ONE PICTURE = 1000 WORDS

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
ASMarques
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 625
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:28 pm)

Vallon wrote:You do not say what drawing you are referring to, [...]


My edition of the book is in Portuguese ("Os Crematorios de Auschwitz", 1994), but I suppose the figure numbers will be the same in the English edition or the original CNRS French one.

The wrong one is fig. 50. Here is what Pressac says in the caption (translated into English): "Drawing by David Olere: extraction of the bodies from the gas chamber of crematory III and transport to the elevator (the trimuffle oven partially visible at left is in reality situated on the ground level floor)."

Then we have the other image, fig. 51. Here we see three Sonderkommandos introducing bodies directly into a fully functioning oven (large flammes are leaping out from the inside!). Also a double door on the elevator and a sort of conveyor belt on the right.

Sorry, right now I don't have a scanner at hand. Maybe you'll be able to upload those two yourself.

User avatar
ASMarques
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 625
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:50 pm)

To avoid any confusion: I'm not talking about "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers" by Jean-Claude Pressac. The book I mean is his other one, with original title "Les crematoires d'Auschwitz - La machinerie du Meurtre de Masse."

Bergmann
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 382
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:29 pm

Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:26 pm)

I checked out the Olere drawings in my copy of Pressac's "Die Krematorien von Auschwitz", the German edition of the book. The pictures in question are designated "Dokument 32" and "Dokument 33". Both show single winged doors to the elevator shaft, from the alleged gas chamber and the cremation room.

Does that help?

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10149
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:33 pm)

Vallon seems to place great faith in Olere's incredible depictions. Here we have Olere's view of what Auschwitz supposedly looked like:

Image
Need I say why this is pure, impossible fantasy?

Vallon also ignores the fact that the crematoriums could not have cremated the number of corpses alleged within the timeframe alleged. Scientifically impossible, folks.

ASMarques is right to use his image of the scale model of the 'gas chambers' complex as they are officially alleged. There is nothing that the 'Holocau$t' industry can now do to support the absurdities that are of their own making.

Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossible story is the message.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
ASMarques
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 625
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:30 am)

Vallon wrote:[...] in the following one Olère show this platform clearly in the basement:

Image
C is the elevator.


Actually it doesn't seem very accurate. The elevator shaft "C" is much to narrow! Compare with the guard standing by.

Olere was a charlatan who, having been one of those Sonderkommandos who "miraculously escaped their turn into the ovens", depicted the same things he knew well (he worked and slept there) in different ways, according to need. As you know, standards of accuracy are non-existent when it comes to the "Holocaust". Anything goes. Nobody is supposed to even start noticing the obvious impossibilities.

If you compare the elevator's very narrow width in the underground floor ("C"), and the wide shaft on the ground level floor in what I called fig. 51 (that'll will be "Dokument 33" in Bergmann's book), you'll have an obvious contradiction; very narrow platform in the first case, quite wide in the second. Because the second drawing, of course, is where he shows the bodies arriving in the crematory room. BTW, the door depicted in fig. 51 is rather strange too. It looks like a double-winged door lacking the right wing! Very odd, because when closed it would cover only half the width of the elevator shaft. Not important anyway. Olere's drawings are fantasies for a purpose, loosely based on the reality he knew.

User avatar
ASMarques
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 625
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:07 am)

ASMarques wrote:If you compare the elevator's very narrow width in the underground floor ("C"), and the wide shaft on the ground level floor in what I called fig. 51 (that'll will be "Dokument 33" in Bergmann's book), you'll have an obvious contradiction;


Better still: in the Olere drawing you uploaded, the elevator platform is in the wrong place. It shouldn't even be visible. You get the same wrong impression in the photo of the Auschwitz Museum scale model. Even if one imagines that what Olere drew was the platform in cross-section, it's still in the wrong place. Should be to the right of "D" (the supposed "gas chamber" in cross section).

In fact, in the Bauleitung blueprints for Krema II (Krema III being its mirror image) the elevator is always represented as a very small rectangle to the right of anyone leaving the main morgue, i. e. if you stand at the entrance of the supposed "gas chamber", leaving it, the entrance to the elevator is on your right, not in front of you, as suggested in the drawing you uploaded. The orientation of the elevator entrance in what I refered to as fig. 51 in the "Crematorios" book agrees with the blueprints (only this time the scene is in Krema III).

Concerning the odd strip on the right of what I called fig. 51 (in my book), I have no idea of what Olere intended to portray. In the text, Pressac says it's a "wet ditch." I find this odd. If that's what it is, then it's not a "wet ditch" but rather a "water ditch", something Pressac avoided saying. It would become impossible to take the bodies out of the elevator platform without wading in the water of the ditch. Really odd. There are no indications of any ditches in the plans. It might be that Olere wished to draw some sort of indefinite strip-like object that might be taken for a conveyor belt, such as the Soviet news articles informed us about. Maybe you have some suggestion on this, as well as the other odd details and contradictions.

Vallon
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:55 pm

Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:53 am)

ASMarques wrote:Better still: in the Olere drawing you uploaded, the elevator platform is in the wrong place. It shouldn't even be visible.

In the side-view that I referred to, Olère had "folded" the the gas chamber to the right.
But he also made a top-view drawing:
Image
The elevator is at number "4".

Richard Perle wrote:Don't you find it odd that the heating and blowing systems used in the de-lousing gas chambers were not put to use in the murder chambers? I do.
When stacks of clothes are not heated, they are cold. The lice and the nits in them will be cold, their metabolism is quiescent, and they do not take up HCN from the atmosphere.

Also the air is stagnant if no active ventilation is used, and it will take a long time for the HCN to penetrate the layers of textile.

So it is a good idea to install ventilation and heating for desinfecting heaps of clothes. It will speed up the process by many hours per batch. But for warm-blooded animals and people the difference would not be more than minutes. Why bother?

User avatar
ASMarques
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 625
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:38 am)

Vallon wrote:In the side-view that I referred to, Olère had "folded" the the gas chamber to the right. But he also made a top-view drawing:


The top-view drawing is Krema III and it's correct. The side-view, however, is Krema II and it's wrong. When leaving the "gas chamber", the elevator should be on your right, i.e. "C" to the right of "D", not in front or to the left of "D."

User avatar
ASMarques
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 625
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:04 am)

The top-view drawing is a good one to appreciate the story, because the small rectangle representing the elevator is more or less in scale with what can be seen in the blueprints. Compare the size of the elevator with the size of the ovens to roughly estimate how many bodies it would be possible to rise to the level of the crematory room on each trip.

Now, if the witnesses are telling the truth, we have thousands of dead people in the "gas chamber", more thousands waiting for a shower in the undressing room while the dead bodies are being processed, and all of this depending on the elevator that looks like roughly the size of a single muffle.

If this is not a bottleneck, I don't know what could possibly be. We don't even need to go into cremation times etc. It's already a surreal story.

User avatar
ASMarques
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 625
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:35 am)

Looking up David Olere's biography on this page, I came across the following passage:

The work of David Olère has exceptional documentary value. No photographs were taken at Auschwitz of what went on in the gas chambers and crematoria. Only the memories of Olère, reproduced as art in his drawings and paintings, give an account of the horrible reality. He was the first to draw the plans and cross-sections of the crematories in order to explain exactly how the Nazis ran their death factory. He did not sketch for pleasure while at Auschwitz; there he was forced to work as an illustrator and to write and decorate letters for the SS. One of his paintings shows Olère painting designs on a lampshade.


Lampshades?! He painted himself painting designs on lampshades? I have never seen that one. I found this bit of trivia fascinating. I don't think they had a lampshade industry in Auschwitz. Could it be that...
:roll:

PLAYWRIGHT
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:17 pm
Location: Milwaukee

Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:17 am)

It occurs to me that the capacity and speed of the elevator are irrelevant, since they can only bring up bodies as fast as the furnaces consume them.

While some bodies can obviously be laid out in front of the furnaces waiting to be charged, there is obviously not room in the furnace chamber itself for 2,000 bodies. After a certain number of bodies has been brought up, operations at the elevator are going to have to be suspended, and the remaining bodies will have to wait their turn in the Leichenkeller.

I don't remember what Pressac said was the throughput speed on Krema III, but if you charge all 15 muffles with 3 bodies, and give a generous 1/2 hour to burn them, that gives Krema III a capacity of 90 bodies per hour. This means it would take 22 1/2 hours to burn 2,000 bodies.

Some bodies would have gone into "undressing room" for dissection and tooth extraction, but, taking that into account - after all, that room was already filled with their clothing and effects, which have to be removed and sorted - and the bodies that can be brought up into the furnace room, it's a good guess that it would be 14 to 16 hours before the "gas chamber" could be cleared of bodies, and the walls washed down and cleaned. Plenty of time for HCN to work on the plaster to form Prussian Blue.

Also, it seems to mean that they could hold only two or three gassings a week.

But the elevator is not the bottleneck it seems to be. Even at slow speeds, it could still deliver bodies to the furnace room faster than they could burn them.

User avatar
ASMarques
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 625
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:09 pm)

PLAYWRIGHT wrote:But the elevator is not the bottleneck it seems to be. Even at slow speeds, it could still deliver bodies to the furnace room faster than they could burn them.


I think that would be better stated as "the elevator is not the only bottleneck."

I agree, but I believe people who haven't the slightest idea about the technical limitations of crematory ovens, will find it much easier to accept that the whole story amounts to a gigantic idiocy, once they pay some attention to the simple movement problems during the "operation".

Also, readers should note that the ultra-performing figures you quote for crematories etc. are in fact impossible. What you are doing here is to use some extreme versions put forward by the minimally infomed exterminationists (I won't even bother to mention the other kind) for the purpose of reinforcing the impossibility of the whole story.

Radar
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 505
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:25 pm

Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:12 pm)

PLAYWRIGHT: Besides showing how deadly slow this operation would be - it also means that one of the best criticisms of Germar Rudolph's thesis is challenged. It's been said that the HCN wouldn't have had time to work on the walls of the Krema to create Prussian Blue, since they would have ventilated it out, AND washed down the walls.



If you go to the opening post and look at the gas chamber diorama you can see the opening for the floor-level exhaust vent at the merge with the crematorium building. If you simply draw a line out from the height of the pile of bodies it becomes obvious that the vent openings would have been blocked by bodies. Therefore you can't ventilate the cyanide gas out of the gas chamber according to the standard story. This is all you need to know about the Birkenau gas chamber forensics. You need not proceed further than this (although there is an assortment of additional conflicts to destroy the standard story)



Vallon: Also the air is stagnant if no active ventilation is used, and it will take a long time for the HCN to penetrate the layers of textile.



False. Cyanide gas is highly penetrative as all tests prove. You are simply ignorant of the Rudolf material. Cyanide gas/residue was known to coat and grab on to surfaces quickly by all known accounts. As is typical of holocaust promoters, the opposite is asserted.

"Layers of textile" What does this mean?

Vallon
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:55 pm

Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:37 pm)

Radar wrote:
Vallon: Also the air is stagnant if no active ventilation is used, and it will take a long time for the HCN to penetrate the layers of textile.

False. Cyanide gas is highly penetrative as all tests prove. You are simply ignorant of the Rudolf material.

Rudolf reproduces data from the Zyklon manufacturers, showing that Zyklon does not spread very fast in stagnant air (no people).
"Layers of textile" What does this mean?
The stacks of clothes that were to be fumigated. Or did they hang the clothes? I do not know, but I assumed they were in fumigated in stacks, and the process would take several hours.

Radar
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 505
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:25 pm

Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:02 pm)

So it is a good idea to install ventilation and heating for desinfecting heaps of clothes. It will speed up the process by many hours per batch. But for warm-blooded animals and people the difference would not be more than minutes. Why bother?



Vallon, you are confusing and altering different versions of Zyklon tales here. The "textiles" in the delousing chambers were warmed as holocaust accounts tell us. So any reference to 'cold' clothing is opposite what we have been told about delousing procedures. So your reference to cold clothing is a tangent that is untrue to the facts.

It is a fallacy and untrue that it would only take "mere minutes" to warm a gas chamber by body heat. If we were to reconstruct a Birkenau subterranean "gas chamber" and add the appropriate temperature sensors and other monitoring equipment you would find the chamber would remain cold and still be under the sublimation threshold for cyanide crystals.

Vallon: I'd like for you, or even any revisionist, to discuss my point about the vents being blocked by the bodies.

I think we've reached the point where crooked governments have abandoned previous unavoidable norms of determination of objective fact and resorted to oversimplified, evasive, broad edicts of "holocaust denial" in order to avoid exposing their participation in world-class historical fraud. The reward being any government which endorses holocaust tales is continuing the black and white fight against evil and is therefore purified and unquestionable itself. You can see how desperate they are to avoid simple forensic issues like the bodies blocking the vents.


In Orwell's brave new politically correct new world order world you must believe all holocaust tales or go to jail.
Last edited by Radar on Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests