"Official" Majdanek's figure might be changed soon

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Maly Jacek
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"Official" Majdanek's figure might be changed soon

Postby Maly Jacek » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:35 pm)

It is not official but it looks like Poles are about to lower "official number of Majdanek's victims" from 231.000 to 78.000 as result of archive's research carried out by Polish historian Tomasz Kranz.

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,8311,wid,81 ... icaid=1c8c

http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/kraj/1,34317,3081342.html

{Sorry Polish only}

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:05 pm)

Maly Jacek wrote:[...] looks like Poles are about to lower "official number of Majdanek's victims" from 231.000 to 78.000 [...]


According to my 1986 Encyclopaedia Britannica it's "200.000 to 1.500.000" for Majdanek, no less. Just to be on the safe side, I guess. In other words: anything goes and the 6 million stays...

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:08 pm)

Gee, I wonder if perhaps Mr Kranz perhaps has read this book? :roll:

Oh, and let me guess - the old victim estimates included approx. 50 000 jews among the supposed 230 000 victims, but the number of supposed jewish victims will remain 50 000 even with the new estimate.... :wink:

Btw, a translation (at least of some crucial parts) of the articles would be very much appreciated (since Bablefish &c simply suck at translating Polish).

I suppose that Kranz doesn't contest the claim of homicidal gassings (or he would most likely be in court by now) - even if that would mean that he has to ignore virtually all the tens of thousands of inmates dead due to typhus epidemics and other natural causes. Anything about the "Erntefest" (the claimed "Operation Harvest Festival" when a supposed 10-18 000 Majdanek inmates where massacred by means of shooting)? Does Kranz claim "limited gassings" in order to make the gassings claim fit with the new figures?
Last edited by Laurentz Dahl on Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:13 pm)

Anything like that is a good thing.

But, it wouldn't be the first time the numbers were lowered or just stated as something less than original figures.

The very original figure would have been by way of one of those Soviet-Polish Extraordinary Commission on the Crimes of the Hitlerites at ....

That figure, even published in a British newspaper was 1.5 million.

Looking around we could find some numbers as 1,000,000 to 850,000.

Lately it could be something like 85,000 with the Simon Wiesenthal Center saying it was more like 300,000.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:51 pm)

Laurentz Dahl wrote:Oh, and let me guess [...] the number of supposed jewish victims will remain 50 000 even with the new estimate.... :wink:


Yes, it's an interesting "method" of selective revisionism: whatever is revised, the Jewish figure stays put. Take the following reader's letter published in the September 2005 issue of the National Geographic Magazine:

Reader's letter to the NGM:

According to the essay on Zyklon B [May 2005], the poison was used to kill more than one million people at Auschwitz. When Pope John Paul II visited this site in the 1980s, he blessed memorials that indicated that four million people were murdered there. How did National Geographic obtain this lower number?

John F. McKeown
Canandaigua, New York


Then comes the reply from the editors, a little masterpiece of subtlety:

The Magazine replies:

After the fall of the Polish communist government in 1989, the truth about the number of people killed at Auschwitz was revealed. The communist government had inflated the number of non-Jewish Poles who were killed at the camp. Holocaust historians now agree that between 1.1 and 1.5 million people were killed at Auschwitz, most of them Jews.


Presto! Everything changes but the number of Jewish victims stays the same...

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:08 pm)

In their book on Majdanek Graf and Mattogno shows that approximately 42 200 Majdanek inmates died from typhus etc (including some executions) (p.71-79). Even ignoring the months for which no Sterbebücher remains but where death tolls can be estimated with good certainty with the help of other documents, Kranz has at least 20 000 deaths from natural causes to subtract from his new 78 000 figure. But that would be quite absurd (i.e. presuming 0 natural deaths for months unaccounted for), so lets assume Kranz goes for 30 000 natural deaths. Depending on whether he goes for the high or the low estimate of the claimed Erntefest massacre, he will have 30 000 to 38 000 deaths assigned to the gas chambers. If he goes with the same approximate for natural deaths as Graf and Mattogno, only 20 000 to 28 000.

Surely those supposed 7 (seven!) gas chambers of Majdanek were not put to much use...

Not much remaining of those mass gassings claimed by Soviet and Polish authorities and commitees.

Let me guess another thing - Kranz' research most likely does not contain any evalution of witness testimonies, or any technical/forensic studies of the claimed "gas chambers". Most likely it's all superficial and biased extrapolations of documents regarding transports and evacuations.

The good thing that may come out of this is that more polish historians may start looking into the claimed victim numbers of Majdanek and other camps and maybe find and publish - a la Pressac - documents from archives closed to revisionists.

PS. The reduction from 231 000 to 78 000 means that only 34% of the former number remains. A similar reduction of the current claimed victim numbers for the Operation Reinhard camps (including Chelmno) would mean a reduction of 1 250000 victims (but surely the sacred 6 million figure would withstand even such a reduction - through some cabbalistic miracle)...

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:29 pm)

Using this online translator: http://www.poltran.com/ and some common sense regarding syntax, I think I have managed to glean the following from the second, longer article linked to above:

- According to Kranz, who is the head of research at the Majdanek Museum (?), 78 000 people died in Majdanek. Of those, 59 000 were jews and 19 000 non-jews (mainly poles and belorussians).

- the originator of the former victim figure of 235 000, former Majdanek Museum researcher Czeslav Rajc, said that he did not have access to all documentary sources when setting the figure of 235 000, and that the ones available gave fragmentary information.

- Kranz' report with the new victim numbers (?) has been discussed by a special assembly without any reservations being voiced (?)

- It has been pointed out that the total number of Majdanek inmates (?) is unknown and that new documents may come to light which can change the victim number given by Kranz. The number has been estimated with precaution (?).

- The director/head of the museum has informed the guides about the new number of victims.

- "It is necessary to remember that the reduction of victims do not diminish the pain and suffering of the people murdered in Majdanek"

- The article has a summary of the history of the camp and says that on the 3rd of November 1943, 18 000 jews were shot to death during the so-called Erntefest. "In order to the silence the shots and the cries of the victims, music was played from two cars". At Majdanek, it further claims, people were gassed using Zyklon B or carbon monoxide in three (3) gas chambers. Many people were also bludgeoned to death with iron hammers (?). There were also mass deaths from hunger, wycieńczenia(?) and diseases.

- The article also mentions the reduction of Auschwitz victims from 4 000 000 to 1 500 000 and quotes Franciszek Piper.

Comments: a very interesting thing is that Kranz ups Raul Hilbergs estimate of jewish Majdanek victims. Hilberg has 50 000 jewish victims, while Kranz claims 59 000! Which in turn means that Kranz has revised the number of non-jewish victims down from 172 000 to 19 000 - only 11% of the non-jewish victims remain, while the number of jewish victims has not been reduced even one iota, just as I predicted! :o

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:40 pm)

For cut-to-the-chase info. on Majdanek and other alleged 'Nazi gas chambers' see:

David Cole's FORTY-SIX IMPORTANT UNANSWERED QUESTIONS REGARDING THE NAZI 'GAS CHAMBERS ':
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=599

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:33 am)

I just sent the following e-mail to Tomasz Kranz:

To Mr. Tomas Kranz
Head of the Scientific Department
Majdanek State Museum

News about the possible reduction of the victim toll for Concentration Camp Majdanek has been recently published in Polish newspapers. However, since my knowledge of polish unfortuneatly is very scant, and no reports of Your recent research regarding the number of victims of Majdanek seem yet to have been published in english or german, I would like to ask You a few simple questions.

1) In Your new estimate of 78 000 victims (whereof 59 000 jews and 19 000 non-jews), how many victims do You assign to the so-called Erntefest massacre? Does the figure of 17 000 victims stand unchanged?

2) Of the originally (by the Soviet Commission) claimed 7 gas chambers usually labeled gas chambers I-VII, four has been discarded as homicidal gas chambers. In which three of the originally claimed gas chambers did the homicidal gassings take place? In gas chambers I-III?

3) Is Your new estimate based only on analysis of documents, or has any technical and/or forensical studies been carried out in order to reach it?

4) In what archive was the new documentary evidence found (that was not available when the earlier victim estimate of 231 000 was set)?

5) How many do You estimate the number of inmate deaths due to typhus, other diseases and malnutrition to be?

6) How many do You estimate the victims of homicidal gassings to be?

Thank You in advance for answering the above questions!

best regards,

Laurentz Dahl


The home page for the State Museum of Majdanek:

http://www.majdanek.pl

Contact information for Kranz et al may be found here:

http://www.majdanek.pl/en/kontakt.htm

For a thorough and critical examination of the claimed gas chambers at Majdanek, click here. The "Operation Harvest Festival" claims are analysed and debunked here.
Last edited by Laurentz Dahl on Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:26 am)

If one may be permitted some more speculation:

Revisionists Graf and Mattogno estimates 42 000 Majdanek victims, whereof approximately half were jews. Kranz estimates the jews that died in Majdanek to be 59 000. If this new estimate also crumbles and the gassing claims for Majdanek are dropped (or 99% dropped as it would more likely be), the difference would be 39 000 or so less dead jews at Majdanek. It would not mean much of a reduction of the sacred 6 million number, and anyway those 39 000 "disappeared" jewish victims would simply be allocated to some other claimed extermination camp, such as Treblinka or Sobibor, or to ever-increasing number of victims claimed for the Einsatzgruppen (more about that below).

However, this new reduction of Majdanek victims will have the effect that more people start doubting the official story. Some people at least might find it curious that the claimed number of jewish victims has not dwindled at all since the last estimate.

It might also, as I wrote in a previous posting, lead to a more critical - if cautious - approach among some polish historians towards the currently claimed victim numbers of Majdanek and other camps. Never before seen documents that contradicts the gassings claims might come to light, by mistake or "mistake" of the historians.

I mentioned in a previous posting what a reduction of claimed victim numbers for the Operation Reinhard camps on the scale of the recent Majdanek victim reduction would mean. However, such revisions from established historian are not likely to happen in the near future, due to the almost complete lack of documents regarding these camps. Rather more likely in my opinion is a reduction of the official victim figure claimed for Auschwitz, perhaps gradually down to 500 000 or so, perhaps only by a few hundred thousands. That Auschwitz is the most infamous of the "extermination camps" might be a hinder to such reductions, but on the other hand a lowering of the Auschwitz Figure could be seen as a tactical withdrawal.

If such revisions are done that affects the claimed jewish victim toll of the camps Auschwitz and Majdanek, the number of victims "cut" from these camps will simply be allocated to somewhere else, most likely to either the Reinhard camps or to the Einsatzgruppen victims. The importance to the Holocaust story of Auschwitz might be gradually thrown into the memory hole, while Treblinka or Belzec starts being hyped in the media all the time instead of Auschwitz.

However, when in the future establishment historians feel the (tactical) need to decrease the number of victims for the Reinhard camps, they will have no choice but to allocate the cut victim numbers to the victims claimed for the Einsatzgruppe. Let's suppose that in the year 20xx it will be claimed by official sources that only 1-2 million jews were murdered in the "extermination camps" while 4-5 million jews were killed in mass shootings. How in the world could they explain an Einsatzgruppe victim underestimate of several millions (though I guess they could "find" some new Ereignismeldungen mentioning higher victim numbers than before)? When the bulk of the 6 million has ben allocated to the Einsatzgruppen, the holohoaxsters will have no place to go next, they will have painted themselves into a corner. By then, the 6 million figure would be more or less untenable.

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Postby gasto » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:52 am)

the 6 million figure has been used since Nuremberg, and has not changed since then, even after Auschwitz death toll was reduced by a 37%..

In my opinion, its all the gassing claims that should be dropped...no gassings means no 800,000 deaths at Treblinka, no 1,000,000 deaths at Auschwitz, and many "no deaths" in other camps...
If Human Soap rumour was fake, why can´t all the other absurd claims be too??

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:58 am)

Don't hold your breath expecting the magic six million figure to be reduced any time soon. I appears regularly in the great New York Times even though some Holocaust "historians" themselves have discreetly reduced it from time to time.

Certainly when the famous four million victims at Auschwitz which we had been told were "mostly Jews" was reduced initially and officially to 1.5 million one might have expected at least some acknowledgement. A revisionist friend called the Miami Holocaust Museum to enquire. They hung up the telephone on his call when they heard his question. So it goes. Some things are sacred.

It is like a great balloon. When you squeeze one side it pops out on the other side. No need to explain why. They'll think of something. Right now it's pumping shootings in Russia.

As for Majdanek, let's see what the official historian comes up with. Will he admit the lack of proof of homicidal gas chambers as he should? Will he even acknowledge Mattogno and Graf's great work?

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:06 pm)

Radar wrote:Will he admit the lack of proof of homicidal gas chambers as he should? Will he even acknowledge Mattogno and Graf's great work?


Unless he greatly overestimates the numbers of deaths due to natural causes and/or greatly inflates the supposed victim figure of the "Erntefest" Kranz will have at least 18 000 claimed deaths assigned to the "gas chambers" i.e. he is not very likely - at least at this point in time - to admit the (obvious) lack of proof.

As for Kranz acknowledging the work of the dynamic duo Mattogno and Graf (which he most likely has read thoroughly)... not very likely. :roll:

gasto wrote:the 6 million figure has been used since Nuremberg, and has not changed since then, even after Auschwitz death toll was reduced by a 37%...


IIRC, the exterminationists claim that the lowering of the official figure from 4 million to 1 500 000 only pertained to claimed victim numbers for non-jewish Auschwitz inmates i.e. they say that there never was more than 1 million or so jewish deaths claimed for Auschwitz.

Pretty often you read in articles and books that the Holocaust claimed the lives of 6 million jews and 5 million non-jews (mainly poles and gypsies). AFAIK, those figures have been touted pretty much since the end of the war. Since around 1990 however, it has been claimed that only approx. 10% of the people supposedly murdered at Auschwitz were non-jews. As good as 100% of the victims currently claimed for Treblinka (800 000), Belzec (600 000), Sobibor (200 000) and Chelmno (300 000) are jewish. The "auxilary extermination camp" Majdanek has until just recently been the exception: a camp where only 20-25% of the supposed victims are said to have been jewish. With the new official victim estimate, the claimed jewish victims are in clear majority also in Majdanek. In other words: further large (10% or larger) reductions of the official victim figures for the "extermination camps" would necessarily also reduce the 6 million figure - unless more jewish victims were "allocated" to the Einsatzgruppe shootings.

The current claimed jewish deaths in the six camps designated as "extermination camps" sums up to approximately 3 million. The nowadays usually claimed number of jews killed by the Einsatzgruppen is 2 million - however there is much dispute among exterminationists regarding this figure. Hilberg for example claims 1.3 million victims. There has also been claims of a higher victim figure than 2 million. One should also note that some exterminationists claim that less than 6 million jews were killed (Hilberg has 5.1 million).

gasto wrote:In my opinion, its all the gassing claims that should be dropped...no gassings means no 800,000 deaths at Treblinka, no 1,000,000 deaths at Auschwitz, and many "no deaths" in other camps...


Perhaps they will be dropped - or at least partially ("limited gassings") - when establishment historians find them to be untenable because of a growing onslaught of revisionist criticism based on irrefutable arguments. The Holocaust Myth will then mutate (in order to preserve itself) into a new version, wherein homicidal gassings are deemed to have only been "really epiphenomenal to the German's slaughter of Jews" (as the infamous racist germanophobe Daniel Goldhagen put it) and the vast majority of the unchanging 6 million figure are said to have been shot to death. But that would of course only stall the eventual collapse of the 6 million figure and in fact the whole Holocaust myth, since there would be not one shred of evidence for the killings of such huge numbers of jews by shooting - no mass graves, no documents, not even witness testimonies.

If the Holocaust myth continues without the gas chambers, the task of the revisionists must be to focus on the claimed shootings and to make people aware that there is no evidence for shootings on such a scale. As I stated above, the exterminationists have no way to turn if/when only the Einsatzgruppen remains as the Holocaust murder weapon.

However, if not everyone has been totally brainwashed, *lots* of people - including scholars - would have noticed by then that something is very wrong regarding the Holocaust story. The only way for the holohoaxers to completely change the Holocaust story without raising massive suspicion would be to phase out the gas chambers very gradually. But of course I may be too gullible - perhaps most people would not react at all if they were told one day that 3 million jews were gassed, and the next day, that they were not gassed but instead shot on other locations...

To further delay the downfall of the myth, repressive laws have been employed in many countries. The revisionists are few and repressed, but the exterminationist scholars are already beleaguered. It's just a question of time, a period of time that the diligent work of revisionists might shorten quiet a deal.

PS. Perhaps it would be good if some native german speaker here e-mailed the same or similar questions to Kranz (my own german is a bit rusty, which is why I wrote in english). From my own experience with poles I have gathered that quiet a lot of poles have a working knowledge of german, while fewer speaks/reads english. Kranz may not be fluent in english, but he is most likely to be fluent in german. I think the best way to receive a reply is to be polite and not come of as a revisionist, at least initially. I will post any reply I receive from Kranz in this thread btw. I would also like to ask any polish speaking person on this board to check for updates in polish online or in journals/periodicals/newspapers. It seems like a lot of Holocaust scholarship published in polish does not see the light of the day in western language publications, and the news of the reduction of the Majdanek victim figure may fall off the radar even for major western journals of history.

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Postby gasto » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:08 pm)

Laurentz Dahl wrote:If the Holocaust myth continues without the gas chambers, the task of the revisionists must be to focus on the claimed shootings and to make people aware that there is no evidence for shootings on such a scale. As I stated above, the exterminationists have no way to turn if/when only the Einsatzgruppen remains as the Holocaust murder weapon.


Indeed

though gas chambers myths were refuted along with Chemistry´s help, which is an exact science, consequently, it leads to unrefutable and undisputable facts..

Einsatzgruppen shootings a more complicated task for revisionists in my opinion..
If Human Soap rumour was fake, why can´t all the other absurd claims be too??

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:40 pm)

Dahl:
Revisionists Graf and Mattogno estimates 42 000 Majdanek victims, whereof approximately half were jews.


In the 1985 ed. of his "Destruction of the...", Hilberg puts the
number of Majdanek victims at 50,000. I would have to check
to see if those were only jewish victims or jews and non-jews.
The "intentionalist" Lucy Dawidowicz puts the number at
1.380.000(jews and non-jews)!!! Ok, it is a relatively outdated
work( 1975 ed.) but still it clearly shows how "reliable" are the
estimates presented to the unsuspecting public.


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