Finkelstein meets Hilberg

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ASMarques
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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:01 am)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:In his video lecture #1 at Yale, starting at minute 30, he talks about a knowledge about the world he once had, a product of studying and professors, and the big crisis he went through when he found out it was all false. He's nebulous about what he's talking about. He doesn't say. I think it's the holocaust.


You're wrong there. He is talking about Zionism, not the "Holocaust" at all. He actually says: "I don't usually make a commitment on intellectual or theoretical topics unless I've studied them fairly closely." Zionism was supposed to be the exception.

But then, whenever he mentions the "Holocaust" in whatever historical, non-financial, "industry" context, he makes it clear that he has never studied the topic at all and knows next to nothing on it, and yet he systematically treats revisionists as spiteful loonies. This would be flagrant intellectual dishonesty in anyone not grandstanding in the so-called superior moral ways he always adopts. In him, however, it is doubled by what I would call moral shabbiness.

Personally, I believe he knows he is lying when he panders to the audience by saying, for instance, that Irving is "a Nazi." Even if he is not consciously lying -- even if he really believes everything he says about "Holocaust deniers" (the propaganda expression he always uses) -- a person of his self-assumed moral integrity should be more careful with the words.

As someone who has gone to some trouble to get information on what the "revisionists" are saying, I feel every bit as entitled to consider Finkelstein a pious fraud as he feels free to consider Irving "a Nazi".

I have no doubt of his high intelligence and thoroughness, but neither have I of his lack of moral integrity when it comes to reality denial through blind "Holocaust" affirmation, in spite of self-serving, and indeeed acknowledged, nearly total ignorance on the subject. Of course, if it's not really ignorance, then his case seems even worse.
Last edited by ASMarques on Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:48 am)

Mortimer McMuddle wrote:Pressac's photo in the lower right from the Strutthof-Natzweiler camp in Alsace shows a funnel where a quantity of Cyanocil is poured in and a water tap opened a little.

Interesting device! I had never noticed it before.

I do not think the "mixture of chemicals" mentioned in the caption was Cynosil. I am guessing that it might have been calcium cyanide Ca(CN)2 which evolves HCN when exposed to water. Or it could have been potassium cyanide mixed with a solid acid.

Cyanosil is rather similar to Zyklon B. It is HCN adsorbed on a carrier material.

And more on topic: Finkelstein mentions the interview with Hilberg in connection with a program he made. What program was this? Has anybody seen it?

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:44 pm)

Hi ASMarques,

I like what you're saying, and part of me agrees with it,but you can see with his trying to stear things 20 degrees in our direction, he is still blackballed. No one (or close to no one) would even review his book. His Yale talk: there were empty seats. It was in a classroom, not an auditorium.
in spite of self-serving, and indeeed acknowledged, nearly total ignorance on the subject. Of course, if it's not really ignorance, then his case seems even worse.

I would say "if it's not ignorance, then his case seems even better."

He's pointing the way metaphorically and analagously. In the middle ages, people had to probably do the same thing in regard to Catholicism.
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The Joan Peters thing fascinates me. Because you could take Raul Hilberg's book, and do the same thing he did with the Peters book: check the footnotes. He found "fake" footnotes, whereas with Hilberg you'd find his footnotes site books that are obvious frauds. That's the analagous power, but here's the metaphorical power: Peters book was "blurbed" ie recommended by a "who's who" of academia. Finkelstein brings up the concept of authority that is beyond questioning, and how what's behind it is fake. That is what holocaust denial is about.
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What he said about Hilberg was interesting. He really likes Hilberg. Hilberg is different from Finkelstein though. Way different. Hilberg knew it was a fraud and was a big disguiser of that fraud, thinking that it was for the common good of Jews. That's my guess. But when Hilberg saw it being used to extort the Swiss, he put his foot down. Interesting.

You can read in Finkelstein's Holocaust Industry how Elie Wiesel is a giant liar and his book Night is a fraud. Then you can read Hilberg and notice on page 983 that Hilberg uses Night as a source. Hmmm.

Finkelstein is advocating the methodology and mindset needed to discover for oneself that the holocaust is a fraud.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:45 pm)

Mortimer McMuddle wrote:Cyanocil is a cyanide-based pesticide whereby the dust is swept into cracks of buildings or ship holds and humidity causes it to release cyanide slowly and kill pests. It might be confused with Zyklon-B, although it is very different.


Maybe I'm confused, but isn't "Cyanosil" simply the name under which the same product previously marketed as Zyklon B has been sold since the war ended? At least Rudolf states this on page 234 of his Lectures on the Holocaust. I googled on "cyanocil" but with that spelling found only a handful of pages where the name was apparently a misspelling (for example a link at the CW Porter homepage stating the same thing as Rudolf).

Or are Zyklon B and Cyanosil actually different type of products both produced during the war? Is cyanosil a modified form of Zyklon produced first after the war? Is the carrier material the same (gypsum) in Cyanosil as in the Zyklon B manufactured during the war? Are the HCN and carrier proportions the same?

Edit: in the original German edition of the Rudolf Report, Germar Rudolf mentions the following about the development of Zyklon B:

http://www.vho.org/D/rga/verdampf.html

Wir gehen daher nachfolgend davon aus, daß in Auschwitz der Jahre 1942 bis 1944 nicht mehr das in den zwanziger und frühen dreißiger Jahren verwendete Diagrieß-, sondern das zu dieser Zeit bevorzugt verwendete Erco-Produkt eingesetzt wurde[207]. Beim heutigen Produkt, dessen Namen vor einigen Jahren in »Cyanosil®« umgeändert wurde, entfällt ungefähr 60% der Masse des Produktes auf die Trägermasse [208].


And some more, from http://www.vho.org/D/DGG/Gauss41_2.html :

Das Mittel ist auch heute noch erhältlich. Es heißt Cyanosil® und wird von der Detia Freyberg GmbH vertrieben. Von dieser Firma kann man auch die Information erhalten, daß das Produkt bei Temperaturen über 20°C erst nach etwa 2 Stunden 80 bis 90% der Blausäure abgegeben hat. Für spätere Feststellungen ist es hier interessant festzuhalten, daß während der ersten fünf, wahrscheinlich sogar zehn Minuten der Präparatauslegung bei einer Temperatur von etwa 20°C maximal 10% der Blausäure den Trägerstoff verlassen haben. Die Verdampfung der Blausäure erfolgt also recht langsam.


Seems like Cyanosil=Zyklon B. It would be strange if Mr. Rudolf should be mistaken about this. Perhaps there are some smaller differences? Could someone please enlighten us?
Last edited by Laurentz Dahl on Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:04 pm)

Mortimer McMuddle wrote:Pressac's photo in the lower right from the Strutthof-Natzweiler camp in Alsace shows a funnel [...]


Pressac's photo shows simply a funnel with a tap placed on a table. The caption says "The funnel with a tap conserved at La Citadelle de Besançon which was used to supply water to a mixture of chemicals in order to generate prussic acid in the gas chamber at Struthof, asphixiating 86 Jewish victims in August 1943".

That is to say, not a funnel with a tap in any workable settings in the Struthof-Natzweiler camp (near Strasbourg, in Alsace), but a funnel with a tap placed on a table in, according to the caption itself, Besançon (in the Franche-Comté), an altogether different place.

If anyone wishes I may also send in a couple of photos of a funnel with a tap placed on a table, in Lisbon, Portugal, adding the caption "A funnel with a tap conserved in Lisbon, which was used to supply water to a mixture of chemicals in order to generate prussic acid in the gas chamber at Rishon-Le-Zion, asphixiating 86 Azerbaijanis in February 1982".

If you see what I mean.

Note that a funnel with a tap is just what was needed to make Kramer's "spontaneous confession" look more realistic. Alas, a little more than that would be needed. Quick quote from Faurisson:

Quoting Faurisson:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v01/v01p103_Faurisson.html


It gets even better. Several years after the war, before both British and French tribunals, the camp officials of Ravensbrück (Suhren, Schwarzhuber and Treite) repeatedly confessed to the existence of a "gas chamber" in their camp. They even vaguely described its operation. Eventually, those who did not commit suicide were executed because of this alleged "gas chamber." The same "confessions" were given prior to their deaths by Ziereis for Mauthausen (Austria) and by Kramer for Struthof-Natzweiler (Alsace).

Today, one can see the alleged "gas chamber" of Struthof-Natzweiler and in the same place one can also read the unbelievable "confession" of Kramer. This "gas chamber," which is designated as an "historical monument," is a complete fraud. The slightest amount of critical spirit will be sufficient to convince oneself that a gassing in this small room, without any sealing whatsoever, would have been a catastrophe for the executioner as well as for the people in the vicinity. In order to make this "gas chamber" (which is guaranteed to be "in its original condition") believable, someone has gone so far as to clumsily knock a hole into the thin wall with a chisel, and thereby break four tiles. The hole was so arranged that Josef Kramer would have dumped through it the mysterious "salts" (about which he could give no further details and which, when mixed with a little water, killed within one minute!). How could salts and water make such a gas? How could Kramer have prevented the gas from coming back out the hole? How could he see his victims from a hole which would have let him see no more than half the room? How did he ventilate the room before opening the rudimentary door, made from rough-cut lumber? Perhaps one must ask the civil engineering firm in Saint-Michel sur-Meurthe (Vosges), which after the war altered the place which today is presented to visitors "in its original condition"?
Last edited by ASMarques on Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:31 pm)

ASMarques wrote:
Quoting Faurisson:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v01/v01p103_Faurisson.html


The hole was so arranged that Josef Kramer would have dumped through it the mysterious "salts" (about which he could give no further details and which, when mixed with a little water, killed within one minute!). How could salts and water make such a gas?

Calcium cyanide Ca(CN)2 will devolve HCN when water is added to it.

This is also possible with mixtures containing potassium cyanide KCN, which will devolve HCN in acidic solutions.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:43 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Finkelstein is advocating the methodology and mindset needed to discover for oneself that the holocaust is a fraud.


I think his only methodology "Holocaust-wise" is to avoid the historical facts like the plague. According to the "Holocaust Industry", he uses the Holocaust (capitalized) when he means the "ideological representation" (i.e. the money and the "survivor" tall tales) and the nazi holocaust when he means "the real historical event".

The real historical event, he says? What real historical event? The defenestration of Prague? The taking of Orleans? The Chaco War? Of course not. What he means is quite clear from his treatment of "Holocaust denial": he means the purported extermination of the Jews by the Germans resulting in 6 million dead, many of them in the gas chamber industrial slaughterhouses.

Only, in my opinion, he is far too intelligent not to feel that this is a brazen lie. My objection to Finklestein does not concern his silence, but rather his attacks on revisionism from the standpoint of total (real or feigned) ignorance.

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Postby Mortimer McMuddle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:08 pm)

Vallon wrote:
Mortimer McMuddle wrote:Pressac's photo in the lower right from the Strutthof-Natzweiler camp in Alsace shows a funnel where a quantity of Cyanocil is poured in and a water tap opened a little.


Interesting device! I had never noticed it before.

I do not think the "mixture of chemicals" mentioned in the caption was Cynosil. I am guessing that it might have been calcium cyanide Ca(CN)2 which evolves HCN when exposed to water. Or it could have been potassium cyanide mixed with a solid acid.

Cyanosil is rather similar to Zyklon B. It is HCN adsorbed on a carrier material.

You're correct. I mistated the terminology. It is either "Calcid" or "Calcyan."

Another hydrocyanic acid method which has recently been used here and there is the spreading of Calcid, a powdery cyanide of calcium (zyanwasserstoffsäurem Kalzium), which reacts with the moisture in the air and gives off quantities of hydrocyanic acid but which leaves traces behind whose removal is time-consuming. Because of the greater amounts of material which are needed to achieve an effective gas concentration, one must also expect longer fumigating periods (längere Arbeitsbelastung).

http://fpberg.yourforum.org/archive/7.html
"Transportation Hygiene and Disinfestation" (Verkehrshygiene und Schädlingsbekämpfung)
by Dr. Ludwig Gassner, Frankfurt on the Main, translated by F. P. Berg and E. Kniepkamp from:
Gesundheits-Ingenieur, Vol. 66 (1943) Heft 15, pp. 174-76.

:oops:

Laurentz Dahl wrote:Seems like Cyanosil=Zyklon B. It would be strange if Mr. Rudolf should be mistaken about this. Perhaps there are some smaller differences?


I think that is correct. There are also products produced by American Cyanamid Co.
Last edited by Mortimer McMuddle on Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:51 pm)

Vallon wrote:This is also possible with mixtures containing potassium cyanide KCN, which will devolve HCN in acidic solutions.


Thank you, Vallon. You know what my favorite detail is? It's the idea that Kramer, then in command of the Struthof-Natzweiler camp, after getting his little bottle of "salts" from prof. Hirt, would be personally doing everything by himself, with not a single camp doctor or anyone else used to manipulating dangerous chemicals capable of killing dozens of people in half a minute (Kramer dixit) in sight.

According to his several (at least three) mutually contradictory testimonies (*), only four SS men, at most, accompanied him during the gassings at the Struthof-Natzweiler camp. He first got the salts, then he had a whole gas chamber constructed (in that order), then he ministrated the salts himself to the victims through a funnel going through a ridiculously improvised hole in the wall of the gas chamber he had had constructed. The only SS man of the four whose name Kramer remembered, was one Wolfgang Seuss who denied absolutely everything when interrogated after the War, even when confronted with witness Paul Weigel, the 4th November 1949.

Really, shouldn't we take the photo of a funnel placed on a table in Besançon with, er, a grain of salt? According to French doctor Dr. Fréjafon, Kramer was beaten by the British and put into a refrigeration room for a night. Maybe that had an adverse effect on his mind and started him allucinating. If Kramer's silly Struthof stories were spontaneous, rather than imposed on him, we might as well picture him as his namesake in Seinfeld, funnel on his head and all.
____________

(*) See Faurisson on the three different confessions of Kramer to the French military justice he discovered:
http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/archFaur/198 ... xxxx4.html

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:34 pm)

comrade seinfeld,
There are plenty of threads here for you to debate specifics, in fact that is what we emphasize here, specifics. Your last post was deleted because of it's accusatory nature concerning wide generalities and assumptions where no specific evidence was introduced, and in the process you largely ignored the topic of this thread. You have been at this forum long enough to know better. I hope you re-read the guidelines.
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.


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