Auschwitz Inmates

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Sailor
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Auschwitz Inmates

Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:14 pm)

I was out of operation for a while, could not post earlier.

Hebden wrote: This message dates from 25 January 1942, only 5 days after the infamous Wannsee conference in Berlin. At this time, the alleged plan to murder all deported Jews not needed for labor had not come into effect. Mr. Himmler's intention to induct 150,000 German Jews into the concentration camp system within 4 weeks seems highly optimistic and so it proved.


This alleged plan, are you referring to the Wannsee conference? But it does not say to murder all deported Jews which are not needed for work.

I agree, to provide for 150,000 Jews in concentration camps within 4 weeks is very tight.

There is no record in the Auschwitz Calendar of registration numbers being issued to these people. If there were no mass gassings at Auschwitz
then those unfit for labor would routinely have been accommodated elsewhere. In that sense, the Schwarz message is not especially incriminating. Whilst revisionists still have the problem of locating where all these people may have disappeared to, exterminationists might ponder on the reason why Lieutenant Schwarz sought to employ euphemisms beyond the supposedly standardized 'Sonderbehandlung'.



In the latest VffG magazine, which came in the mail yesterday, is a piece by Mattogno: Franciszek Piper and The Number of Victims of Auschwitz. I am doing the translation for Rudolf right now to be published in about 6 months. I am almost finished with it and can post it here in a day or two.

The first problem is, how many Jews were deported to Auschwitz. F. Piper, the head of the History Department of the Auschwitz museum wrote a book about this, The Number of Victims in Auschwitz, and Mattogno rips the book apart.

Mattogno summarizes:
The first problem of course is, to find out how many Jews actually were deported to Auschwitz. Mattogno comes up with 1,111,100 deportees, including 914,600 Jews and 196, 500 non-Jews.

About 401,500 inmates were registered, of these were about 205,000 Jews.

The number of transferees from the transfer camp of Birkenau to other camps is at least 98,600.

At least 250,800 prisoners were transferred or evacuated in 1944 and 1945.

The number of dead in Auschwitz is about 135,500.

The number of dismissed, transferred and liberated from 1940 to 1945 is at least about 364,600.

The difference (1,111,100 – 364,600 – 135,500) = about 611,000. This is the number of victims which were according to the official history “non-registered gassed”.

A total of not less than 500,100 prisoners were accepted in the camp, of these 401,000 registered and about 98,600 were quartered in the transfer camp of Birkenau.

Mattogno: The fate of the missing Jews
Neither F. Piper nor any other historian has ever furnished even a trace of proof of gassings of non-registered inmates. On the other hand it can be shown with absolute certainty that two in the literature widest exploited alleged gassings – the one of the gypsies in Birkenau and the one of the inmates of the ghetto in Lodz are actually history falsifications (Mattogno adds to further pieces about this in the magazine which I will do afterwards). Of the other alleged gassings does not exist a single documentary proof.

It is also a fact that the official historiography considers at least 79,200 non-registered Hungarian Jews who were admitted to the transfer camp of Birkenau, were considered gassed. Piper reduces this still to 54,200!

Concerning the fate of the 611,000 missing Jews, several documentary sources indicate, that they were deported to the East. Reichsminister Albert Speer talked in this connection, specifically referring to Auschwitz in an important document of “Ostwanderung” (Eastern emigration).

We challenge you to name some of these camps. A dozen will do, for starters. Then we shall see how many people could possibly be accounted for.


I heard this before. Was it Roberto or Hans?
There are several documents talking in a general way about deportations of Jews to the East. But there is very little which specifically gives names of camps, towns.
But there is no proof of gassings or gas chambers either. And the cremation capacity was also quite limited.

The evidence was presented at the Irving-Lipstadt trial:

http://www.davenportlyons.com/www/legal ... ction2.htm

So who is right? Mattogno or the defense team of the Irving trial?
By the latter assertion, he means the claim they were gassed. Note he does not dispute the registration numbers of those inducted into the camp. Mr. Faurisson evidently accepts the authenticity and accuracy of the registration numbering system. So do we. If Mr. Sailor wants to continue in his unfounded belief that tens of thousands of unregistered Jews were held in Auschwitz during 1943, that is his business.


Is that what I said? Was the question not about what happened to 4000 Jews or so and I suggested maybe they were sent to a “Schonblock” (SB) (recuperation block), which caused a big commotion on another forum by Hans. (He is a fan of interpreting SB as “Sonderbehandlung” which to him is a codeword for killing).
But I am puzzled somewhat about the purpose of the Birkenau camp. I am not convinced of the work camp version, except work for the operation and maintenace of the camp itself, and may be some minor outside work assignments. Or was it mainly a “Durchgangslager” (transfer camp)?
:D

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Re: Auschwitz Inmates

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:23 am)

Sailor wrote:This alleged plan, are you referring to the Wannsee conference? But it does not say to murder all deported Jews which are not needed for work.


The operative word is 'alleged'.

The first problem is, how many Jews were deported to Auschwitz. F. Piper, the head of the History Department of the Auschwitz museum wrote a book about this, The Number of Victims in Auschwitz, and Mattogno rips the book apart.


We have heard of it. Apparently it has pull-outs which list all the known transports to and from Auschwitz, which would be very nice to have. An abridged version appeared as a chapter, The Number of Victims, in the compendium volume Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp.

Mattogno summarizes:
The first problem of course is, to find out how many Jews actually were deported to Auschwitz. Mattogno comes up with 1,111,100 deportees, including 914,600 Jews and 196, 500 non-Jews.


Are 'deported to' and 'arrived at' used here synonomously? What numbers are given by Dr. Piper and Mr. Mattogno for Jews detrained at Cosel before their arrival at Auschwitz? To our knowledge this practice happened only during 1942. A survey of the Auschwitz Chronicle suggests a total figure in the region of a few thousand. However, Mr. Zimmerman in his book Holocaust Denial mentions that 'The Red Cross notes that of the 27,503 deportees [of Dutch Jews] from August 28, 1942, to December 12, 1942, 6,078 men were seized for labor purposes before the transports reached Auschwitz.' If a similar proportion were selected from transports of French and Belgian Jews within this time frame, the actual number could be substantially higher than we previously thought. In his book Richard Korherr And His Reports Mr. Stephen Challen goes so far as to conjecture that all of the 50,000 Jews listed in the Korherr report as working in the Organisation Schmelt in Upper Silesia at the end of 1942 must have been Western deportees taken from transports bound for Auschwitz.

In 1983, Mr. Georges Wellers concluded that there were over 1.6 million deportees sent to Auschwitz of whom 1.43 million were Jews.

In his study Dr. Piper reduced these figures to ‘at least’ 1.3 million deportees including 1.1 million Jews.

Mr. Mattogno now in turn reduces the total deportees to 1.11 million of whom 914,000 were Jews.

About 401,500 inmates were registered, of these were about 205,000 Jews.


These figures are undisputed.

The number of transferees from the transfer camp of Birkenau to other camps is at least 98,600.


Dr. Piper puts this figure at only 25,000 based on the Chronicle.

At least 250,800 prisoners were transferred or evacuated in 1944 and 1945.


Dr. Piper, basing himself on lists published by a Mr.Andrjez Strzelecki, posits a figure of 187,800 persons transferred or evacuated from the camp in 1944-45, but this includes the unregistered transit-prisoners, estimated as 25,000. In addition, must be counted 1,500 released prisoners, 500 escapees and the 8,000 liberated inmates.

Dr. Piper also cites an estimated 25,000 prisoners transferred in the years 1940-43 whereas Mr. Mattogno seems to be using a much lower figue of several thousand (364,000 - 250,000 - 98,000 - 8,000). Perhaps the fact that some transferees returned to Auschwitz could be significant.

Dr. Piper's grand total of camp survivors then is 222,000 compared to Mr. Mattogno’s 364,000.

The number of dead in Auschwitz is about 135,500.


This is a figure Mr. Mattogno has extrapolated from a study of the Death Books. Dr. Piper apparently thinks about 200,000 prisoners died.

The number of dismissed, transferred and liberated from 1940 to 1945 is at least about 364,600.

The difference (1,111,100 – 364,600 – 135,500) = about 611,000. This is the number of victims which were according to the official history “non-registered gassed”.


Dr. Piper calculated: (1,300,000 – 222,000 – 200,000) = about 878,000 ‘non-registered gassed’.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Apr 27, 2003 11:32 am)

Hebden says:
Dr. Piper calculated: (1,300,000 – 222,000 – 200,000) = about 878,000 ‘non-registered gassed’.


All this and the lack of evidence for gas chambers is rather amusing; and still no substantiation that 'unregistered' equals murdered.

Is Hebden able to defend the link, that was posted again by Sailor in this thread (see below), which Hebden claims is "evidence"? Does Hebden accept my challenge to go through this list one by one and defend his declared "evidence"?

Hebden's evidence:
http://www.davenportlyons.com/www/legal ... ction2.htm

I wonder what Piper is paid every year?

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Apr 27, 2003 12:28 pm)

Hannover wrote:Is Hebden able to defend the link, that was posted again by Sailor in this thread (see below), which Hebden claims is "evidence"? Does Hebden accept my challenge to go through this list one by one and defend his declared "evidence"?


What purpose could possibly be served other than to highlight your ignorance of the subject matter and indeed your ignorance generally?

Take no. 1 on the list:

1. The evidence of gassings of Jews at Auschwitz emerged gradually and cumulatively from a convergence of independent accounts: RVPp333. The available evidence includes the following:

(evidence available before the end of 1944)

Contemporary Polish documents – the ‘Polish Fortnightly Review’ from November 1941 and 1 and 15 July 1942: RVPp102-105 (n153, 155, 158)
March 1943 secret radio broadcast to London from the Polish resistance: RVPp107-108;
March 1944 report from the Polish Consul-General in Istanbul: RVPp113
Report ‘Oboz Smierci’ (‘Camp of Death’) – published by Poles in New York in March 1944: RVPp113-4
Three reports from mid-1944 (published by the War Refugee Board in late 1944):
Report by Rudolf Vrba and Alfred Wetzlar (imprisoned in Auschwitz until their escape in April 1994): RVPp116, 133-136.

Report by Jerzy Tabeau (escaped from Auschwitz in November 1943): RVPp116

Report by Arnost Rosin and Czeslaw Mordowicz (escaped from Auschwitz in May 1944)

Reports following the liberation of Maidanek in July 1944: RVPp122-132

Reports by Simonov, Lawrence, Karmen and Lauterbach: RVPp122-129

Report of the joint Soviet-Polish commission on Maidanek, which included eye-witness testimony (from inmates and SS men) and forensic evidence relating to gassings in gas chambers: RVPp128-132


Which of the above sources are you familiar with? Have you read, for instance, Sir Martin Gilbert's Auschwitz and the Allies, probably still the best book on the subject on the emergence of gassing claims at Auschwitz? Or how about London Has Been Informed...Reports by Auschwitz Escapees which provides the full texts of the WRB reports?

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Apr 27, 2003 1:37 pm)

Hebden,

You have been challenged to support your belief in homicidal gas chambers after linking to a list of what you called 'evidence'. Simply re-posting that challenged list is not a sincere response. You were asked to debate one item at a time, you have failed to do that. If you cannot support your position then please say so and we'll move on.

Also, your reliance on personal attacks does not obscure the fact that you dodge challenges.

We're here to debate, please do so.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Apr 27, 2003 1:45 pm)

Moderator wrote:Hebden,

You have been challenged to support your belief in homicidal gas chambers after linking to a list of what you called 'evidence'.


Who said we believed in homicidal gas chambers? We just pointed out the evidence of those that do.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:09 pm)

Hebden, you said:
The evidence was presented at the Irving-Lipstadt trial:

http://www.davenportlyons.com/www/legal ... ction2.htm


Do you accept this so called "evidence" as fact? Yes or no. If yes, explain why, one by one, in individual threads. No games.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:20 pm)

Hebden:

Have it your way, your dodging a perfectly clear question in regards to your own statements means you are done with this thread. Any further posts you make to this thread will be deleted.

It would appear you are more interested in distraction; it's not going to happen here.

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