Green, Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more

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Secret Anne X
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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:52 pm)

Hi,

I think for many years the stumbling block about Zyklon is that everyone assumed it acted like mothballs, which are strong pinesol smelling little white balls that evaporate over the course of days or weeks in a closet. Even Dr Butz in his book seemed to think that Zyklon acted this way, because that's what he got from Hilberg. Since most everyone assumed that Zyklon acted like mothballs, no one ever bothered to figure out "how to get rid of it" and people just assumed it was like marbles, or gumballs, or whatever.

Once Faurisson, Lueftl, and Rudolf laid it out about how long it takes to out-gas, and that under OPTIMAL conditions, the show's over.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:11 pm)

Hey Anne,

Did Hilberg ever go into that? Also, the mothball comparison would support revisionists, not be against them wouldn't it? I think a better comparison is alcohol. Except mothballs are good in that they are balls and outgas.

"Laymen" talk about how quick alcohol evaporates, and that's why it feels cold on your skin. Zyklon B evaporates much quicker than alcohol. But at the same time, soak some alcohol in a small wad of paper, and that paper will be wet for awhile. Alcohol doesn't evaporate as fast as people think. A splash of it on the skin will evaporate fast, but that is microns thin, and on a warm surface.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:39 pm)

Importantly Müller and Kula's stories cannot both be true, so one of them has to by lying. I see no reason to believe either of them.

But I'm not sure what to make of the "Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung" or "wire netting inserting devices" which appear on the 1943 inventory form for krema II. Revisionists have explained them as wire screens for windows but to me, the Germans calling them "inserting devices" causes that explanation not to sit entirely right, IMO.

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:10 pm)

Hi,

the term that I think Reitlinger and Hilberg used was "sublimate", as in "the Zyklon would be thrown into the gas chamber and quickly sublimate into the deadly cyanide gas" -- which we now know is nonsense.

Open a bottle of rubbing alcohol, or, for that matter, vanilla. Tell me how long it takes to evaporate. They will -- eventually -- but it takes a long time.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:15 pm)

I don't remember any revisionist mention of Kula saying the pellets were introduced and removed by a container on a string. I'm assuming Zyklon is an unstable compound that reacts chemically with air. The inert carrier material was gypsum in which the HCN was infused.

The most condemning aspect of the introduction device story isn't their ridiculousness. The real problem is the lack of hot spots in chambers without these alleged contraptions, of which there were many. If you recall, the story has it that the Kula columns were invented in order to gas more efficiently. However, before then the pellets were allegedly poured right onto the victims from above. This would have produced concentrated areas of pellets on the floor. If these pellets outgassed at their maximum while in direct contact with the chamber floor concrete they would have created chemical penetration no matter how much washing was done. I would even suggest that washing would only further the penetration by adding a fluid medium.

The one place where washing was impossible was the ventilation ducts exiting the morgue. I assume these were composed of concrete. If these cool and damp concrete ventilation ducts, that were in direct thermal contact with the outside underground soil, had warm, moist cyanide gas pass by them during ventilation they would have condensed out serious levels of cyanide. Leucter should have gone right to these ducts for his samples. If he could, that is, since they were in a protected, non-blasted portion on the morgue structure. This means they are probably still sheltered from weather and available for sampling. No reason not to.

In any case, Secret Anne X has it wrong. Most gas chamber accounts assume Zyklon gassed out like an execution gas chamber. This is obviously where these phenomenal 5-15 minute death rates come from. Death rates that would be hard to achieve with the Zyklon concentrated in a tin.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:23 pm)

the term that I think Reitlinger and Hilberg used was "sublimate",



Be careful. Actually it is technically "sublimation". This is the process of going directly from a solid to gas. This is why Mathis is wrong about moisture aiding outgassing. The chemical reaction of going from solid to gas takes heat away from the material, therefore it cools.
Objects undergoing chemical reaction cooling will draw moisture from surrounding humidity. This moisture coats the material inhibiting its exposure to the surrounding air.

The creation of snowflakes does the opposite. It goes from moisture in the clouds (a gas) to a snowflake crystal (solid). This process releases heat, which is why it warms during a snowstorm.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:24 pm)

Richard Perle:
But I'm not sure what to make of the "Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung" or "wire netting inserting devices" which appear on the 1943 inventory form for krema II. Revisionists have explained them as wire screens for windows but to me, the Germans calling them "inserting devices" causes that explanation not to sit entirely right, IMO.

That is another of the many Believer canards, taken from JC Pressac's discredited 'criminal traces'. Here is Samuel Crowell's take on it.

- Hannover

Criminal Trace #8 4 Dratnetzeinschiebvorrichtung
and
Criminal Trace #9 4 Holzblenden

Since these two elements on the inventory agree in number, and were written in, it is assumed by all parties that their function is connected.

Blenden are simply shutters, and may be made from either steel or wood. They were commonly used in anti-gas shelters in order to make an opening gas tight, such as a window, or any other opening [Source: GL39, 111; GL40, 22ff; GL40, 26]. A benign interpretation is possible, therefore it is not a criminal trace.

Further on this point, Pressac [ATO, 425ff] provides several photographs of shutters, which are identified as the gassdichten Fenster (or Türen) of Crematoria IV and V. These shutters are generally identical in size, shape, and construction to ordinary wooden Blenden as can readily be seen by consulting the literature cited above, and they are also of the right size for emergency exits. Thus gassdichten Fenster (or Türen ), Blenden and Holzblenden, and wooden shutters are all the same thing. This is important not only because it demonstrates the propensity of the Birkenau construction workers and engineers to describe things by unconventional names, but also because it helps put Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung in context.

Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung is a neologism, and we cannot offer a definitive explanation. Pressac speculates that it represents a wire mesh device whereby Zyklon B was "induced" into the extermination gas chamber, but there is no material corroboration for this. We offer the following observations to support our inference:

1) At least two advertisements depict wire mesh screens in the anti-gas shelter literature, one depicts a screen behind an open shutter. [Source: BL42, v]

2) The anti-gas shelter literature contains an advertisement for wire mesh [Drahtnetz]. [Source: BL42, v]

3) According to the anti-gas shelter literature, all windows and other openings require some kind of mesh, netting, grating or grille [Rost, Gitterstäbe, Geflecht von Draht]. [Source: LB 182, 183; GL40 26; BL40, 263]

4) The Auschwitz work order Nr. 353 dated April 27, 1943 [ATO, 441] contains an order for "12 stücke Fenstergitter 50 x 70 cm" which is accepted as a reference to wire mesh screens or grilles for the 12 gassdichten Fenster (or Türen), noted above as identical to Blenden and Holzblenden.

5) Therefore, we can propose that the Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung bear a relationship to the Holzblenden similar to the relationship of the Fenstergitter to the gassdichten Fenster (or Türen ) of Crematoria IV and V.

6) In addition, the literature specifies that such openings must be available for emergency egress. Hence, we hypothesize that these inserts must be removable. [Source: S 5, LDB 174ff, 182, 183]

7) There are several references in the anti-gas shelter literature to "Schieber" which serve the function of something that slides in and blocks, filters, or mediates a space (Absperrschieber, Rosettenschieber, Aufbläseschieber). All of these characterize a "Schieber" as something that is slid into something else, none of them describe a device that is slid into something else so that something else can be slid into it. [Source: advertisement, BL42, V] Therefore, we conclude that the characterization of Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung as a "wire mesh induction device" is semantically incorrect.

8 Finally, the Auschwitz work order Nr. 78 dated March 11, 1943 [ATO, 440] contains an order in Polish "na wykonanie zaslon i kontowek dla krematorium II /BW 30/ z tresci ktorego wynika, ze dla wykonania tego samowienia zuzyto gaze druciana i druciana plecionke." which can be translated as "for the manufacture of screens with scantlings [or screens with edges] for Crematorium II /BW 30/ the gist of which is [z tresci ktorego wynika] that wire gauze and wire mesh are to be used to meet the order."

The above order is in Polish because the original order is not available. According to Pressac, (ATO 438), someone at the Auschwitz Museum borrowed the document for home study and didn't return it. This is the only document missing, hence Pressac had to rely on a Polish language abstract prepared for the Höß trial and notarized by Jan Sehn. However, it seems clear that the order is significant in defining the nature of the Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung. The reference to screens is not a reference to induction devices, and indeed, they sound like the screens for emergency exits discussed earlier [LBD 174-177]. If our rendering of the admittedly vague Polish is incorrect, it would be helpful if the document was returned to the Museum where it belongs.

Our hypothesis, then, is that the Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung were simply removable wire mesh screens that were placed into openings that the Holzblenden were designed to cover. The corroboration for this inference derives from the points from the literature noted above. A benign interpretation is possible, therefore it is not a criminal trace.

Finally, it should be noted that Pressac himself has observed that the roof of Morgue #1 of Crematorium II (for which these 4 pairs were designated) shows only two holes in its largely collapsed but still intact roof (ATO, 436). Therefore, in whatever manner these 4 pairs of Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung and Holzblenden were meant to be used, they could not all have been used exclusively in the roof of Morgue #1 of Crematorium II. This fact weakens Pressac's interpretation concerning their construction and intent.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:03 pm)

Isn't the true meaning of "Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung" easy to work out if one speaks German. It would be interesting to hear Claudia's take on it.
The different language in relation to the similar parts for the other Krema block gave me doubts.

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:25 pm)

"Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung" = "wire net sliding device"

I discussed this with a relative who is a heating and ventilating technician in Germany.

The airducts in the morgues need openings toward the morgue in order to blow in and suck out air (ducts alone will not do it). These openings are covered with a "wire net" similar to theUS air heating systems, mostly to keep vermin out.

In case of Auschwitz these wire net frames were removable for cleaning purposes.

The openings can be regulated with a "Blende" (louvered cover), same as the US louvered heating air outlets in my living room.

Alles klar?

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:47 pm)

The airducts in the morgues need openings toward the morgue in order to blow in and suck out air (ducts alone will not do it).


I wasn't quite sure what you meant by this. But good info.

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:53 pm)

Hi,

I am not sure what I was "wrong" about, but, whatever. It is clear when one reads the usual package that they are talking about "crystals" or "mothballs" that will "sublimate" into gas, and therefore, disappear, making any cleanup unnecessary.

Yes, of course, they also suggested that it would "quickly" sublimate so that it would all be done in five to ten minutes. Let's just call them Super Mothballs. Or maybe they were thinking about how, if I put chlorine into the toilet and then don't like the results, so I put in Ty-D Bowl (or whatever), I get chlorine gas. Or maybe they were thinking of Drano. Not the liquid, the original crystals. Did they have Drano in World War Two?

I take the point about the actual process of sublimation, which simply stretches out the out-gas times. I don't know much about graphs, but I think that's what the graphs show.

About the Drahtnetz things, I think the excerpt posted covered the bases, and so did the note from the heating tech in Germany. I never knew that. The point is the same for both, which is that the Drahtnetz thing is just a sliding screen, not a Rube Goldberg contraption for dispersing Zyklon crystals equidistantly in three dimensions to speed up the sublimation of the crystals.

The other thing, about the Blende, I think the excerpts have got that cold, either they are bomb shelter shutters or heating louvers. Since I just saw -- Irving has a note on that -- that the gastight doors were bomb shelter doors, I guess that's the explanation, but maybe not. Or, maybe they were bomb shelter doors that they used for something else. Not to gas a million people.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:35 am)

I think for many years the stumbling block about Zyklon is that everyone assumed it acted like mothballs, which are strong pinesol smelling little white balls that evaporate over the course of days or weeks in a closet. Even Dr Butz in his book seemed to think that Zyklon acted this way, because that's what he got from Hilberg.



I meant that the image of slow gassing mothballs was not what was being told in gas chamber tales. The classic image was of fast outgassing clouds of cyanide like an execution gas chamber.

Are you saying Zyklon left the carrier material behind after the cyanide gassed out?


If you look at the graph and allow for the 15 degrees celcius line (59 degrees fahrenheit) the HCN would only have outgassed 5-20% in the 5-15 minute time frame given in gassing accounts.

The blueprint of morgue I at Birkenau shows the ventilation exhaust ducts as being located on the floor level outside of the walls. When morgue I was blasted this recessed area was safe from damage. Therefore there's probably an unwashed area of concrete wall inside the duct that needs to be sampled. If it contains the same trace levels of cyanide as the morgue walls the game is over as far as morgue I being an infamous gas chamber.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:14 am)

Hannover wrote:
Show me the proof that this was done.


why , ive never claimed it was done!!

i said IF you were right that the outgasing of the zyklon was a problem,and you havent show that it is, this could be solved by solving the poison in water.


Wind would blow it across the camp prior to placement in the 'water'.


Yes,windstrength 13 bft hurricane in auschwitz. :lol:

show me the prove that the wind would have blow it acros the camp prior to placement in the so called "water".

What happened to this contaminated water?


Could use it for delousing.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:40 am)

Germania says:
why , ive never claimed it was done!!

i said IF you were right that the outgasing of the zyklon was a problem,and you havent show that it is, this could be solved by solving the poison in water

Huh? Outgassing takes hours, a scientific fact, and their is no evidence that Zyklon was dumped into water. Why do you even raise the absurd issue?

then he says:
Yes,windstrength 13 bft hurricane in auschwitz.

show me the prove that the wind would have blow it acros the camp prior to placement in the so called "water".

Unless Auschwitz is in a vacuum, or subterranean enclosure there would be wind, especially since Auschwitz is flat marsh land. Cyanide gas would easily be blown throughout the labor camp.... if the bizarre 'dumped into water' story was true. :roll:
and:
Could use it for delousing

Tell me how Zyklon-B dumped in water could be used for delousing. Show me evidence that this was done.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:16 pm)

Hi,

You are absolutely right, I didn't mean to suggest a slow-mothball-like out-gas. I only know that when reading about it years ago I just assumed because of phrases like, "the crystals of deadly Zyklon B rapidly sublimated" that they meant there would be no leftovers. Of course, we know that Zyklon, which was basically crushed sheetrock soaked in liquid cyanide, would be leftover, and you were supposed to put it back in the can after out-gassing and then return it for a refill. I don't know if you got a deposit back.

The other argument about taking the Zyklon out, and then, throwing it out, or putting it in water, there's no reason. The argument is nonsense.


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