Green, Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more

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comrade seinfeld
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Postby comrade seinfeld » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:49 pm)

aemathisphd wrote:This would all be very nice if it were true, but alas, it is not.

Here are the conditions for a typical delousing: A room with its furniture, empty of human beings, would be exposed to hydrogen cyanide escaping from Zyklon-B carrier, as the instructions recommended, for the course of 24 hours. This would allow for the carrier to release all the HCN therein and for the gas to then dissipate, making it safe to then enter the room.

Such conditions would necessarily leave serious amounts of HCN on the walls. In chambers specifically built for delousing, this would also account for deposits of Prussian blue on the walls.

Here are the conditions for a typical homocidal gassing: A room bereft of furniture, but filled with human beings, would be exposed to a smaller amount of Zyklon-B. Because the temperature in the room would be perhaps as much as 20 degrees higher (Celsius) and because there would be considerably more humidity in the room, the result would be a quicker release of gas. Because less cyanide is needed to kill humans than lice, the required exposure time would be significantly decreased. And because the gas chambers had forced ventilation, or at the very least because the Sonderkommando wore gas masks, the rooms could be re-entered quickly and the bodies removed. This would leave relatively little cyanide residue on the walls. Nevertheless, the cyanide is there.

There is no canard here, ladies and gentlemen. This is simple physical chemistry, as laid out in Green's several reports on Auschwitz.

Note that David Irving withdrew Germar Rudolf's expert affidavit in the application for leave for appeal in Irving v. Lipstadt. (Irving similarly vacated Ruth Polanska-Palmer's affidavit when Robert Jan van Pelt filed his affidavit.)

I am open to fielding questions on this, but I would appreciate not being dogpiled. Thanks in advance, and thanks to the powers that be for allowing me into the Revisionist Forum.

Have a great day.

a.m.


Excuse me for being a technical ignoramous as far as this subject is concerned, but wasn't it the case that Leuchter and Rudolf found that there was little or no evidence of the poison gas being found embedded in the walls of the supposed gas chambers? (This is. of course, in relation to the disinfection gas chambers, in which even today, I think, there is evidence of Zyclon B going right through the walls, so that, in absolute terms, there can really be no comparasion today as regards how much Zyclon B was needed to supposedly exterminate humans, and the amount that would have been used periodically to fumigate the contested morgues.) Therefore what Andrew is asserting is beside the point. Or was it the case that more significant amounts of Zyclon B were found in what the revisionists would say were the walls of the morgues. There would surely have to be disinfection in any case with the Zyclon B, especially in the morgues; and were there any amount of Zyclon B traces found in other buildings which had nothing to do with the supposed homicidal gassings?

It is interesting to see Andrew posting in the TRF and I would hope that it is evidence of a more liberal turn of mind of those who control the forum, which is surely in their interest, if they want to be taken seriously. Therefore, provided everyone makes an effort to keep to the rules as they are actually presented, and no special favouritism is shown to particular individuals, then it should all work quite well, no matter what the truth of the "Holocaust" is.

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:15 pm)

Hi,

I don't know why it would be important to hunt down whoever and argue with them. It's not like they're going to change their minds.

The slow release of Zyklon is one of the killer apps in the debate. It takes at least 2 hours (unless forced hot air is being pushed through it - no jokes please) and that right there refutes every single eyewitness, except for 1 or 2 who say it took several hours or overnight to gas people.

That is why Pressac came up with these screwy Zyklon Scoopers. That is why van Pelt has bought into the Scoopers idea. The other side is committed to the idea that the Zyklon was removed before it was out-gassed, even though no witness talks about this.

As for cyanide traces.

Leuchter, Rudolf, Ball, Lueftl, and the original Krakow team found hardly any, at a ratio of like 1000/1 compared to the delousing chambers. The whole purpose of the second Krakow report was to devalue the blue stains in the delousing chambers, to lower to ratio to something like 10/1. Then they just made up stuff to fudge away that difference -- I especially liked the part about a column of water 50 feet high that had washed away the cyanide stains. Why don't you just say that there has been 15 inches of rain in Southern Poland on average every year? What's with this "Column of Water" BS?

The low and practically -- think in the sense of "practical terms" -- non-existent cyanide traces shoots down the argument that any large number of people were gassed in any of the crematoriums. That's a second killer argument.

A third killer argument is the absence of the holes in the roof. The latest riff in this direction was that two holes -- declared non-holes by everyone, including Pressac and van Pelt, were now "HOLES" and a third one was spotted hiding behind a locomotive. I kid you not.

A fouth killer argument is the fact that cremations take time, about an hour in any sustained situation. I just used my computer calculator, figure about a week to clear out a gas chamber.

So:

1. The slow out-gas of Zyklon: only response is to argue that the Zyklon was removed before it was out-gassed which is totally lame, and there is not a shred of evidence for the argument.

2. Low and non-existent cyanide traces, which are very durable: only response is to say that sometimes there are cyanide traces, and sometimes there aren't, and watch out for that big column of water coming our way.

3. There are not even four holes in the roof, never mind that there are NO holes in the roof: only response, oh, yes there are, if we study the photos from the war we can see them hiding in various locations; they are shy, and never mind that we can't find them today, there are at least four holes in the roof, so that must be them.

4. It takes an hour to burn a body, and there is no evidence from anywhere that supports 1/2 hour or fifteen minute cremations: response, how do you know if you haven't tried it, the Nazis did it, so it must be possible to do it.

Who wants to argue with that?

It's all over, really.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:53 am)

Dr Green is lying. He's obviously contrived the facts to fit the desired story rather than doing any objective analysis. As Secret Anne X points out, these mesh column contraptions appeared only when gas chamber story tellers realized their gas chamber accounts didn't fit the facts of Zyklon behavior. You never heard any survivor stories of mesh columns or still-outgassing pellets being drawn back up to the roof. These people are making this stuff up as they go along.


Elsewhere in the exterminationist universe are other camps where eyewitness accounts tell of pellets being poured directly into the chambers without any removal devices. These chambers also register low in cyanide traces.

What puzzles me is that Dr Green's statement to the court in the Irving trial was so flawed that it was almost a golden pinata being served up to expert revisionists. Green was so open to embarrassing destruction of his preposterous claims that I can't understand why Rudolf didn't seize the opportunity to take him apart in a public forum that couldn't be censored. It must be that the powers that control the holocaust story realized this and moved on Rudolf and Zundel. They realized they were about to be uncontestably exposed.


The morgues at Birkenau were alleged to have had millions of victims gassed inside them. It is virtually impossible that small or trace amounts of cyanide residue would remain after such an extensive gassing exposure as claimed...

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:34 am)

Right. They supposedly withdrew the outgassing Zyklon-B after a few minutes. Then what? In the meantime the cyanide is being released for hours in the open. Perhaps the entire camp was given gas masks.

Some 'secret extermination' process that would have been.

The idiots have created a story they can no longer sustain.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:20 pm)

Hannover wrote:Right. They supposedly withdrew the outgassing Zyklon-B after a few minutes. Then what? In the meantime the cyanide is
being released for hours in the open.


and so ? zyklon b was made for use in closed rooms not in the open. it is lighter than air, rises and is removed from the ground. and the ss could have solve it in water, it is well soluble...

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:26 pm)

and so ? zyklon b was made for use in closed rooms not in the open. it is lighter than air, rises and is removed from the ground. and the ss could have solve it in water, it is well soluble...

And so, show me how that was done.

Show me the proof that this was done.

Wind would blow it across the camp prior to placement in the 'water'.

What happened to this contaminated water?

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:29 pm)

The water-dissolved Zyklon would have gone into the water table where it would have created cyanide poisoning that would have been recorded.


In order to withdraw the Zyklon back up the mesh column they would have needed to bring it up in a container. How else would you do it? This means it would have been lowered in a container on a string. If Zyklon was introduced down the column in a can it would have limited the oxygen exposure of the pellets. Therefore the fast gassing rates claimed would be harder to produce.

This is simple science that could be proven by reproducing this simple compound (HCN) and doing tests with columns and buckets.

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:00 am)

Hi,

There are two big problems with Germania's idea. The first one is that, as Radar pointed out, the only way to bring the Zyklon back up is to lower it in a container to begin with. That would slow down the out-gas even more than before.

The bigger problem is there is no reason - no reason AT ALL - for taking the pellets out before they were out-gassed.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:37 am)

it is lighter than air, rises and is removed from the ground.

It's barely lighter than air. Not enough where it's going to shoot straight up to the sky like helium. Compare:

molecular weight of air: 28.88
molecular weight of HCN: 27.03
molecular weight of helium: 4
molecular weight of hydrogen: 2

SOURCES (excuse the haphazard sources):
http://www.ae.utexas.edu/courses/ase201 ... plots.html
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/cyanide/erc74-90-8.asp
http://www.public.asu.edu/~laserweb/woo ... ework1.htm
http://www.shef.ac.uk/physics/teaching/ ... unit3.html
-------------------
I think Secret Anne X has it right: they had to change the story. Why would Raul Hilberg, after 40 years of research and a 2nd version of his book, The Destruction of the European Jews (1985), never mention "kula columns" or scoopers and what all? In fact, in 3 whole volumes he gives one page to the gassing moment. That's not an accident. He knew all the problematic elements of the story.

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:27 am)

HCN will form a mixture with air and will not separate itself and rise to the top because it is lighter. Air is a gas mixture consisting mainly of oxygen and nitrogen. Nitrogen is also lighter than oxygen, but it will not separate and rise to the top, leaving us with pure oxygen to breath.

Both eye-witnesses Tauber and Kula testified that the Zyklon-B pellets were removed only after the HCN gas was completely discharged from the pellets, i.e. after 1½ to 2 hours.

No eye-witness reported early pellet removal.

Fillip Müller in “Eyewitness Auschwitz” described a spiral type insertion chute which was to evenly distribute the Zyklon-B pellets. I don’t quite understand how that worked, but removal of the discharged pellets from the top don’t seem to be possible with such a device.

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:02 pm)

Hi,

Arguments you will sometimes hear about Zyklon and how long it takes to out-gas:

#1 They wore gas masks

#2 They washed the walls

#3 They took it out and put it in water

All of these are just arguments about keeping to the time table in terms of getting the bodies out. That isn't the problem here. The problem here is the exposure of the HCN to the walls, leaving no blue stains and hardly any traces.

Kula testified to wire mesh columns, but that was just about how the gas got from the columns into the room. Mueller, who wrote his book in the '70's I think is the one who came up with the spiral staircase arrangement. Apparently he -- or the inventor of this contraption -- saw one of those things where you drop a marble down a chute and it goes round and round and then stops, and each marble after it stops behind it, and so on.

So, the idea of the Zyklon Chutes and Ladders thing was that the Zyklon would be poured in and the Zyklon - like marbles - each individual particle would slide around and then come to rest in the spiral. I guess the way you would recoup the Zyklon in this thing would be to have some kind of remote control or toggle lever to unblock the spiral and then all the Zyklon would go to the bottom, collecting into a can, which was connected by wire to the roof, at which point the SS man on the roof would reach down and haul it up, and then empty the out-gassing Zyklon into something else, that would then be taken somewhere else.

Anyway, it's not likely that anything like Mueller describes ever existed.

Pressac -- after Faurisson and after Leuchter -- is the guy who started arguing that the Zyklon was physically removed after ten minutes or so because he had to keep the timeline and he had to keep the exposure time low, to explain the lack of Zyklon traces today.

Tauber and Kula may have said that you had to wait for the Zyklon to out-gas but I don't remember them saying 2 hours.

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:18 pm)

Hi,

I have to correct myself!

Tauber said: "The sides of these pillars, which went up through the roof, were of heavy wire mesh. Inside this grid, there was another of finer mesh and inside that a third of very fine mesh. Inside this last mesh cage there was a removable can that was pulled out with a wire to recover the pellets from which the gas had evaporated."

This was in 1945, but it was "rediscovered" by Pressac in 1989. Certainly Tauber does not say the gas was left in the can for several hours, in fact in this case if it was in the can to begin with, the easiest way to administer the poison would be to just open a can of Zyklon and lower it lid-off by wire down the chute. In that case it would take maybe a day to out-gas.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:27 pm)

Hi Secret Anne X,

Your idea that Mueller saw one of those spiral chute contraptions is interesting. I've seen those. I guess he supposed pellets would be very similar to marbles. lol.

What's ridiculous about Mueller's story is that a simple hot air fan blowing onto a bowl of pellets would do more than this elaborate device.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:38 pm)

And if the Germans wanted to build real gas chambers, they would need to look no further than their operational delousing chambers. The known technique employed for delousing would have served the alleged mass murders quite well. But no, we hear all kinds of laughable, impossible claims. The 'holocau$t' Industry and judeo-supremacists have painted themselves into a corner.

Revisionists have them by the b___s, and they know it.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:35 pm)

When Tauber concocted his story, he was probably not aware of the time it takes to release the HCN gas from the pellets
Image
click on link for larger graph:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/Image19.gif
To make up the homicidal gas chamber hoax is not easy. Now the believers are stuck with it.
Last edited by Bergmann on Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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