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Vallon
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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:19 am)

ASMarques wrote:Tell me, why is it that we never get to directly see the elevator door? That would be great, wouldn't it?

There was no elevator door.

It was a flat box, basically just a platform going up and down, with some boards on the sides.

The elevator was not the bottleneck.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:05 am)

Vallon singles out a sentence by ASMarque to comment on:
Tell me, why is it that we never get to directly see the elevator door? That would be great, wouldn't it?


Vallon declares:
There was no elevator door.

It was a flat box, basically just a platform going up and down, with some boards on the sides.

The elevator was not the bottleneck.



Seems we have you saying, because you claim there was no door, that this lack of a door would have solved the bottle neck problem?

Let's see, it takes, say, three minutes to put bodies on the elevator, raise it up to the ground floor, take the bodies off the elevator, send the elevator down again and opening and closing the door, if there was a door, would take how many seconds more? Inversely, if there was no door it would have shaved how many seconds off each load? You, because of those seconds, conclude and declare quite tersely that 'The elevator was not the bottleneck.'?

I see you have avoided responding to other bottle neck problems? How long would it take to get the bodies through the inspection room? The place where they tore out the gold teeth, cut open the bellies, yanked the stomach, intestines and bowels out of the body and then search through the entrails for the swallowed treasure?

Here's another monkey wrench in the procedure. According to Berenbaum, in his 'Auschwitz: Anatomy of the Death Camp' he says new arrivals to be gassed were sometimes lead past the bodies stacked in the room where the ovens were. Gee. Going by the dimensions known of this room there wouldn't have been more than a foot or two between the ovens the bodies stacked against the wall. Then we would have the Sondercommandos involved with putting bodies into the ovens along with taking the charred carcasses out and then away to the outside.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:22 am)

Vallon wrote:
ASMarques wrote:Tell me, why is it that we never get to directly see the elevator door? That would be great, wouldn't it?

There was no elevator door.


Sorry. English is a foreign language to me. I didn't mean a door in the "wooden door" or "iron door" sense. I meant simply the door space. In my own language, "a door" has both senses, material object and open space in a wall. Unless it doesn't reach the floor. In that case it's called a window. Now, please don't say there were no windows in the elevator. There might have been. This is truly Wonderland. Anything can happen.

It was a flat box, basically just a platform going up and down, with some boards on the sides.


But look up your Pressac, the drawing by Olere. By golly, it's a real door! Yes, in the material object sense. What does that say to us about Olere & Pressac?

The elevator was not the bottleneck.


Okay. Let me make a small correction. Pressac & Olere are so confused that it's easy to get them wrong. I wrote "Notice that in the Olere drawings showing bodies being introduced in the room by the elevator, the door itself actually looks very different from one drawing to the other."

I was wrong in this because the first Olere drawing is supposed to be the door opening into the "gas chamber" (i.e. the morgue) on the underground floor, not the elevator door on the ground-level of the crematory ovens.

It's very easy to get things wrong, because Olere actually has on the left side of the undeground level, next to the "gas chamber" door, a three muffled crematory oven! In the caption, Pressac simply says Olere got it wrong in the drawing, and that's all. He still trusts the guy.

Note that Olere was an ex-Sonderkommando that must have spent a lot of time in the premises of Krema III...

That's the "Holocaust" world for you.

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Postby Freeman » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:36 am)

The "lift" does appear to be a bottleneck. The fact remains that with questions and issues such as these, laws which persecute those who question and wonder should not be on the books.

Furthermore from: "Critique of the Pelt Report by Robert Jan van Pelt, 1999." by an Anonymous author

A modern passenger lift serving only two floors, travelling at the usual rate of 1.5m/sec, with fully automated call buttons, cab control buttons, and automatic doors set to start opening and closing before the cab comes to stop can has had its travel time analyzed.

(a) Passenger operates button, doors open; approximate time: 3 sec
(b) Passenger enters car, operates button (2 sec) door closes
(3 sec); approximate time 5 sec
(c) Passenger carried bottom to top: 7.5 sec
Doors reopen (starting before elevator stops) (3 sec less
1 sec premature opening): 2 sec
(d) Passenger leaves 2 sec
Time to serve one passenger: 19.5 sec
To return for another passenger at lower floor:
Doors close: 3 sec
Run, top to bottom: 7.5 sec
Total round trip 30.0 sec


30 seconds is the absolute minimum for one passenger to travel one floor and the cab to return for the cycle to restart. We also note that the time is increased by 1.5 sec for every additional passenger.

Thus we can work out that for live human passengers, in a fast modern lift, with fully automatic controls and doors, 2,000 people travelling one floor will take:
In a 2 person lift: (30 sec + 1.5 sec)x1000 round trips = 31500 sec; 8hr 45min
In a 3 person lift: (30 sec + 3.0 sec)x 666 round trips = 21978 sec; 6hr 06min
In a 4 person lift: (30 sec + 4.5 sec)x 500 round trips = 17250 sec; 4hr 48min

Of course, live human passengers essentially loading themselves take significantly less time to load and unload than human cadavers, necessarily carefully placed on a delicate machine for fear of breaking it. Automatic controls will take significantly less time to operate than a manual cab control operated outside of the cab itself, by an operator on one floor who can only see the other floor by entering the lift shaft and peering up or down. Common sense alone tells us that each of the times given for the different loading capacities could be doubled or even tripled. It is also the undoubted fact that the smallest malfunction of the very heavily used and highly specialized lift machinery would bring the entire production line of killing and body disposal to a complete halt.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:39 am)

ASMarque:
Okay. Let me make a small correction. Pressac & Olere are so confused that it's easy to get them wrong. ...


Olere drew pictures of the cremas belching and billowing flames and smoke, which real facts would show didn't happen.

He also drew pictures of Bunker I or II with hills in the surroundings when there are no hills at Birkenau.

Olere drew a picture of prisoners melting down gold from the teeth. He shows one of them holding a small bowl shaped crucible in his bare hand as he applied a flame from one of those old paint remover torches to the contents. Gold melts at 1947 degrees F or 1064 C.

The crucible would have to have been red hot. Ooch, ouch.

It should seem obvious that Pressac was up to some playful, impish agenda when he put together his grand tome. To show the Holocaust story is nonsense.

Along with his some 60 pages of German funigation facilities and presenting the likes of Bendel and Tauber as witness statements, using Olere's drawings would be part of that.

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:11 am)

ASMarques wrote:It's very easy to get things wrong, because Olere actually has on the left side of the undeground level, next to the "gas chamber" door, a three muffled crematory oven! In the caption, Pressac simply says Olere got it wrong in the drawing, and that's all. He still trusts the guy.

Note that Olere was an ex-Sonderkommando that must have spent a lot of time in the premises of Krema III...

That's the "Holocaust" world for you.
You do not say what drawing you are referring to, but in the following one Olère show this platform clearly in the basement:
Image
C is the elevator.

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Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:36 am)

Vallon wrote:
PLAYWRIGHT wrote:In a box of 2.5 x 1.5 meters one could stack more than three bodies.


I've lost track of my note on this - but didn't they have a sort of wheeled trolly that they put the bodies on before they loaded them on the elevator? Makes sense, since you don't want the elevator fouled with body parts, fluids, ect. That would take up a lot of the room. Henryk Tauber describes the trolley somewhere.

The trolley would take up a lot of room.

Re the door: The goods lift in one of my family's warehouses doesn't have a door, but it does have a sort of sliding grate, to make sure things don't fall down the elevator shaft. And while it can carry a full ton, it's very slow. It isn't called by a button, you work it manually

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:20 am)

Crema III

"The corpse hoist is being installed on a temporary basis [awaiting delivery of an electric lift."

AUSCHWITZ:
Technique and operation
of the gas chambers
Jean-Claude Pressac
Page 214

That would mean, at some time the hoist was operated manually.


"Installation of the Demag goods hoist transport platform will be effected by a Topf fitter."

AUSCHWITZ:
Technique and operation
of the gas chambers
Jean-Claude Pressac
Page 230

There's a reference a deep diving researcher could seek out. The name of the elevator company - Demag. There it's referred to as a 'platform'.

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:24 pm)

TMoran wrote:"The corpse hoist is being installed on a temporary basis [awaiting delivery of an electric lift."

Jean-Claude Pressac, Page 214

That would mean, at some time the hoist was operated manually.


It would be very difficult to operate a 1500 kg lift manually.

So they borrowed something.
Pressac, p346: "Electric motor with lift gear, on loan! 10 HP."

A theoretical calculation shows that it would have taken at least 8 seconds to lift a 1500 kg load by 2 meters using such a 7500 Watt motor.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:46 pm)

Reading all this about lifts and the installation of electric lifts, all I can think is, why didn't they purchase/build a system for more efficient zyklon B heating, circulation and extraction? They know how the stuff works, they use it just down the road to de-louse clothing. Why such a crude system in the homicidal chambers? I'm sure even the least imaginative among us can easily picture a better system than that which is claimed was used.

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:54 pm)

Richard Perle wrote:Why such a crude system in the homicidal chambers?

Because it worked.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:18 pm)

Richard Perle wondered:
Reading all this about lifts and the installation of electric lifts, all I can think is, why didn't they purchase/build a system for more efficient zyklon B heating, circulation and extraction? They know how the stuff works, they use it just down the road to de-louse clothing. Why such a crude system in the homicidal chambers? I'm sure even the least imaginative among us can easily picture a better system than that which is claimed was used.



They already had something that would have worked better, the delousing facilities. Basically a fan blowing hot air through a sealed box that held the Zykon B pellets then on to the fumigation chambers via ducts. No baskets, not having to sweep up pellets, no teams of doctors and SS needed, all the Zyklon B being expended. Turn on switch, turn off switch.

Check out Pressac, from about page 10 to page 60 and witness what the Germans already had.

Vallon, evidently speaking of the Holocaust accounts that said they either dropped the pellets, or "crystals" in through windows or holes in roofs or lowered them down in little baskets into columns tersely declares in reply to Richard Perle's question, 'Why such a crude system in the homicidal chambers?':

Because it worked.


Interesting. The Germans went for the crude instead of the simple but quite efficient apparatii they had for fumigation? Did the crude work? Only if we believed the goofy eye witness testimony. The Germans had the intelligent designs on hand but they went for the crude.

Those stupid Germans. It's a wonder they could find their way home at night.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:53 pm)

Proof of the gas chamber fraud at Auschwitz is shown in the museum's own model. If you took a close-up of the morgue model with its piles of gassed corpses you would see that the bodies are piled towards the center and in the direction of the gassing columns. Despite the fact that all gassing accounts specifically say the victims rushed out and away from the gas source (ie the columns) scratching and clawing their way over the backs of the others in a desperate panic. If these accounts were true the victims in the diorama model would be piled up against the walls and the columns would have open spaces around them. If you look at the museum model it shows the opposite.

Why is this important? Because the standard story of Auschwitz's gas chambers holds that the gas chamber was vented by ventilation ducts running along the base of each wall. The model itself is a good example how, if the common account is followed accurately, those vents would have been blocked by the corpses of those who desperately moved away from the gassing columns. (Read the common accounts) Perhaps this is why those who made the diorama model moved the bodies inward, towards the columns, in direct opposition to known accounts.


Lately the NY Times has had a series of small buried articles on "Holocaust Deniers". Nowhere in the Times was there any space given to such forensic conflicts as the one above. The Times has never done any piece on the evidence behind this Holocaust Denial.

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:10 pm)

Richard Perle wondered:
Why such a crude system in the homicidal chambers?


Vallon replied:
Because it worked.


Of course it worked, just not in the way you think. :lol:

I see Vallon chose to ignore all the practical logistical impossibilities
that were advanced by several members.
It takes a lot of faith to keep believing, doesn't it Vallon? Oh well,
but then you seem like a very pious fella.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:05 pm)

Vallon wrote:
Richard Perle wrote:Why such a crude system in the homicidal chambers?

Because it worked.


It worked even without holes in the roof?

Don't you find it odd that the heating and blowing systems used in the de-lousing gas chambers were not put to use in the murder chambers? I do.


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