)

:) Otto Dietrich,Hitler's press chief from 1933-45,wrote a book on hitler while still interned in the british camp Fallingbostal.He requested that his manuscript be published after his death.

Dietrich died a year after his release from prison in 1952,and his manuscript was published in 1955.Dietrich stated that after his death,he felt his credibility could not be challenged on the grounds of self interest,wich makes sense to me.

On page 23 of his book,he writes,"Hitler also presented the solution of the jewish question on a humanitarian basis.THERE WAS NO TALK AT ALL OF THE EXTERMINATION OF THE JEWISH RACE.Although he demanded the curbing of their excessive influence apon the government and economy,the jews were still to be allowed to lead their own lives."

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:23 pm)

Anyone who has read anything at all about the Nuremberg trials will know that the defense were allowed only the documents selected by the prosecution. There was no way for the defense to produce documents that might have helped them as they simply didn't have access to the documents.

Anti-revisionists always like to assert that certain matters are troublesome for revisionists, but I can't say I've seen revisionists to be troubled by anything. The picture painted by these anti-revisionists is almost always at odds with the reality that any observant person will notice if he pays the subject any attention.

People like Zimmerman are counting on people leap-frogging the revisionist work straight to the anti-rev material to reaffirm their beliefs.

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Postby code yellow » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:58 pm)

:) The thing I find most curious about the holocaust phenomena is why people are so dead set on holding on to the elleged claims as true?

I would think that anyone with a humanitarian sense would rather investigate the claims further and find that the elleged victims of these elleged horribe crimes did not suffer so cruely,especialy decendants of internees.

The holocaust itself is truly a defamation of their own dead.

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:40 am)

grenadier wrote:Hannover wrote:
Do we have Zimmerman's original sources?

His notes from the exerpts I quoted are:
"This is also explained by the fact that Himmler kept all these matters very secret. We [Goring and Hitler] were never given figures or any other details." 9 IMT, Vol. 9, p. 611.
In fact, when Goring was informed that the indictment stated that the destruction of the Jews was a part of planning aggressive wars, he replied that "the destruction of the Jewish race was not planned in advance." 11 IMT, Vol. 9, p. 276
Since these excerpts are given out of context and I cannot say much. It would be interesting to see, besides context, if Zimmerman's english translation of the german originals are really correct.
These quotes are not difficult to find, at least as the transcript of the English interpreter.

The first one is here: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/03-21-46.htm

The second one is here: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/03-14-46.htm

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:55 am)

Vallon wrote:
These quotes are not difficult to find, at least as the transcript of the English interpreter.


Thanks for the links Vallon. A few days ago I had already found this Avalon project but in the limited time I had to peruse it I could not
find anything, things seem to be well hidden. I guess I will read the FAQ
when I can. How did you find your way around it? I used its search engine
but not even that worked.

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Postby Webmaster » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:03 am)

Google and Yahoo are your best friends. Highlight the text below and click on “G” or “Y” to do a search.

This is also explained by the fact that Himmler kept all these matters very secret


It will come up second in Google and fourth in Yahoo.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:13 am)

Both out of context indeed. AND, misrepresented in meaning, as one can read, thanks to Vallon's links.
"This is also explained by the fact that Himmler kept all these matters very secret. We [Goring and Hitler] were never given figures or any other details." 9 IMT, Vol. 9, p. 611.

What was really said below.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let me remind you of the evidence that has been given before this Court, that as far as Auschwitz alone is concerned, 4,000,000 people were exterminated. Do you remember that?

Goering: This I have heard as a statement here, but I consider it in no way proved -- that figure, I mean.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If you do not consider it proved, let me remind you of the affidavit of Hoettl, who was Deputy Group Leader of the Foreign Section, of the Security Section of Amt IV of the RSHA. He says that approximately 4,000,000 Jews have been killed in the concentration camps, while an additional 2,000,000 met death in other ways. Assume that these figures -- one is a Russian figure, the other a German -- assume they are even 50 percent correct, assume it was 2,000,000 and 1,000,000, are you telling this Tribunal that a Minister with your power in the Reich could remain ignorant that that was going on?

Goering: This I maintain, and the reason for this is that these things were kept secret from me. I might add that in my opinion not even the Fuehrer knew the extent of what was going on.

This is also explained by the fact that Himmler kept all these matters very secret. We were never given figures or any other details.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But, Witness, haven't you access to the foreign press, the press department in your ministry, to foreign broadcasts? You see, there is evidence that altogether, when you take the Jews and other people, something like 10,000,000 people have been done to death in cold blood, apart from those killed in

Note that here we have the lie of '4,000,000' defended vigorously by the court even though it has now been retracted. But yet Goering supposedly 'confessed' to what has now been retracted. Sure.
In fact, when Goring was informed that the indictment stated that the destruction of the Jews was a part of planning aggressive wars, he replied that "the destruction of the Jewish race was not planned in advance." 11 IMT, Vol. 9, p. 276

but the exact quote is:
Goering:
That has nothing to do with the planning of aggressive wars; also, the destruction of the Jewish race was not planned in advance.

Notice the shyster Zimmerman leaves out Goering's full, sarcastic statement which says there was no planning and no extermination. Ofcourse informed Revisionists can defend my statement in that there is no evidence for the alleged 'extermination'. Notice that Vallon, nor anyone else can present any which stand up to scrutiny.

here's more from Vallon's links:
DR. STAHMER: What did you understand by the term "master race"?

Goering: I myself understood nothing by it. In none of my speeches, in none of my writings, will you find that term. It is my view that if you are a master you have no need to emphasize it.

Goering, as one can read throughout his testimony, never bought into the lies of Nuremberg.


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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:57 am)

grenadier wrote:How did you find your way around it? I used its search engine but not even that worked.
I have not understood that Avalon search engine either. As Webmaster said, I used Google on a long string of words from the quote.

When I am searching something specifically in the NMT-proceedings, I search the Avalon site using Google's site-directive, like this:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22matte ... eb/avalon/

Hannover wrote:Note that here we have the lie of '4,000,000' defended vigorously by the court even though it has now been retracted.

The prosecuter referred there to "Hoettl, who ... says that approximately 4,000,000 Jews have been killed in the concentration camps, while an additional 2,000,000 met death in other ways."
Hilberg's latest edition says: "Ghettoization: over 800,000; Camps: up to 2,900,000; Open-air shootings 1,400,000; Total: 5,100,000." (Table B-1).

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:22 pm)

Vallon said:
The prosecuter referred there to "Hoettl, who ... says that approximately 4,000,000 Jews have been killed in the concentration camps, while an additional 2,000,000 met death in other ways."
Hilberg's latest edition says: "Ghettoization: over 800,000; Camps: up to 2,900,000; Open-air shootings 1,400,000; Total: 5,100,000." (Table B-1).

Yet Vallon cites Hilberg's laughably alleged numbers which have nothing to do with what we're talking about here in spite of the fact that:

- these numbers have been completely debunked ... at this forum & elsewhere

- Hilberg himself has been demonstrated to be a liar ... at this forum and elsewhere

Vallon has ignored:
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let me remind you of the evidence that has been given before this Court, that as far as Auschwitz alone is concerned, 4,000,000 people were exterminated. Do you remember that?

Goering: This I have heard as a statement here, but I consider it in no way proved -- that figure, I mean.


And, from a previous post of mine:
The story of six million Jews exterminated during the war was given final authority at the Nuremberg Trials by the statement of Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl. He had been an assistant of Eichmann's, but was in fact a rather strange person in the service of American Intelligence who had written several books under the pseudonym of Walter Hagen. Hoettl also worked for Soviet espionage, collaborating with two Jewish emigrants from Vienna, Perger and Verber, who acted as U.S. officers during the preliminary inquiries of the Nuremberg Trials.
It is remarkable that the testimony of this highly dubious person Hoettl is said to constitute the only "proof' regarding the murder of six million Jews. In his affidavit of November 26th, 1945 he stated, not that he knew but that Eichmann had "told him" in August 1944 in Budapest that a total of 6 million Jews had been exterminated.
Needless to say, Eichmann never corroborated this claim at his trial. Hoettl was working as an American spy during the whole of the latter period of the war, and it is therefore very odd indeed that he never gave the slightest hint to the Americans of a policy to murder Jews, even though he worked directly under Heydrich and Eichmann.

It gets worse:

Hoettl later confided in a published letter that the '6,000,000' account was a lie....which he had claimed to have heard from Eichmann.


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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:23 pm)

Hannover wrote:Vallon has ignored:
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let me remind you of the evidence that has been given before this Court, that as far as Auschwitz alone is concerned, 4,000,000 people were exterminated. Do you remember that?

Goering: This I have heard as a statement here, but I consider it in no way proved -- that figure, I mean.
Hannover said that the court "vigourously defended" that number for Auschwitz. That is incorrect.

Not even the prosecutor, Maxwell-Fyfe, clung to that number. He says it is a Russian number, and then he refers to Hoettl for a German number of 4 million for all the camps together.

And the prosecutor is even prepared to give Goering a discount of 50 % on Hoettl's numbers.

The Russians have retracted their number for Auschwitz. My reason for quoting Hilberg was to illustrate that Western mainstream historians have not rectracted the kind of numbers that Maxwell-Fyfe mentions for all the camps.

And, to return to the topic of the thread, Goering did not dispute that kind of numbers either. He claimed ignorance, yet he knew enough to dispute the 4,000,000 number for Auschwitz.

Edit: about Hoettl I found:
Toward the end of the war Hoettl managed through an intermediary to contact OSS in Switzerland. Despite the fact that OSS officials considered Hoettl dangerous, they believed he had useful information. First the OSS and then the U. S. Army CIC reportedly began to use Hoettl to ferret out remaining Nazi agents. Then Hoettl testified at the Nuremberg trials-for the defense-and worked for CIC. He also drew on unknown resources, possibly plundered Jewish assets which Kaltenbrunner had turned over to him, to set himself up nicely in postwar Austria, where he peddled intelligence to various customers, including the Gehlen organization. Simultaneously, he began to write books under a pseudonym about Nazi espionage.
http://www.archives.gov/iwg/declassifie ... eport.html

So I do not think that Hoettl was a spy when he worked under Heydrich.

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Postby Maly Jacek » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:50 pm)

The Russians have retracted their number for Auschwitz


to the best of my knowledge they did not.Figure was slashed down to 1,500,000 in 1990 by officials of Auschwitz Museum and then formally announced by Poles some years later


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