Are You Sure, Mr. Wiesenthal?

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Hebden
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Are You Sure, Mr. Wiesenthal?

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:54 pm)

For our sins, we have been reading the book Nazi Hunter - The Wiesenthal File by a Mr. Alan Levy.

On another occasion, Sereny asked Stangl: 'What did you think at the time was the reason for the exterminations?'

'They wanted the Jews' money,' he replied.

'You can't be serious!' she exclaimed.

'But, of course. Have you any idea of the fantastic sums that were involved? That's how the steel from Sweden was bought.'

'But.' Sereny argued, 'they weren't all rich...There were hundreds of thousands of them from ghettoes in the East who had nothing...'

'Nobody had nothing,' said Stangl. 'Everybody had something.'

As if to confirm Stangl's reasoning, Simon Wiesenthal cites a document signed by Stangl: a roster of items delivered by his Treblinka administration to SS headquarters in Berlin between 1 October 1942 and 2 August 1943:

25 freight cars of women's hair
248 freight cars of clothing
100 freight cars of shoes
22 freight cars of dry goods
46 freight cars of drugs
254 freight cars of rugs and bedding
400 freight cars of various used articles
2,800,000 American dollars
400,000 British pounds
12 million Soviet rubles
140 million zlotys
400,000 gold watches
145,000 kilograms golden wedding rings
4,000 karats of diamonds over 2 karats
120 million zlotys in various gold coins
Several thousand strings of pearls


We would be happy to look at a copy of this document if anybody knows of one.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:43 pm)

That's just another example of the 'we can say anything and you must believe it' mindset of the holocau$t Industry. The alleged (but not found) document is laughable.
Coming from Simon Wiesenthal, the highly paid shyster, one should expect anything. Here we have his 'human soap' testimonial...."it's the truth" he says.
(In the Nuremberg Trial, it was claimed by the communist Soviets that the Germans had manufactured soap out of murder victims. This fraudulent story has pushed by the Zionist dominated press for decades)

"During the last weeks of March (1946), the Romanian press reported an unusual piece of news: in the small Romanian city of Folticini, 20 boxes of soap were buried in the Jewish cemetery with full ceremony and complete funeral rites. This soap had been found recently in a former German army depot. On the boxes were the initials RIF 'pure Jewish fat'. These boxes were destined for the Waffen SS. The wrapping paper revealed with completely cynical objectivity that this soap was manufactured from Jewish bodies. Surprisingly, the thorough Germans forgot to describe whether the soap was produced from children, girls, men or elderly persons... After 1942, people in the General Gouvernement knew quite well what the RIF meant. The civilized world may not believe the joy with which the Nazis and their women in the General Gouvernement thought of this soap. In each piece of soap they say a Jew who had been magically put there, and had they been prevented from growing into a second Freud, Ehrlich, or Einstein... The burial of this soap in a Romanian village may be reminiscent of the supernatural. The bewitched suffering contained in this small object of everyday utility shatters the already-hardened human heart of the 20th century. In the Atomic Age, the return of the darkest witch's cauldron of the Middle Ages may appear ghostly. And yet it is the truth!"

Simon Wiesenthal in Der neue Weg, Vienna, no. 17/18, 1946.

in addition:
In 1990, a so called Israeli 'holocau$t' expert by the name of Shmul Krakowski admitted that the Jewish fat story was a legend. He then added, with limitless chutzpa, that the Germans were responsible for inventing this fairy tale just to torment the Jews*. The principle, of course, is: "the Germans are always guilty".

*Daily Telegraph, 25 April 1990.


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Karl S » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Apr 12, 2003 5:07 pm)

Hebden wrote:For our sins, we have been reading the book Nazi Hunter - The Wiesenthal File by a Mr. Alan Levy.


Mr. Lubomyr Prytulak at UKAR has compiled a very devastating comparison between Nazi Hunter - The Wiesenthal File by Mr. Alan Levy and Simon Wiesenthal, Justice Not Vengeance by Peter Michael Lingens.

Let us conclude that Mr. Simon Wiesenthal even beat Baron von Münchausen!

Simon Wiesenthal

Discovered Under the Floorboards

In reading Simon Wiesenthal's biography, one cannot but be impressed by his exactitude. Take this account of how he was discovered underneath the floorboards:

In early June 1944, during a drinking bout in a neighbouring house, a chief inspector of the German railways was beaten and robbed by his Polish companions. A house-to-house police search was ordered. Simon reburied himself several times and was in his makeshift coffin on Tuesday, 13 June 1944, when more than eight months of cramped and perilous "freedom" came to an end. As the Gestapo entered the courtyard of the house, the Polish partisans fled, leaving Wiesenthal trapped beneath the earth "in a position where I couldn't even make use of my weapon." (Alan Levy, The Wiesenthal File, 1993, pp. 52-53)

To remember not only that it was the 13th of June, but that it was a Tuesday — how impressive! And how appropriate that Mr. Wiesenthal be credited with a photographic memory:

He is helped by his phenomenal memory: Wiesenthal is able to quote telephone numbers which he may have happened to see on a visiting card two years before. He can list the participants in huge functions, one by one, and he can add what colour suit each wore. Although he writes up to twenty letters a day, and receives more than that number, he can, years later, quote key passages from them and indicate roughly where that letter may be found in a file. ... A man's civilian occupation, his origins in a particular region, his accent mentioned by someone — all these stick in Wiesenthal's memory for years. And, just like a computer, he can call them up at any time.

This permanent readiness of recall means that the horror is not relegated, as it is with most people (and increasingly also with victims), to a remote recess of the mind, but is always at the forefront, at the painful boundary of consciousness. Wiesenthal possesses what is usually called a photographic memory: he is a man who cannot forget. (Peter Michael Lingens, in Simon Wiesenthal, Justice Not Vengeance, 1989, pp. 20-21.)

But from someone in Mr. Wiesenthal's position, one expects no less — one expects just such exactitude as he is gifted with, just such precision, just such vivid and accurate recall of detail. All such things are essential when one is entrusted with the grave responsibility of accusing individuals and ascribing guilt to nations. And precise memory of such events is to be expected all the more of someone who was young when the events occurred, and when the events were traumatic and seared into his memory.

As Mr. Wiesenthal has related the story of his life to more than one biographer, it is not a difficult matter for a reader to compare these stories in order to be further edified by the demonstration of Mr. Wiesenthal's remarkable memory. Take, for example, this other account of the same story of being discovered underneath the floorboards:

One evening in April 1943 a German soldier was shot dead in the street. The alarm was raised: SS and Polish police officers in civilian clothes searched the nearby houses for hidden weapons. Instead they found Simon Wiesenthal. He was marched off for the third time to, as he believed, his certain execution. (Peter Michael Lingens, in Simon Wiesenthal, Justice Not Vengeance, 1989, p. 11)

But this parallel version of the story is not precisely what the claims concerning Mr. Wiesenthal's memory led us to expect. The astonishingly accurate "Tuesday, 13 June 1944" has turned into "April 1943," "beaten" has become "murdered," "in a house" has become "in the street," the "railway inspector" has become a "German soldier," and the "Gestapo" has become the "SS." The last might seem like a fine point, but in fact the Gestapo and the SS had clearly defined and mutually exclusive duties: "A division of authority came about whereby the Gestapo alone had the power to arrest people and send them to concentration camps, whereas the SS remained responsible for running the camps" (Leni Yahil, The Holocaust, 1987, p. 133). Perhaps a fine point to someone who had not lived through these events, but to someone who had lived through them, then one would imagine a memorable point, one that should be easier to remember than, say, what color suit each participant wore at some huge function.

And so now we are forced to wonder whether this is the same event badly remembered, or whether Mr. Wiesenthal was discovered twice under the floorboards, once in 1943 and again in 1944. The more cynical reader might even go on to wonder whether any such event took place at all.

As the above comparison illustrates, and as a reading of Mr. Wiesenthal proves a hundred times over, Mr. Wiesenthal's salient characteristic is not that he has a photographic memory, but rather that he cannot tell a story twice in the same way.


Link: http://www.ukar.org/60minart.shtml#Wiesenthal

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Apr 12, 2003 8:20 pm)

Hebden wrote: We would be happy to look at a copy of this document if anybody knows of one.


Sorry, I can’t help.


According to Mattogno in Treblinka the above quoted list however is identical to one prepared by a Samuel Rajzman and is included in USSR-337, GARF (State Archive of the Russian Federayion, Moscow).

J. Gumkowski and A. Rutkowski also wrote a book titled Treblinka and published in it photocopies of two documents about shipment of clothes and shoes from Treblinka. These documents are Wehrmacht letters.

The shoe letter is about the shipment of 20,000 pair of shoes of unknown origin to Lublin. With 870,000 alleged inmates in Treblinka there would be 870,000 pairs of shoes with a total weight of 226,000kg, which would require 43.5 freight cars. (100 freight cars could handle the shoes of 2 million inmates).

Concerning the clothes Mattogno calculates: If each the 870,000 alleged inmates would wear and carry with him 10kg clothes, spare clothes, pillows, blankets), this would give 8,700,000kg which would reqire 1,300 freight cars.

Mattogno made the following calculation avout the 25 freight cars of women’s hair:
At 15g weight of the hair from one woman the number of women involved would be (25x3,000/0.015) = five million women! :D

Mattogno comes to the conclusion that the list prepared by S. Rajzman cannot be backed up with documents and is therefore the fruit of pure phantasy. :D

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sun Apr 13, 2003 4:52 pm)

Sailor wrote:According to Mattogno in Treblinka the above quoted list however is identical to one prepared by a Samuel Rajzman and is included in USSR-337, GARF (State Archive of the Russian Federayion, Moscow).


Thank you for the information but we had in the meantime discovered Mr. Rajzman for ourself in the Arad book Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka - The Operation Reinhard Death Camps:

Shmuel Rajzman testified that he, the "camp elder" Galewski, and the capo of the Lazarett, Ze'ev Korland, kept a secret watch on the number of transports of Jews that were brought to the gas chambers in Treblinka and then the transports leaving Treblinka with the belongings of the victims. According to Rajzman, the transports with belongings included 248 railway cars of clothing, 100 cars of shoes, 22 cars of material, 260 cars of bedding, about 450 cars with various different articles and household goods, and hundreds more cars with various rags - all in all, about 1,500 cars full of belongings.

Franciszek Zabecki, a Pole who worked in the railway station at Treblinka, writes that from the account he kept while watching the railway station at Treblinka, more than 1,000 cars full of the victims' belongings passed through the station. This estimate is very close to exact, as verified by documents that have come into our possession from the Gedob relating to three freight trains with clothing that were sent from Treblinka to Lublin by way of Siedlce. The first was on September 9, at which time 51 cars left; the second was on September 13, on which date 50 cars left; and the third on September 21, with 52 cars. In all, in a matter of twelve days in September 1942, 153 cars full of victims' clothing left Treblinka. [we omit some typical back-of-the-envelope style calculations] Therefore, we may estimate the quantity of belongings that the Jews brought with them during the entire period of the camp's operation at a minimum of 1,200 railway cars.


Some comments:

i) the leap from Mr. Rajzman's secret count to Mr. Wiesenthal's official figures on a document signed by Camp Commandant Stangl;

ii) the source for these 3 Treblinka-Lublin freight transports is unclear - the pertinent reference cites a book by the witness Zabecki but the context suggests that Mr. Arad has turned up these potentially crucial documents himself. So where are they?

iii) In the Generalgouvernement, the former Polish Railways (PKP), was taken over by Gedob (Generaldirektion der Ostbahn/ General Management of the Eastern Railways) managed by Germans. Gedob's main headquarters was in Krakow, but had branches in major cities such as Warsaw, and Lublin.

iv) Should any discovery that the Germans confiscated very large amounts of textiles be considered especially incriminating? In other words, would the Germans have resettled Jews in the inhospitable Russian East whilst depriving them of most, if not all, of their clothing?

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sun Apr 13, 2003 9:59 pm)

Hebden wrote: This estimate is very close to exact, as verified by documents that have come into our possession from the Gedob relating to three freight trains with clothing that were sent from Treblinka to Lublin by way of Siedlce. The first was on September 9, at which time 51 cars left; the second was on September 13, on which date 50 cars left; and the third on September 21, with 52 cars.


Mattogno talks about the two documents which are “Wehrmachtsfrachtbriefe” (army lading letters) with photo copies in Gumkowski’s and Rutkowski’s book Treblinka.
One is dated Treblinka, September 13, 1942 and is about 50 wagons with “Bekleidungsstücke der Waffen-SS” (clothing for the SS) to Lublin. The other document is dated Treblinka, September 10, 1943 and is about the shipment of 5200kg shoes also to Lublin.

According to Mattogno these documents do not indicate that the material is the property of deported Jews. This is especially unlikely about the “Bekleidungsstücke der Waffen-SS” because the Waffen-SS had nothing to do with the Treblinka camp and it is not clear what the Waffen-SS would use civilian clothes for. It is possible that the mentioned clothings are simply Waffen-SS uniforms from the Eastern front for the purpose of cleaning/delousing/sorting were transshipped through Treblinka.

iv) Should any discovery that the Germans confiscated very large amounts of textiles be considered especially incriminating? In other words, would the Germans have resettled Jews in the inhospitable Russian East whilst depriving them of most, if not all, of their clothing?


I would say so. Not many would survive if left stranded in Russia without proper clothing and “creature comfort”.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sun Apr 13, 2003 11:51 pm)

Hebden said:
...would the Germans have resettled Jews in the inhospitable Russian East whilst depriving them of most, if not all, of their clothing?


Ofcourse the standard storyline goes that they were sent away ("resettled"*) to be exterminated, which in itself is ridiculous when the inefficency of such an endeavor is obvious. Why transport them great distances, using valuable rail transport, men, fuel, etc. just to kill them? It all could have been done without such a wasteful process.

*Only the protectors of the holocau$t faith can decide when words do not mean what they say.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Apr 14, 2003 1:27 am)

Hannover wrote:
Ofcourse the standard storyline goes that they were sent away ("resettled"*) to be exterminated, which in itself is ridiculous when the inefficency of such an endeavor is obvious. Why transport them great distances, using valuable rail transport, men, fuel, etc. just to kill them? It all could have been done without such a wasteful process.

- Hannover


What method would you suggest then?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Apr 14, 2003 2:18 am)

I would suggest no method, nor did the Germans.

Do you find the tales about Treblinka credible? If so, why?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:08 am)

Hannover wrote:I would suggest no method, nor did the Germans.


You are in contravention of the guideline which states "No 'dodging', when questioned or challenged you must respond or leave the thread."

You claimed that the transportation of Jews to camps in Poland in order to kill them was 'wasteful' and 'inefficient'. It follows that you must have in mind a more efficient method. Please tell us what that might be or quit the thread.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:26 am)

Incorrect, I had no method "in mind", never said so, and there was none. You seem to be attempting a bit of mind reading, and please do not try to put words in my mouth.
I'm sure our readers could think of any number of methods that would not involve transporting Jews great distances, using valuable rail transport, men, fuel, etc. just to kill them?


to repeat:

Do you find the tales about Treblinka credible? If so, why?


- Hannover
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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Apr 14, 2003 5:48 pm)

Karl S wrote:
Hebden wrote:For our sins, we have been reading the book Nazi Hunter - The Wiesenthal File by a Mr. Alan Levy.


Mr. Lubomyr Prytulak at UKAR has compiled a very devastating comparison between Nazi Hunter - The Wiesenthal File by Mr. Alan Levy and Simon Wiesenthal, Justice Not Vengeance by Peter Michael Lingens.

Let us conclude that Mr. Simon Wiesenthal even beat Baron von Münchausen!


One of the pages at the UKAR site touches on the Wallenberg legend which is given full play in Mr. Levy's book:

Wallenberg was chosen for his mission on 9 June 1944 and was given a Swedish Foreign Office approval on 13 June. He was, most unusually, given explicit carte blanche to use any means he saw fit to rescue Jews, including bribery and direct intercession with Horthy (a privilege usually reserved for the Ambassador).45 All this took time, and Wallenberg did not actually reach Budapest until 9 July 1944, the day the deportation of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz ceased. The ending of the deportation of Hungarian Jewry came on instructions from Admiral Horthy, who had become convinced, from a variety of foreign reports and representations, that Jews were deported not to work in factories (as stated by the Germans) but to meet their deaths. A relatively liberal government, bent upon making a separate peace with the Allies, was in power in Hungary between July and October 1944; during that period anti-semitic excesses decreased sharply. By the time Forenc Szalasi, the pro-Nazi head of the Arrow Cross, had been installed as leader of Hungary in late October 1944, deportations to Auschwitz were no longer a goal of Nazi policy: Jews were now needed as slave labourers, and Himmler had determined to end the extermination camps, probably fearing retribution by the Allies.46 Thus Wallenberg did not save the Jews of Budapest from deportation to Auschwitz. His efforts were aimed, first, at preventing Jews from being murdered by marauding gangs of Arrow Cross anti-semites; second, at creating ‘safe houses', organised by foreign embassies and hence under foreign protection where Jews could live without fear; third, by deterring the Nazi-organised ‘death marches' begun by Eichmann in November 1944; and fourth, by allegedly preventing a massacre, by Nazis and Arrow Cross men, of the Budapest ghetto shortly before its liberation by Soviet troops in January 1945.


( http://www.ukar.org/rubins01.shtml )

Here is Mr. Wiesenthal on Mr. Wallenberg in the Levy book:

Had the Schutzpass been Wallenberg's only contribution to history, he might have merited the Nobel Peace Prize for which Wiesenthal keeps nominating him on the assumption that he is alive until proven dead. 'He developed as a hero from the moment he was sent to save lives,' says Simon. 'Soon, helping others became more meaningful that his own life. Many times he risked his life. Eichmann tried a few times to kill him, but he could also have been killed whenever a transport of people was going out and he, with his great courage, would follow the transport in his car. When the transport stopped at a station, he would go to the prisoners and pass out as many Swedish protection passports as he had. Then he would race ahead to the next station and, when the transport arrived, make a scandal for the SS about deporting Swedish citizens. In that way, he saved thousands from odds that were ninety-nine to one....'
'Against them?' he is asked.
'Against him,' Wiesenthal clarifies, for hope was less than one in a thousand for Hungarian deportees in the Holocaust's final fury: no more 'selections' awaited them at Auschwitz, where they were sent directly to death.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 7 years ago (Tue Apr 15, 2003 2:10 pm)

Sailor wrote:Mattogno talks about the two documents which are “Wehrmachtsfrachtbriefe” (army lading letters) with photo copies in Gumkowski’s and Rutkowski’s book Treblinka.
One is dated Treblinka, September 13, 1942 and is about 50 wagons with “Bekleidungsstücke der Waffen-SS” (clothing for the SS) to Lublin. The other document is dated Treblinka, September 10, 1943 and is about the shipment of 5200kg shoes also to Lublin.


Do Mr. Mattogno and (not forgetting) Mr. Graf mention this document?:

In the daily report of October 24 1942, included in "War Diary no. 1", a German military commander in the Generalgouvernement ("Government General", i.e. Nazi-occupied Poland), complains as follows:

"Supreme Command Ostrow informs that the Jews in Treblinka are not adequately buried and that, as a result, an unbearable body stench befouls the air."



http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/Treblinka-graves/

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:08 pm)

Hebden wrote:Do Mr. Mattogno and (not forgetting) Mr. Graf mention this document?


I do not find a reference to this diary entry in their book.

The alleged number of deportees to Treblinka is about 850,000. It standes to reason to assume that some of these people died there.
Also in the Stroop Report is mention of the execution of about 1000 Jews from the Warsaw ghetto uprising to be done possibly in Treblinka.

Insufficient burial is no indication of mass murder of 850,000 people.
:D

fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:26 pm)

1st we must assume the veracity of the diary pages shown at the 'holocaust' History Project site...which is a real leap, as the HHP is not exactly known for their 'accuracy'.

The Stroop Report has many questionable elements to say the least. There is no firm foundation for saying 1000 Jews were sent to Treblinka to be executed. To start that discussion in this thread will ultimately lead to the interpretation of "liquidierung (can be used to mean 'wind up'...end) and the absurd notion that the 'onset of darkness caused Jews to be sent to Treblinka for execution', which makes zero sense. A different thread to be sure.

It all seems quite silly however, since we must consider the fact that the alleged pit at Treblinka which supposedly held 900,000 Jews has never been found...a most telling fact considering how big a pit for 900,000 would necessarily be.

- Hannover
Last edited by Hannover on Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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