Jewish deaths under Stalin

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Hannover
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:01 pm)

The problem is that if my hypothesis is correct, Jewish deaths in the Holocaust were due not to the Germans, but to us - the allies, courtesy of Josef Stalin sending Jews to camps designed by Fraenkel and Bermann. That Stalin had Jews worked to death in camps is a certainty. The only issue that matters now is the numbers.

The problem is that you have not shown anything to support the false 6,000,000 claim, which you admit. Without that we are left with the knowledge that indeed Jews were deported enmasse to the Soviet interior; which ofcourse means that they weren't even available to be 'exterminated' by the Germans. Claims of millions of dead in Soviet gulags, largely run by Jews, are heretofore unfounded.

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Postby al_aks » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:38 pm)

bridgebuilder wrote:A couple of corrections first: the Tripper book was "Eleven Years in Soviet prison camps" by Elinor Tripper (Hollis and Carter, London 1951). And Robert Conquest's book is "Kolyma: The Arctic Death Camps" (Oxford University Press, 1978.)

Conquest writes on Kolyma (p.75.):
"Prisoners who were released were, if under fifty and not declared invalids, forbidden to leave Kolyma. So were those over fifty if their skills were urgently needed in the region - that is everyone from engineers to cooks. After the war, there was a special regulation for prisoners of German origin, including Volga Germans, German exiles and even German Jews. They had to sign an application to stay, and almost all were sent to a special community barracks in the remote area of Tyenki."

Though Conquest provides no numeric break-up of his particular data here, he elsewhere uses Lloyd's register shipping figures to arrive at a minimum estimate of Kolyma deaths as 3,000,000. And Kolyma, of course, was only one of very many Gulag regions. The vast majority of Kolyma deaths would have been Russian, but there were clearly Jews, as we see above and I stress they were "German Jews" and they were there "AFTER THE WAR". Conquest's chapter nine, "The Death Roll" (p.214) even begins with the words "Cold Auschwitzes of the North ..." from a poem of Yuri Galanskov, who died in 1972 under forced labour. We have the names of 106 Kolyma camps (Conquest, p.214) and can estimate their total at about 140. What we know of them is from prisoner testimony, but from many of the Arctic camps, such as those on Novaya Zemlya, not a single prisoner returned.

Conquest tells us that the number of prisoners in the labour camp system after the war was double the number in 1940. And the treatment of Polish prisoners (presumably some of whom were Jews) was horrific. Here is Conquest: (pp.218-220):

"After the Soviet occupation of eastern Poland in October 1939, about 1,060,000 Poles were sent to prisoner-of-war camps, 'forced settlement', or - about 440,000 of them - to labour camps. About 270,000 died in the period up to the release of the survivors two to two and a half years later. Leaving aside special operations against prisoners of war, such as the Katyn massacre, the great majority of these casualties appear to have taken place among the 440,000 who were sent to labour camps. Which is to say, as a general estimate, that about half of these died. This ratio is, of course, for the whole labour camp system throughout the Soviet Union, most of which did not equal the lethal effects of Kolyma. In Kolyma, therefore, we can certainly assume a higher death rate. And we are in fact told that no Poles at all returned of 3000 sent to the Chukhotsk camps. And in a less extreme area, one notes of Maldyak, 'In the first two and a half months ... out of the total of 20 Poles in my group, 16 died. Four, including myself, survived.' At Komsomolets, there were 46 survivors out of 436. By September 1941, 60 per cent of those held in the rather less rigorous camps on the Kolyma River had died.

In all, of 10,000-12,000 Poles sent to Kolyma in 1940 and 1941, 583 survived to return under the amnesty, between October 1941 and July 1942. Even on the best assumptions, this must give a figure of some 75-80 per cent dead per annum."

Conquest goes on to discuss "katorga" and the treatment of Ukrainian nationalists, but it is only a more harrowing version of the above. The points are that the Soviet labour system was more than capable of eliminating prisoners in their tens of millions, that it DID eliminate prisoners in their tens of millions and that some of the post-War inmates were Jews.

The problem is that if my hypothesis is correct, Jewish deaths in the Holocaust were due not to the Germans, but to us - the allies, courtesy of Josef Stalin sending Jews to camps designed by Fraenkel and Bermann. That Stalin had Jews worked to death in camps is a certainty. The only issue that matters now is the numbers.




Hello, bridgebuilder

May I ask you to scan pages you mentioned in message above and post them somewhere in WWW. I need to download original Conquest's pages ( English variant not translation to Russian ) - to store them in picture mode into my 20-Century-Mythlogy DB.

PS. Dear bridgebuilder, - total POPULATION COUNTS of Kolyma Area NEVER exeeded 300.000 !!!! Even in time of intensive exploration of gold and other polymetal mineral mining ( 1950-1970). So - data you reffered from Conquest is A REAL FICTION ( trush ).

Thank you.
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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:52 pm)

Years ago, I read most of Conquest's huge book on the Stalin Purges and I wasn't convinced that millions had died in those camps with the evidence he gave.

It's also strange that there's not 5 other authors writing about that subject. It's always Robert Conquest.

The idea that all the Jews did die, but in Soviet camps is untenable (can't hold up to scrutiny.) The Jews had too much power in the USSR at that time for that to be even a remote possibility. If anything the opposite is true: the Soviet leaders were in danger of being killed by the Jews. Which is what happened to Lenin (Fanya Kaplan killed him.)

One can't help thinking of Kevin MacDonald regarding all this, but it's already going too far off topic.

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Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:15 pm)

First, in reply to al_aks, yes, I will certainly try to post a scan of Conquest's chapter here tomorrow. Australian copyright law permit up to 10% of a work to be scanned and used for educational/academic purposes without violation of copyright and I rather hope the same applies in the U.S. (Perhaps the moderator might drop a note about any legal issues on this before I post it?)

Now, al_aks specifically wrote:
"PS. Dear bridgebuilder, - total POPULATION COUNTS of Kolyma Area NEVER exeeded 300.000 !!!! Even in time of intensive exploration of gold and other polymetal mineral mining ( 1950-1970). So - data you reffered from Conquest is A REAL FICTION ( trush ). "

Given the death rates, it is no wonder that the population of Kolyma never exceeded 300,000! The fact that allowed Conquest to arrive at accurate death figures for Kolyma is that Kolyma is supplied by sea. And the Soviet government, in a major intelligence oversight, had the ships of the Kolyma fleet registered at Lloyds of London. Four to five ships operated continuously. Conquest names the "Felix Dzerzhinsky", the "Dalstroy", the "Sovlatvia" (after 1940) and the "Dzhurma". These carried between 6,000 to 9,000 prisoners per trip. (Conquest, p.224.) Given that the seas were navigable for 7 months and that each ship made a round trip in 20 days. Conquest conservatively allows for 5 main ships, each carrying an average of 4000 prisoners, each making 10-11 trips a year. This comes to just under a quarter of a million prisoners per year. Over the period of its existence, the numbers swallowed up by the permafrost at Kolyma alone, must have been colossal.

Now in reply to other posters, it is not true that Conquest is the only writer of any consequence on the Gulag. There is Solzhenitsyn, of course and Dmitri Volkogonov's account of Stalin rather confirms it all. And no recent accounts of Stalin fail to discuss the Gulag.

Now on the evidence that the Gulag swallowed up the Jews in the camps "liberated" by the Red Army, my argument runs like this:
1. The Revisionist critique has demonstrated that whatever might have happened on a small scale, there is no way that the German camps could have accounted for multiple millions of victims. (I take this as read, so skeptical readers should peruse other entries on this site for technical and historical details.)
2. The evidence of Jewish families is that most families lost members somewhere in the period 1942-1945 who were untraceable after the War. (Revisionists jeer at his, on the basis of point 1, but I see no reason to doubt it. The point about refugees in Israel changing their names and then being listed as Holocaust victims under their original names seems to me to be tenuous in the extreme.) The universal Jewish belief of lost family members is evidence all by itself and it needs better demolition than simply asserting that since the Germans couldn't have killed the numbers that therefore the numbers must have survived.
3. Stalin transported Red Army prisoners and the Vlasov army to the Gulag from P.O.W. camps and had them (millions) destroyed by various methods, mainly by starvation under forced labour.
4. Some German jewish prisoners are listed as being in Kolyma, held in an isolated camp POST 1945. That is, some German Jews were transported to the Gulag.
5. In the period just before his death, Stalin planned a pogrom to eliminate Jews from the Soviet Union.
6. Stalin, in one of the mysterious events of the twentieth century, had earlier managed to eliminate Jews (Trotsky, Zinoviev, Bukharin etc. virtually ad infinitum) from top-level decision-making in the Soviet government. (Kaganovitch, Yagoda, Yezhov etc. were tolerated to organise mass-murder, but not to determine state policy.)
7. Allowing the Jews captured in the German camps to return to their European homes would have created a body with natural sympathies for their soon-to-be exterminated Russian Jewish brethren and thus become an influential anti-Soviet movement within Western countries.
8. The best way to avoid point 7. was to prophylactically exterminate the Jews captured in the German camps and blame it on the Germans. (After all, something similar worked at Katyn!) This, at the same time, would guarantee world-wide Jewish sympathy for the Soviet Union. The intended great Russian pogrom could then run its course.

Could Stalin have exterminated millions of Jews in secret? He successfully exterminated millions of other people in secret, so the case I present is plausible. Did it happen? Consider points 1 and 2 all over again.

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Postby al_aks » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:33 am)

Hello, bridgebuilder

Just a short remarks, while waiting you to post Conquest's "evidence".

Given the death rates, it is no wonder that the population of Kolyma never exceeded 300,000! The
fact that allowed Conquest to arrive at accurate death figures for Kolyma is that Kolyma is supplied
by sea. And the Soviet government, in a major intelligence oversight, had the ships of the Kolyma fleet
registered at Lloyds of London. Four to five ships operated continuously. Conquest names the "Felix
Dzerzhinsky", the "Dalstroy", the "Sovlatvia" (after 1940) and the "Dzhurma". These carried between
6,000 to 9,000 prisoners per trip. (Conquest, p.224.) Given that the seas were navigable for 7 months
and that each ship made a round trip in 20 days. Conquest conservatively allows for 5 main ships,
each carrying an average of 4000 prisoners, each making 10-11 trips a year. This comes to just under
a quarter of a million prisoners per year. Over the period of its existence, the numbers swallowed up
by the permafrost at Kolyma alone, must have been colossal.


Dear bridgebuilder, pls post here Lloyd's profilings for
"four-five ships" operated that time
to supply Kolyma with "prisoneers", foods, etc.
Pls, post a map and note transport rotes for that ships.

PS. BTW. I hope you know that present TOTAL POPULATION of
Kolyma Area not exeeded 300.000. About 150.000 of
them - are residents of Magadan city.


3. Stalin transported Red Army prisoners and the Vlasov army to
the Gulag from P.O.W. camps and
had them (millions) destroyed by various methods, mainly by
starvation under forced labour.




Stalin transported German's POWs
( with jewish origin - from Eastern front) into SEPARATE
POW camp too. About 10.000-15.000 German-Jewish prisoneer of war
were hold here up to 1948. Most of them were silently transported
to Israel during 1948. I "think" that most of them were starvated
in POWs camp somewhere in Mohave desert.


4. Some German jewish prisoners are listed as being in Kolyma,
held in an isolated camp POST
1945. That is, some German Jews were transported to the Gulag.



just see above


5. In the period just before his death, Stalin planned a pogrom
to eliminate Jews from the Soviet Union.


Oh, dear bridgebuilder, Stalin "planned a pogrom
to eliminate Jews from the Soviet Union" - not only after the WW2.
He also "planned a pogrom" prior to WW2. He wanted to do that in Crimea
Area. He wanted to "cache" all jews from USSR here and destroy them
in "gas chamber". Do you know that ?????

He wanted to "organize" Israel in Crimea and "destroy" it at all!!!!

Stalin - was a GREATEST STATESMEN !!!!

Do you know that he "planned a pogrom to eliminate Jews from
the Soviet Union" ... even after his death ?????


[qoute]
6. Stalin, in one of the mysterious events of the twentieth
century, had earlier managed to eliminate
Jews (Trotsky, Zinoviev, Bukharin etc. virtually ad infinitum)
from top-level decision-making in the
Soviet government. (Kaganovitch, Yagoda, Yezhov etc. were
tolerated to organise mass-murder, but
not to determine state policy.)
[/quote]

Trotsky, Zinoviev, Bukharin, Kaganovitch, Yagoda, Yezhov and others
are responsible in terrible death counts of Russian peoples in Russia.

Stalin was unable to stop them up to 1930. Due to intentional
mergering of VKPB party ( Vsesouznaya Kommunistichescaya Partia Bolshevikov )
with JKPR ( Jewish Communist Party of Russia ) initiated and finished
by Trotsky & Co ( jewish ) - just after Lenin's death ( 1924 ).
I hope you know that JKPR members hold a primary post in new "united"
Communist party!!!!

Thank you.
al_aks

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:41 pm)

bridgebuilder wrote:
The Jews who escaped the Reich to Shanghai etc, even were their numbers in the hundreds of thousands, do not even begin to approach the numbers claimed of the Holocaust. The revisionist response is to claim that the official numbers are simply preposterous and that there is no physical evidence of such colossal exterminations on German-controlled soil. Unlike many revisionists, however, I believe my many Jewish friends when they name relatives lost in the period 1939-45. There are very few Jewish families worldwide who do not claim to have lost a nameable loved one whose death they attribute to 1941-45. Now one line to take here (as some on this website evidently do) is that they are lying rogues. If one charitably takes the view that what they say is to be taken at face value, however (as I do) and also takes the revisionist critique seriously (as I also do) then the deaths had to have occurred elsewhere than under the Nazis. The Soviet Union is the ONLY possible alternative and the deaths could have occurred post-1945.


Interesting take on this matter bridgebuilder. I think that the main problem
with your view is that you attach too much importance to what your jewish friends claim, i.g. that they lost so many family members. That is a subjective thing. Many european jews did lose many family members during the war, not only due to NS persecution but because there was a war going on as well. There are about 296.000 officially certified deaths in german concentration camps and this is incomplete. That's a lot of people. Lots of others died in ghettos. Plus, a lot of people just simply became separated and never saw each other again. When a family
got deported, on the collection points the nazis would separate the able-bodied men and send them to forced labour camps, women and children to other camps and old people yet to others, according to sex. Depending on need, the inmates were repeatedly moved around. It would be very hard for someone to know what happened to their relatives at the chaos reigning at war's end.
With all the atrocity propaganda going on a lot of survivors probably just
assumed their relatives to be dead. I remember an article i read in an
important newspaper in my country less than a year ago. 2 jewish
sisters were split apart during the war years, sent to different camps.
After the war, each thought the other had been gassed and so went on with their lives. Eventually they emmigrated to Israel. When they got reunited in 2004 i think, they had been living just a little more than an hour's drive from each other. During the 1985 trial of Zundel, a survivor, Arnold Friedman testified that he had never attempted to check with authorities to trace relatives after the war. He had not ever heard of the International tracing service at Arolsen either.

The other thing I find faulty, bridgebuilder, is your interpolation of the very subjective claims of lost relatives with the 6 mil proposed by official Holocaust historiography.
The numbers proposed are totally unreliable! For one, if you take several
Holocaust historians, say, Reitlinger, Hilberg, Davidowicz, you see they
more or less agree on the death roll(4 mil, 5.1 mil, 5.9 mil) but
completely disagree on the distribution per camp and other locations.
How come? One of the few if not the only book by holocaustians on the
statistical topic is Dr.Benz's "Dimension des Völkermords". However, it is
tough not to think this work to be very dishonest and incompetent. Any jewish population loss in Europe during the period is considered by Benz to be a holocaust victim. The guy was killed in action as a soldier of the soviet army; Holocaust victim. A family was deported by the soviets, holocaust victims and so on. Benz neglects migrations during and after wwII. Benz does double counts and a lot of other things.
In connection to your proposal, the revisionist Sanning makes a case about 600.000 to 1.000.000 polish jews who escaped to the USSR and then got deported to Siberia. The sources are jewish charity organizations. I dont think they are very reliable. Certainly many jews died in the Gulag and in political executions once they lost their preponderance in the communist regime, but if you are looking for the lost 6 mil there, I am not sure you should find it. For one thing, though nobody knows for sure, I suppose that the incomplete figure of 2.700.000 victims for the Gulag for the period 1929-1953, compiled from archival sources available by Pohl, is, although too low, closer to reality than some exagerations we hear about. Anne Applebaum estimates the total number of forced laborers in the soviet Union at 28.7 million.
Political executions have been calculated by some researchers using the
archives, as close to 800.000 in the period of 1934-1953. These dont include "non-political" murders, such as Katyn.

In regard to the jewish Holocaust, I believe that the demographic approach is not going to solve anything either
way. The margin for error is too great due to unreliable census data,
tremendous population transfers during the war, imigration, assimilation,
border shifts, etc.

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Postby al_aks » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:40 pm)

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Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:09 pm)

First, a point to anyone who comes across this thread in future, I did post half of Conquest's evidence on the deaths at Kolyma, but the post was deleted on grounds of space, by the moderator. I take it then, that the fact that the Gulag swallowed up huge numbers is not in dispute.

Now, on Jewish deaths in the Soviet Union, there is the obvious point that one can not expect co-operation from the current Russian government. If the Germans have been hit for thousands of millions of dollars for crimes committed by Stalin, then one can hardly imagine the Russians placing themselves under a liability by admitting that they did it.

There are, however, some figures on Gulag-bound Jews in the literature, and on the size of camps intended for Jews. From one site I would judge to be anti-Semitic (http://www.lituanus.org/1985/85_3_02.htm) on the deportations from the Baltic states, we read:

"Among the deportees who devoted themselves to organized relief for camp prisoners was the communal leader from Kaunas, Boris Bernstein. He and the members of his family, working in their exile home in Yakutsk, collected from the deportees in the far north and other places the contents of parcels destined for their relatives in the camps, wrapped them, and prepared them for mailing. They also mailed letters from deportees and prisoners in remote areas to destinations abroad."

"From a cable received by the Association of Jewish Lithuanian Immigrants in Johannesburg early in 1942, it appears that a Committee for the Assistance of Jewish Families from Lithuania had been set up in the town of Barnaul in the Altay region"

"At the Congress of the Federation of Jewish Immigrants from Lithuania to the USA in June 1943, it was reported that by then more than 4000 parcels had already been sent to Lithuanian Jews in Russia (including refugees) by the Committee of Lithuanian Immigrants in Tel Aviv. Jewish Lithuanian immigrants in Canada and elsewhere also participated in funding this campaign."

O.K., 4000 parcels does not equate to millions of people, but it is clear that some Jews WERE deported to the Gulag. I have seen figures for the June 1941 Baltic deportations being about a quarter Jewish, but have been unable to locate the original. It is clear, however, that these Jews were not bound for apartments in the Arbat or dachas in the Sparrow Hills section of Moscow, but for hard labour in the camps. Now, if one reads Anton Antonov-Ovseyenko's book "The Time of Stalin" one reads (on p.291) that there are multiple barracks built in Birobidzhan with double bunks on Stalin's orders, each two kilometres long, to house Gulag Jews. Assuming the standard 10% per annum death rate and constant yearly replenishment, one can treat the figures as a simple actuarial problem using the formula for an annuity with a negative interest rate. Rather than do the sums and risk deletion by the moderator, I will leave it here for comment to develop.

The evidence, however, is that Jews were murdered in the Gulag and that some of them were from the West. If the inhabitants of the Birobidzhan camp(s) were deportees sent East from Auschwitz etc as the Red Army progressively ovverran the Reich camps, then Revisionism might turn out out not to be a heresy at all, but rather a doctrine with a very important role to play in establishing the truth about the fate of the Jews in the German camps: to wit, that they were killed to a man by the Allies.

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Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:34 am)

Some addenda to my last post:

The following is a website of an official ministry of the Republic of Latvia :

http://www.am.gov.lv/en/policy/4641/4661/4663/

It states:

"The deportation was prepared and carried out by functionaries of varied ethnic origin or nationality; no specific ethnic or national group can be held responsible for the deportation. The 14 June 1941 deportation was directed at the entire ethnically diverse population of Latvia. The brunt of the deportation was borne by the ethnic Latvians, who accounted for more than 81% of the deportees (their percentage in the population was ca. 75). The group with the highest percentage of deportees among their population, however, was the Jews: almost 2% of the Latvian Jews were deported.
The 14 June 1941 deportation had tragic consequences that have been hard to eradicate. Of each 10 deportees four perished in prisons, hard labour camps or in their places of banishment."

That is, assuming the four in ten figure applied to Jews also, we can conclude that about 1% of Latvian Jews died in direct consequence of the deportations of 14th June 1941, killed as a result of intentional mistreatment by the Soviet authorities.

The following website is also worth a look:

http://www.tspmi.vu.lt/files/leidpubl/str01.pdf

It claims that somewhere between 2000-7000 Lithuanian Jews were deported on that night in June 1941.

Now admittedly these are not figures in the millions, but they are reasonably large and in any case demonstrate that Stalin had no compunction about exterminating Jews. And they certainly demonstrate that the Soviets had the logistics in place - that is, they had the ability to move tens of thousands of people in a single night and in fact did so. Multiple barracks in Birobodzhan extending for multiple kilomnetres ought to have been good enough for holding reasonable numbers of Jews from Poland.

Is this proof that Stalin killed the Jews in the German camps? Nope, but the thesis that he did so cannot just be dismissed. There were reportedly something like 5,000 Polish officers drowned in the White Sea, quite apart from the Katyn shootings. Stalin usually practised trial runs. Perhaps this moustachioed former theological student now ruling in the Kremlin might have seen something apt in ordering the drowning of Jews in the White Sea, given that he had once been taught that they walked unscathed through the Red Sea with divine help. Triumph of atheism and all that. It fits the criminal psychopathology that was Stalin's. And the White Sea is a lot closer to the Polish camps than is Birobidzhan.

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Postby Mark_Twain » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:39 am)

Jewish deaths under Stalin are just another fabrication - just like the Holocaust.

If they can push 4,000,000 gassed in a litlle room in Auschwitz - then they can easily push a story of Russian Jews being killed.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:02 am)

bridgebuilder,
You continual posting of cursory, narrative points do not make a convincing backbone for your premise that Stalin killed millions of Jews. You have been asked for empirical sources and have not responded accordingly. Links to websites and citing author Conquest are not empirical sources. Until then, it would seem the fact that Jews were deported en masse to the Soviet interior is quite clear, but your assertion that millions were murdered is not.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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