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Comment on this article NOW! / recorded conversations claims

Postby Tom » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:01 am)

[Thread title edited for clarification. Moderator1]

ALL Revisionists need to comment on this article NOW!

http://news.scotsman.com/international. ... 2385262005


German officers 'knew of Holocaust'

MURDO MACLEOD


HIGH-ranking German officers knew much more about Adolf Hitler's plans to murder millions of Jews than previously thought, according to newly revealed transcripts of conversations between captured generals.

During the Second World War, British intelligence secretly bugged the cells occupied by some of the most senior German army, navy and air force commanders who had been captured by the Allies.

The transcripts have only recently been made available to researchers and show that:

• Senior Luftwaffe officers mused together at the end of 1943 that millions of Jews had already been killed.

• General Dietrich von Choltitz, the German commander who defied Hitler's orders by not allowing Paris to be destroyed, admitted that he had been involved in killing Jews;

• Field Marshal Erwin Rommel had been fully briefed about the 1944 attempt to kill the Nazi leader, and refused to betray the plotters.

The British bugging operation took place in the then country estate of Trent Park on the north-west outskirts of London, in a building now used by the University of Middlesex.

Senior German officers were lulled into a false sense of security by being allowed to live in relative luxury, even sometimes having their adjutants and batmen to attend to them.

However, all the time the British were bugging their cells in an effort to get the Germans to reveal vital military secrets about chains of commands, tactics and who made the decisions in the Nazi war machine.

The transcripts, which have been published in Germany by Sönke Neitzel, professor of modern history at the University of Mainz, contradict the traditional image of senior German officers as having little or no knowledge of the mass-killings.

One of the most dramatic revelations concerns Choltitz, the German general in command of Paris in 1944 as the Allied armies closed in.

He became known as the "Unlikely Saviour of Paris" when he defied a direct order of Hitler who demanded that the city should be destroyed rather than fall to the Allies. He was captured and sent to Trent Park.

Speaking of an earlier episode in the war, Choltitz - who had previously been stationed on the Eastern Front - said: "The gravest task I ever undertook, and I did it at the time strictly, was the liquidation of the Jews."

Another clue to the Holocaust being common knowledge was a conversation involving Luftwaffe general Georg Neuffer, who was captured in North Africa in 1943, in which they discussed later that year how many Jews had been killed. Neuffer said: "It must be three million by now."

The transcripts also point to closer links between Rommel and the plotters who attempted to kill Hitler in 1944. It was previously known that the conspirators asked Rommel whether he would take over if Hitler were no longer alive to run the Nazi state, but never told him of their plans to bomb the Führer.

However, a conversation involving General Heinrich Eberbach, who worked closely with Rommel in 1944, suggests Rommel had been fully told about the plans and kept them to himself.

Neitzel, whose book has been hailed as an important development in studying the war, said: "This is further evidence that knowledge of the atrocities was much more widespread among senior officers than many wanted to admit after the war. They all wanted to say: 'I was just a simple soldier.' This evidence defies that."

Asked why the admissions had not been used to bring more officers to trial for war crimes, he said: "It is clear that the British wanted to protect their sources of information and the fact that they had bugged the conversations. It would have been difficult to use at the trials anyway because it was not precise enough. Having someone say that they 'killed Jews' would not be enough at a trial. If they had given a date and place it could have been linked to witnesses and charges brought."

Dr Christoph Dartmann, a lecturer in European History at Aberdeen University, said: "This is a blow against the sanitised Hollywood image of the German army as a clean army totally removed from the atrocities."

This article: http://news.scotsman.com/international. ... 2385262005

Last updated: 11-Dec-05 01:48 GMT



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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:23 am)

Utter rubbish.
i.e.:
Another clue to the Holocaust being common knowledge was a conversation involving Luftwaffe general Georg Neuffer, who was captured in North Africa in 1943, in which they discussed later that year how many Jews had been killed. Neuffer said: "It must be three million by now."

So, a German Air Force officer in North Africa knew that 3,000,000 Jews had been killed? Laughable.

Notice that we do not see the full text to verify the claims. As I have shown with the so called 'Bruns conversation' and other recorded 'conversations', the claims here are obviously no different.
see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=15
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1311
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=366
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=352

Where is the full, exact text of these 'conversations' claimed in the above article? Produce them and watch Revisionist shred them one by one. This story is generally absurd and indicative of the desperation of the True Believers to further their special interests.

Always wild claims, but never evidence.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:16 am)

Another clue to the Holocaust being common knowledge was a conversation involving Luftwaffe general Georg Neuffer, who was captured in North Africa in 1943, in which they discussed later that year how many Jews had been killed. Neuffer said: "It must be three million by now."


"later that year" - does this mean that the conversation was recorded while Neuffer was a captive of allied forces? And by the way, a conversation with whom?

And also by the way, where is the technical, documentary and forensical proof of the millions exterminated?

Speaking of an earlier episode in the war, Choltitz - who had previously been stationed on the Eastern Front - said: "The gravest task I ever undertook, and I did it at the time strictly, was the liquidation of the Jews."


A transcript of the original conversations in German would be helpful. May we guess that he used 'Ausrottung'? Certainly deporting hundred of thousands of people would be considered a grave task.

If those recordings are such eminent proof that german officers knew about the supposed "Holocaust", shouldn't they take their time to convert those recordings and putting them on the Net for all to listen to?

Asked why the admissions had not been used to bring more officers to trial for war crimes, he said: "It is clear that the British wanted to protect their sources of information and the fact that they had bugged the conversations. It would have been difficult to use at the trials anyway because it was not precise enough. Having someone say that they 'killed Jews' would not be enough at a trial. If they had given a date and place it could have been linked to witnesses and charges brought."


As if not a lot more worthless material was summoned up at the IMT trials as "proof"...

And how convenient that this kind of stuff turns up 60 years after the war. I fear this is only the beginning of desperate measures from the holohoaxers. Most likely, we will see much more elaborate stuff aimed at convincing the uncritical mass. As the myth finally start to crumble, will perhaps "genuine" film footage of gassings or mass shootings turn up after "gathering dust" in American, British, Israeli or former Soviet archives? (I think it was actually stated somewhere that such footage was claimed to exist in the Yad Vashem Archives...) Surely they have the money to carry out such operations... :(

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:46 am)

Hannover wrote:Where is the full, exact text of these 'conversations' claimed in the above article? Produce them and watch Revisionist shred them one by one.

Image
publisher info in German

The publisher is trying to hype this book with transcripts a bit of course, but the fact that the German army massacred Jews in the East together with the Einsatzgruppen is nothing new. Colchitz was in Sevastopol, and it is no surprise that he admitted to crimes against humanity there. But of course the book is useful to dispel this German "Wir haben es nicht gewußt"-excuse.

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:07 am)

This is the book, the article is about:
http://www.perlentaucher.de/buch/22299.html
Image

This is the comment of one of the reviewers:

"Grundlegend neue Erkenntnisse" sind diesen Abhörprotokollen zwar nicht zu entnehmen, räumt der Rezensent ein. Doch vermitteln die Protokolle einen "aufschlussreichen" Einblick in die "Mentalität" der Wehrmachtführung, so Wette anerkennend."


(We can not take any fundamental new cognitions from these protocols, the reviewer writes, but they allow an interesting insight into the mentality of the Wehrmacht command).
"Everything has already been said, but not yet by everyone." - Karl Valentin

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:57 am)

Vallon said:
The publisher is trying to hype this book with transcripts a bit of course, but the fact that the German army massacred Jews in the East together with the Einsatzgruppen is nothing new. Colchitz was in Sevastopol, and it is no surprise that he admitted to crimes against humanity there. But of course the book is useful to dispel this German "Wir haben es nicht gewußt"-excuse.

What massacres? Where are the mass graves excavations and studies? Where is the physical evidence that would necessarily exist? You have nothing to base your claims on Vallon.

The book mentioned in this thread is useless untill we see the alleged, verbatim text. And, I can guarantee that the original tapes are curiously unavailable to the public.

The mere fact that these recordings were not used as evidence in a trial of these men speaks volumes. That's quite revealing when we consider how absurd the 'evidence' at Nuremberg was and the torture tactics used. These recordings seem like another Revisionist bonanza, when and IF we ever get to read/hear them.

Laurentz Dahl said:
A transcript of the original conversations in German would be helpful. May we guess that he used 'Ausrottung'? Certainly deporting hundred of thousands of people would be considered a grave task.

Exactly. When it comes to the absurd 'holocaust' claims, they have to desperately resort to the claim of 'code words' where real/actually used words & statements say nothing to support their positions. I'll bet the farm that we'll see 'deportations', 'evacuations, 'resettlement', etc. being desperately claimed to mean 'extermination' etc. Oh how pathetic the entire matter is.

As I previously mentioned, see examples of other 'conversations' debunked here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=15
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1311
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=366
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=352

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:15 pm)

Vallon:
But of course the book is useful to dispel this German "Wir haben es nicht gewußt"-excuse.


What do you mean Vallon? Do you mean that all or most of the german
armed forces personell or perhaps even the civillians knew of the
inexistent Jewish Holocaust? They were all "Hitlers' willing executioners"
in your opinion, right?

Let me suggest you diversify your readings a little bit.
Try out "Die verleumdete Armee. Wehrmacht und Anti-Wehrmacht-Propaganda" by Walter Post.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm)

grenadier wrote:

What do you mean Vallon? Do you mean that all or most of the german
armed forces personell or perhaps even the civillians knew of the
inexistent Jewish Holocaust? They were all "Hitlers' willing executioners"
in your opinion, right?


It is the usual Holocaust paradox - one that would bewilder even Wilde!:

On one hand, the Nazis tried to hide every aspect of the Holocaust with code language, camouflage, misleading of Red Cross personel, destruction of documentary and physical evidence in the end of the war etc. etc. ad nauseam.

On the other hand, every german soldier from the highest general to the tiniest HJ Knabe, as well as the Poles, the Ukrainians, the Vatican and the Allied intelligence services knew about the supposed extermination!!! :shock:

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:52 pm)

Right on, Dahl. They can't have it both ways. Either it was widely known and not a secret undertaking, or it was a very elaborate scheme, so secret that not even the Jews themselves knew of it -- hence the sneaky allegations that the Germans "lured" their victims into the alleged "gas chamber", and "gas" came out of the shower heads! Or...."wire-mesh devices" was lowered down into the cold room, filled with fumigation pellets... :roll:

They want it to be secret, they want the gas to come from shower heads, from wire-mesh devices, from diesel motors, pellets thrown in from a window which would cause the pellets to land on a very cold floor, and all sorts of other stupid stories.

-haldan
<?php if ($Holocaust == false ) {deny_repeatedly(); } else { investigate(); } ?>
Homage to Catalin Haldan

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:25 pm)

It is a bit unclear when these conversations took place but I assume that they were after the end of the war. By that time the stories about German atrocities had been spread far and wide and had been heard by German prisoners as well as the public. As at Nuremburg, prisoners who had no knowledge of any of the atrocities sometimes accepted that they in fact may have happened. This may well have been the case here. Of course I do not know, but as has been pointed out an examination of the exact transcripts would give a clue. Without that information this is just more fluff and given the source, suspicious.

Then too, assuming that some killings were discussed it is critical to know exactly what they were. Shootings of partisans in Russia? Hardly a war crime.

And then one can speculate about the war going the other way and eavesdropping on the allied planners of the bombing attacks on German cities such as Dresden deliberately aimed at killing civilians. A real crime for which we still await an indictment.

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:02 pm)

Hannover wrote:What massacres? Where are the mass graves excavations and studies? Where is the physical evidence that would necessarily exist? You have nothing to base your claims on Vallon.
At the end of 1942, Himmler reported to Hitler that 363000 Jews had been killed in southern Russia, Ukrain and Bialystok:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Meldung291242.html

There are many letters from soldiers on the Eastern front who cite with approval Hitler's words about exterminating the Jews. In the book Frontsoldaten: The German Soldier in World War II by Stephen Fritz there is a letter by one Herbert Selle who describes execution-entertainment in Zhitomir in August 1941, where soldiers were sitting on rooftops to watch the show:
One day a Wehrmacht vehicle drove through Zhitomir with a mehaphone. Over the loudspeaker we were informed that at a certain time that day Jews would be shot in the market place. ... On arriving there I saw that 50 to 60 Jews had assembled (men, women, and children). ... There were also, of course, members of the Wehrmacht among the onlookers. ... Finally, all of the Jews assembled there were loaded on a truck. ... Then an announcement came over the loudspeaker that we should all follow the lorry to the shooting. ...

There was a ditch filled with water. SS men stood at either side of this ditch. One by one the Jews had to jump over the ditch. Those who fell in the ditch were beaten with various types of blunt instruments by the SS men and driven or pulled out of the ditch. ...

About thirty meters behind the ditch I saw a stack of logs. This wooden wall was used as a bullet butt. ... There must have been five or six people lined up each time. They then received a shot in the neck from the carbines. Row upon row were shot in the same way. The dead were dragged away from the logs immediately. ... I stood about 20 meters away from the ditch and about fifty meters away from the wood-stack.
(quoted in Klee et al, Good Old Days)

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:18 pm)

Vallon posts:
At the end of 1942, Himmler reported to Hitler that 363000 Jews had been killed in southern Russia, Ukrain and Bialystok:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Meldung291242.html

Right. And see that silly fake demolished here:
'fake Einsatzgruppen document'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=68
I suggest you post to that thread to continue your assertions about it.

Vallon then cites claims about an alleged letter which cannot be shown to be factual, there is no original ever shown, only claims about such a letter from a truly laughable book, 'The Good Old Days', another Revisionist bonanza.

Vallon claims:
There are many letters from soldiers on the Eastern front who cite with approval Hitler's words about exterminating the Jews.

Yet Vallon shows none. Just saying so doesn't make it so. Where are the original letters for us to see and verify? Nowhere.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:43 pm)

Vallon wrote:
In the book Frontsoldaten: The German Soldier in World War II by Stephen Fritz there is a letter by one Herbert Selle who describes execution-entertainment in Zhitomir in August 1941[...]


The problem with this book,"Frontsoldaten", is that the accuracy of
the first-hand accounts themselves is doubtful. For instance, it uses
Guy Sajers' "The forgotten soldier" a lot and there is considerable doubt
to the authenticity of it. mind you, it is a good read but it seems to
belong to the fiction category.

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Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:13 pm)

So I looked to find what I could on Luftwaffe General Georg Neuffer.

Found out he was commander of the 20th Flak Division, shipped to Afrika in January of 1943. Along with the rest of the Afrika Korps, he was captured on May 12, 1943. He was awarded the Knight's Cross on August 8, 1943, while in captivity.

And to be certain he was at Lamb's House, where they did these recordings, though it's interesting that the source I found on this was actually asking for the documentation. It knew he was there, but other than that couldn't find any records on him.

But anyway, this brings up a curious point about General Neuffer as a witness to "3,000,000" Jewish dead. In January of 1943, when he was shipped to Africa - and of course, he would have spent December of 1942 getting ready to be shipped - well, at that time, the Krema's at Birkenau were still under construction, so he couldn't have been referring to that.

The four Operation Reinhardt camps - Sobibor, Chelmno, Treblinka and Belzec - were supposedly having their most intense period of operations in the summer of 1942, but as a Luftwaffe general, he would have known nothing of that, heck, Hans Frank, Governor-General of Poland, couldn't find out what was going on there.

So Neuffer couldn't have been talking about any of the "extermination" camps. According to the standard story, Birkenau wasn't in operation yet, Auschwitz was a sometimes thing, and he was out of the loop for the Reinhardt camps.

I can't find out whether or not Neuffer was assigned to the Eastern Front in 1941 or 1942. It's possible that he was, in which case, he's talking about the actions of the Einstatzgruppen.

Being an anti-aircraft commander, he would have been assigned to airfields, supply dumps and transport junctions, which means he would have been in a position to see people being transported, but there's no way he could have witnessed 3,000,000 Jews being killed.

If it's asserted he heard a report about it - why would a Luftwaffe general, and a flak commander at that, get such a report?

To top it off, nobody has ever claimed that the Einstatzgruppen killed 3,000,000 Jews, and nobody has claimed that 3,000,000 had been killed by December of 1942 - the last time Neuffer would have had access to inside knowledge of events in Europe.

To be a credible witness, you have to be in a position to know what happened. Neuffer would not have had access to any exterminations, and to repeat a salient point, nobody has claimed that 3,000,000 Jews were exterminated by the end of 1942.

I'd like to see the full transcript of that conversation. At best, Neuffer was repeating a wild rumor that he heard, OR - repeating some leading information given to him by his interrogators?

On the other hand, General Dietrich von Choltitz commanded an infantry corps during the siege of Sevastopol, and the 48th Panzer Corps during the Battle of Kursk. Sevastopol was a drawn out, bloody battle, and the Crimea did have a resident Jewish population, so von Choltitz, unlike Neuffer, does have some credibility. But - especially with this oral confession on tape (actually, on wax record) - why wasn't he prosecuted?
Last edited by PLAYWRIGHT on Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:53 pm)

PLAYWRIGHT wrote:Nobody has claimed that 3,000,000 had been killed by December of 1942 - the last time Neuffer would have had access to inside knowledge of events in Europe.

To be a credible witness, you have to be in a position to know what happened. Neuffer would not have had access to any exterminations, and to repeat a salient point, nobody has claimed that 3,000,000 Jews were exterminated by the end of 1942.

You are wrong.
Here are the numbers of victims by year, according to Hilberg;
http://holocaust-info.dk/statistics/hillberg_year.htm
I'd like to see the full transcript of that conversation.

The transcripts are in the book. You should get it.


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