Were at least 575 Auschwitz prisoners gassed?

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Were at least 575 Auschwitz prisoners gassed?

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu May 01, 2003 8:33 am)

According to Professor Robert Jay Lifton, in his book The Nazi Doctors:

It was probably inevitable that the T4 killing project would be extended to the concentration camps, but the program under which that was done, bearing the code name 14f13, has always been something of a mystery. From the standpoint of this study, we may view this program as a key means of linking the direct medical killing we have been discussing with the medicalized killing in the concentration camps - that is, linking the Nazi version of "euthanasia" with genocide.


When, due to growing public disquiet, the euthansia program was officially halted in August 1941, Operation 14 f 13 was not affected.

Mr. Willi Dressen, in his chapter on "Euthanasia" in the book Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the Use of Poison Gas, writes:

The process of picking out those concentration camp prisoners who were unfit for work began in the spring of 1941. This operation had been the subject of an agreement between Himmler and Bouhler. Because of the abominable living conditions in the concentration camps, more and more prisoners were falling ill. So as not to overburden the camps and to avoid causing undue unrest among the prisoners, T4, with its equipment and specialized personnel, was given the responsibility of getting rid of invalids. Bouhler informed Brack, who briefed T4 and saw to it that all the necessary measures were taken.

The operation aimed at eliminating the invalids was referred to by Himmler and the inspector of concentration camps as "special treatment 14 f 13." For security reasons, code words were used for the various ways in which concentration camp inmates died. The classifications were taken from the case notes used by the inspector's office. For example, cases of natural death were given the code "14 f 1"; suicides or accidental deaths "14 f 2"; being shot while trying to escape "14 f 3"; and execution "14 f I." In April 1941, by order of Himmler and under the code name "14 f 13," the "euthanasia" of prisoners - the "special treatment of sick or infirm prisoners" - began.

From the start of the operation the T4 organization regularly sent medical commissions to the camps to select and list prisoners for liquidation. Often prisoners in good health and fit for work were also put on the lists, if someone in authority was interested in getting rid of them. This was particularly true of Jewish prisoners. Declaration forms based on these lists were filled out by the camps and presented to the physicians of the T4 commission. The physicians sometimes saw the prisoners, depending on the case, but did not give them a thorough examination, and they indicated their decision with a cross in the box provided on the form.


Convoys of these 'invalid' prisoners would be sent to "convalescent camps" (as they were sometimes represented to the victims) such as Bernburg, Hartheim and Sonnenstein to be gassed with carbon monoxide.

If the Nazi Mass Murder book is anything to go by, the documentary evidence for the existence and operation of the 14 f 13 program is quite thin. Much of the evidence apparently comes from the trials of two German doctors; Dr. Mennecke, tried after the war in 1946, and Dr. Schumann, eventually brought to trial in 1970.

Two important documents which have survived are both interesting for the fact that they give instructions which seek to restrict the extent of the operation.

The first is a letter from the Inspector of Concentration Camp's Office, dated 26 March 1942 and sent to the commandants of all the camps, including Auschwitz:

A camp commandant's report [from Gross-Rosen] has made it known that of 51 prisoners selected for special treatment 14 f 13, 42 had "again become fit for work" after a certain time, so that it was no longer necessary to apply special treatment to them. This case clearly shows that the regulations were not observed at the time of the prisoners' selection. Only those categories of prisoners referred to in the regulations should be brought before the medical commission, particularly those who are no longer fit to work.

In order to accomplish the work loads assigned to the concentration camps, it it necessary to keep in the camp all prisoners who are fit for work. The camp commandants are asked to pay particular attention to this.


The other is the previously referred to April 1943 order sent on behalf of the WHVA by SS-Brigadefuhrer Gluecks:

"The Reichsführer SS and Chief of the German Police has decided after consultation, that in the future only mentally sick prisoners may be selected for action 14-F-13 by the medical commissions appointed for this purpose.

"All other prisoners incapable of working (tubercular cases, bedridden cripples, et cetera) are to be basically excepted from this action. Bedridden prisoners are to be drafted for suitable work which they can perform in bed.

"The order of the Reichsführer SS is to be obeyed strictly in the future.

"Therefore requests for fuel for this purpose are unnecessary."


It is claimed that a new phase of the program began on April 11 1944, when an order re-authorised the earlier practice of killing prisoners unfit for work. The selections, however, would now be carried out by the camp doctors themselves, doing away with the need for medical commissions. The ‘Hartheim “euthansia” facility became the sole destination for the ‘invalid transports’, with those at Bernburg and Sonnenstein having been closed down in 1943.

The number of prisoners who were killed during the history of the program is not known, but has been estimated in the region of 20,000. For Auschwitz, a definite figure is claimed: 575 prisoners were transferred to the Sonnestein facility on 28 July 1941.

Ms. Czech’s Calender for that day reads:
A special commission created on Himmler’s orders arrives at Auschwitz to select prisoners within the framework of the “Euthanasia Program” for the incurably ill, extended in 1940 to Jews and in the middle of 1941 to prisoners of concentration camps. The committee inspects all invalids, cripples, and chronically ill who have previously been chosen by the camp administration under the pretext of shifting them to another camp for easier work. One member of this special doctors’ committee is Dr. Horst Schumann, who has directed the Grafeneck Euthanasia Institute in Wurttemberg since August 1939 and, after its dissolution, served as director of a similar institution in Sonnenstein near Pirna. Most of the selected prisoners come from what was then called Block 15, the convalescent block, where sick and exhausted prisoners and those incapable of working are sent when an SS doctor no longer wants them to remain in the prisoners' infirmary. Some of these prisoners have registered voluntarily because of the rumor circulating in the camp that inmates chosen for this transport are to be transferred to a sanitorium. Altogether, 573 inmates, most of them Poles, are chosen. At the last moment, two German BV prisoners who have participated eagerly with the SS men in killing prisoners are added to the transport: Johann Siegruth (No. 26), the one-armed head Capo of the lumber yard, and Ernst Krankemann (No. 3210), the Block Senior of Block 11 and Capo in the road construction labor squad. Following Dr. Schumman's orders, the transport is sent to Sonnerstein under the direction of Roll Call Leader Franz Hossler. A report to Hoss that Hossler makes after his return states that the prisoners were gassed in a bathroom where carbon monoxide gas was introduced through the showerheads.


For this entry, reference is made to the Hoess trial, witness accounts, prisoner memoirs, and perhaps most importantly, to a record of a transport of 575 inmates to Dresden.
Last edited by Hebden on Thu May 01, 2003 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu May 01, 2003 9:43 am)

Willi Dressen, who is also co-authour of the nonsensical book, 'The Good Old Days' is hardly credible. In that book and in the text posted here we have amazing assertions but not a shread of evidence. In other words, Dressen simply makes statements with no foundation. Where are the original document to support his fantasies?

Two surviving letters? Where? I do not see them, only text alleging their content. Without the alleged originals we have nothing but someone's agenda to rely upon.

Then there's a reference to Czech's 'Calendar', about as unreliable a work as can be, as shown in other posts here.

Garbage in, garbage out.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu May 01, 2003 10:11 pm)

This is an interesting subject: Euthanization in the concentration camp. Dr. Franz Scheidl wrote a chapter Die Euthanisierungen in his book Geschichte der Verfemung Deutschlands, Die Konzentrationlager. (History of Germany’s Ostracism, The Concentration Camps).
http://www.vho.org/D/gdvd_3/III1.html

Scheidl wrote:Die Euthanasierungen in den KZ
Die Durchführung der Euthanasierung unheilbar geisteskranker KZ-Häftlinge war an die gleichen strengen Vorschriften gebunden. Nur eine Ärztekommission konnte darüber entscheiden. Der Unterschied war nur der, daß die Euthanasie außerhalb der KZ im Herbst 1941 endgültig abgestoppt, in den KZ aber weiter durchgeführt wurde.
Aus dem Erlasse des Inspektors der KZ vom 10. Dezember 1941:
"An alle Lagerkommandanten der KZ Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, Mauthausen, Auschwitz, Flossenbürg, Groß-Rosen, Neuengamme, Niederhagen.
…in der nächsten Zeit wird die Ärztekommission die vorgenannten KZ zur Ausmusterung von Häftlingen aufsuchen …
…(die Meldebogen sind als Vorarbeit auszufüllen). Die Frage 'körperlich unheilbare Leiden' ist nach Möglichkeit nicht nur mit Ja oder Nein, sondern mit kurzer Angabe der Diagnose zu beantworten … Sämtliche vorhandenen Akten und Krankenblätter sind der Kommission … zur Einsichtnahme zur Verfügung zu stellen … Nach Abschluß der Untersuchungen ist … Bericht zu erstatten: dabei ist die Zahl der Sonderbehandlung '14 f 13' zugeführten Häftlinge zu melden. Der genaue Zeitpunkt des Eintreffens der Ärztekommission wird rechtzeitig bekanntgegeben."
Noch am 7. März 1943 ordnete Himmler neuerlich ausdrücklich an, daß nur solche Häftlinge euthanasiert werden dürften, die durch eigene psychiatrische Kommissionen ärztlich als geisteskrank erklärt worden waren. Arbeitsunfähige sind ausdrücklich von der Euthanasierung ausgenommen.
"An die Lagerkommandanten der KZ Da., Sah., Bu., Mau., Neu., Au., Gr.-R., Natz., Stu., Rav.-Ri., Herz.-Lubl. und Bergen-Belsen …
Der Reichsführer SS … hat entschieden, daß in Zukunft nur noch geisteskranke Häftlinge durch die hierfür bestimmten Ärztekommissionen . . ausgemustert werden dürfen.
Alle übrigen arbeitsunfähigen Häftlinge (Tuberkulosekranke, bettlägerige Krüppel usw.) sind grundsätzlich von dieser Aktion auszunehmen. Bettlägerige Häftlinge sollen zu einer entsprechenden Arbeit, die sie auch im Bett verrichten können, herangezogen werden.
Der Befehl des Reichsführers SS ist in Zukunft genauestens zu beachten … Datum: 27. April 1943."
Soweit anfangs Euthanasierungen von Häftlingen durch Vergasung vorgenommen wurden, geschah dies niemals in den KZ. Die Häftlinge wurden in die hiefür eingerichteten Anstalten gebracht. Mit der Errichtung von KZ außerhalb Deutschlands erwiesen sich die Transporte dieser Geisteskranken als zu umständlich. Man ging dazu über, das für die Euthanasierung durch Vergasung geschulte Personal vorübergehend in einzelne KZ zu entsenden. Dabei ist festzuhalten, daß die Vergasungseinrichtungen in der Regel nur Einzelvergasungen ermöglichten. Die gleichzeitige Vergasung war in jedem Falle auf eine ganz geringe Anzahl von Personen beschränkt. Gleichzeitige Massenvergasungen - die Lügenpropaganda spricht von vielen Hunderten, ja Tausenden in einem Raum - gab es nicht; sie waren allein schon technisch gar nicht möglich und durchführbar.
Sicher ist, daß es ab Ende 1942 überhaupt keine Euthanasievergasungen mehr gab. Auch in den KZ erfolgten die Euthanasierungen nur mehr durch "Abspritzen", d. h. durch Injektion rasch und völlig schmerzlos wirkender Mittel.
Die Hetzpropaganda versucht glauben zu machen, daß die Euthanasierung kranker Häftlinge erfolgte, ohne daß die Unheilbarkeit mit genügender Sorgfalt untersucht wurde.
Viktor Brack sagte dazu im Ärzteprozeß (Prot. Seite 7645 f.):
"… Im Sommer 1941 wurde mir mitgeteilt, daß Himmler beabsichtige, die Schwerstkranken in den KZ auf ihren Gesamtzustand sowohl körperlich als auch psychisch-geistig untersuchen zu lassen …
Himmler bat, ihm neutrale Ärzte zur Verfügung zu stellen, da er in die Fachkenntnisse der Lagerärzte nicht genügend Vertrauen habe … Ich erhielt den Auftrag, daß erfahrene Psychiater abgestellt würden, um die Häftlinge in den KZ zu untersuchen …"
Abgesehen davon, daß in den KZ nicht nur Juden, sondern zum allerwenigsten Juden euthanasiert wurden, gab es überhaupt niemals Masseneuthanasierungen. Die Abspritzungen in den KZ fanden auch nicht entfernt in den Ausmaßen statt, wie die infame Lügenpropaganda der Welt einreden will. Euthanasiert wurden nur Todeskandidaten, aber nicht Kranke bloß wegen ihrer Arbeitsunfähigkeit. Es mögen natürlich vereinzelt Mißbräuche vorgekommen sein. Vor allem benützten die Häftlingsfunktionäre selbst die Möglichkeit, auf Grund ihrer Stellung politische und persönliche Feinde auf diese Art - Mord durch Abspritzen - zu beseitigen. Ebenso aufschlußreich wie grauenhaft ist, was Rassinier über das KZ Dora berichtet:
(Seite 119/120): "In Dora gab es eine ganze Kompanie deutscher, polnischer, tschechischer oder russischer Pfleger, die von ihrer Arbeit natürlich nichts verstanden. In Dora gab es keinen Meerschweinchenblock und Abspritzungen fanden nicht statt. IM ALLGEMEINEN WURDEN ABSPRITZUNGEN IN ALLEN LAGERN NICHT BEI GEWÖHNLICHEN HÄFTLINGEN ANGEWENDET, SONDERN VON DEN RIVALISIERENDEN HÄFTLINGSSTÄMMEN GEGENEINANDER: Die Grünen (Kriminellen) gebrauchten diese Mittel, um sich auf geschmeidige Art von den Roten zu befreien, um sich gegenseitig von der Macht zu verdrängen bzw. an der Erlangung der Macht zu hindern."
Es mag vielleicht den einen oder anderen Arzt gegeben haben, der seine Machtbefugnis leichtfertig anwendete und mißbrauchte. Diese leichtfertige mißbräuchliche Anwendung fand aber nicht die nachträgliche Zustimmung der verantwortlichen Stellen. Wer bei leichtfertiger Tötung von Häftlingen ertappt wurde, hatte selbst mit der Todesstrafe zu rechnen. So wurde 1944 ein Prozeß gegen den SS-Arzt Hoven eröffnet. Hoven hatte im Dienste von anderen sowohl Häftlinge wie SS-Leute abgespritzt.
Der ehemalige SS-Untersuchungsrichter Dr. jur. Konrad Morgen, der in den Jahren 1943 und 1944 mit der Aufklärung von Verbrechen in KZ beauftragt war, sagte im Ärzteprozeß aus (Doc. Karl Brandt. 20):
"Da ich bei meinen Nachforschungen eine als Euthanasie bezeichnete, vor langer Zeit erfolgte Tötungsaktion von körperschwachen Alten und unheilbaren Kranken in den KZ habe feststellen können, die möglicherweise mit '14 f 13' bezeichnet worden ist und bei der offenbar zum Teil in ärztlich unverantwortlicher Weise, zum anderen Teil in ausgesprochen krimineller Mordabsicht gehandelt worden ist, habe ich deshalb sowohl mit dem Reichsarzt SS Dr. Grawitz und mit Prof. Dr. Heyde Rücksprache genommen. Bereits bei meinen ersten Andeutungen sprang Grawitz entsetzt auf und sagte, er wisse das. Aber es möge kein Wort mehr darüber verloren werden, nachdem dies von ihm schon abgestellt sei. Ähnlich peinlich berührt war Prof. Dr. Heyde. (Dr. Hoven stand damals unter Anklage wegen Mordverdacht.) Grawitz und Heyde hatten wohl selbst das Gefühl, daß die unteren Organe ihnen aus der Hand geglitten waren. Die Erinnerung daran durch mich war für sie außerordentlich unbequem …"


My “translator circuit” is slightly overloaded and the English versions follows tomorrow.

Says Dr. Stäglich:
Whether euthanasia is ever justifiable, for example, during a life and death struggle such as the Second World War, may be disputed. On this matter the testimony of the Auschwitz Trial defendant Josef Klehr is very much to the point. Among other things, Klehr stated that inmates singled out for the "knock-off shot" ("Abspritzung") were not merely ill, but already half-dead.' The employment of this method of killing would seem, by the way, to speak against the existence of "gas chambers": Why were the terminally ill not simply "gassed" along with the rest?


:D

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 02, 2003 1:08 am)

The main point is that Believers desperately try to connect euthanasia with the bogus 'gassings' and 'extermination policy'. Try as they may they cannot do it, in spite of concocted nonsense from the likes of Willi Dressen.
Legitimate euthanasia of incurably ill is used to demonize National Socialists in a silly, ghoulish manner. That's particularily odd since such activity is commonplace today.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 02, 2003 10:48 am)

This is the English version of above:

The Euthanasia in the Concentration Camps

The implementation of the euthanasia of incurable mentally deseased concentration camp inmates was under the same strict rules [as civilian euthanasia]. Only a medical commission could make decisions about this. The only difference was, that the euthanasia outside the concentration camps was stopped in the fall of 1941 for good, but continued in the camps.

From the decrees of the inspector for concentration camps on December 10, 1941:

»To all camp commanders of the concentration camps Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, Mauthausen, Auschwitz, Flossenbürg, Groß-Rosen, Neuengamme, Niederhagen …
in the near future a medical commission will visit the named camps for the selection of inmates …
(the forms have to be completed in advance). The question ‘physically uncurable desease’ shall if possible not only be answered with ‘Yes’ or ‘No’, but shall be answered with a short diagnosis [of the deseas] …
all available files and sickness sheets have to be made available to the commission …
for inspection. …
After completion of the investigation …
is a report to be prepared about the number of inmates to be subjected to the Sonderbehandlung ‘14f13’. The exact date of the arrival of the medical commission will be announced in time.«


Himmler ordered still in March 7, 1943 again emphatically, that only such inmates are allowed to be subjected to euthanasia , who are declared medically as mentally disabled by a competent psychiatric commission. Unemployable [inmates] are explicitly excluded from the euthanasia program.

»To the camp commandants of the camps Da., Sah., Bu., Mau., Neu., Au., Gr.-R., Natz., Stu., Rav.-Ri., Herz.-Lubl., and Bergen-Belsen …
The Reichsführer SS…
has decided, that in the future only mentally disabled inmates are allowed to be selected by the medical commission which is assigned to this task.
All other inmates who are unable to work (tuberculosis, bedridden cripples etc.) are categorically to be excluded from this action. Bedridden inmates shall be assigned to a suitable work which they also can do in bed. The order of the Reichsführer shall be followed strictly in future…Date: April 27, 1943.«



The euthanasia of inmates by gas, [as was done] in the beginning, were never done in the concentration camps. For this the prisoners were brought to the institutions which were designed for this. When concentration camps were erected outside of Germany, the transports of these mentally disabled proved to be quite cumbersome. In order to implement euthanasia by gassing, trained personnel were temporary sent to individual concentration camps. It has to be noted that gassing installations as a rule were only suitable for individual gassings. The simultaneous gassing was in any case limited to a very small number of persons. Simultaneous mass gassings – the propaganda mentions many hundreds, even thousands in one room – did not exist, they were not at all technically neither possible and workable.

It is quite certain, that after the end of 1942 there were no more authanasia killings with gas. Even in the concentration camps the euthanasias were performed by injection of fast and painless solutions.

Propaganda tried to make believe, that sick inmates were killed by euthanasia without checking first the incurability with the necessary adequate care. Viktor Brack testified about this in the Medical Trial (Prot. P. 7645):

»…I was informed in the summer of 1941, that Himmler planned to have the seriously sick in the concentration camps medically checked for their overall conditions, physically as well as psychic-mentally…
Himmler asked to have medical doctors made available , because he did not sufficiantly trust in this the camp doctors…
I received the order that experienced psychiatrists were made available, in order to check the inmates in the concentration camps…«


Besides the fact, that in the concentration camps not only Jews, but least Jews, were killed through euthanasia, there never were mass euthanasias. The “knock-off injections” did not remotely happen at the scale, which propaganda tries to make the public believe. Only people who were already dying were killed through euthanasia, and not the sick, only because they were unable to work.But there may have been isolated cases of abuse. Especially some privileged prisoners used their position, to remove political and personal enemies in this manner – murder through “knock-off injections. Also informative as well as horrible is Rassinier’s report about the concentration camp Dora (p. 119/120):

»In Dora was a whole company of German, Polish, Czech or Russian male nurses, who of course did not understand anything about their work. There was in Dora no camp section reserved for medical experiments and there were no “knock-off injections.
IN GENERAL WERE LETHAL INJECTIONS ONLY ADMINISTERED IN ALL CAMPS NOT TO ORDINARY INMATES BUT BY RIVALLING PRISONER GROUPS AGAINST EACH OTHER: The Greens (criminals) used this tool in order to get rid in a smooth way of the Reds, to mutually oust or block each other from power positions.«


There may have been occasionally a medical doctor, who used and abused his power carelessly. This carelessness and abuse did not find afterwards approval from men in higher responsible positttions. Who was caught with careless killing of inmates had himself to face the death penalty. For example the SS-doctor Hoven was tried in 1944. Hoven killed officially inmates as well as SS-people with lethal injections.

The former SS-Judge Dr. Konrad Morgen, who was in the years 1943 and 1944 in charge of the investigation of crimes in the concentration camps, testified during the “Medical Trial” (Doc. Karl Brand. 20):

»Because I discovered during my investigations of weak old and incurably sick people in the concentration camps being killed in ways, which possibly could be designated with ‘14f13’, and were evidently done to some extent in medically irresponsible ways, on the other hand with downright criminal murder intent, I therefore consulted with Reichsarzt SS Dr. Grawitz and Prof. Dr. Heyde. Already during my initial hints did Grawitz jump up appalled and said , that he knew of this. But not a word about this should be mentioned, since this was already remedied by himself. Similarly embarrassed was Prof. Dr. Heyde. (Dr. Hoven was at that time accused of suspicion of murder.) Grawitz and Heyde probably had the feeling themselves, that the lower organisation went out of control. To be reminded of this by myself was for them quite uncomfortable…«


:D

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 02, 2003 1:35 pm)

Hannover wrote:The main point is that Believers desperately try to connect euthanasia with the bogus 'gassings'


buuuuut...the book sailor posted connect eutanasie with "gassings"!!!! 8O

quote: "Anfänglich erfolgte die Euthanasierung durch Vergasung." (in the beginning the euthanasie was done by gassing)

http://www.vho.org/D/gdvd_3/III1.html

seidel is a revisionist so is this the revisionist view?????? eutanasie was done by gassing???

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Last edited by Germania on Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 02, 2003 1:49 pm)

One needs evidence 1st, not someone's assertions.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 02, 2003 2:13 pm)

from Dr. Faurisson:
www.vho.org/aaargh/engl/FaurisArch/RF8412xx.html

To convince oneself that there were never any homicidal gas chambers in German hospitals, it is sufficient to refer to the "testimonies" of those who claim that there were such gas chambers in such places. The narratives, uniformly idiotic, can be read, for example, in the recent work by Kogon, Langbein, Rueckerl, et. al., NS-Massentoetungen durch Giftgas: eine Dokumentation (Nazi Mass Killings by Poison Gas: A Documentation [Frankfurt a/M: S. Fischer Verlag, 1983], 350pp.). Besides, can we imagine the bed-ridden, people at death's door, some lacking arms or legs, gathering submissively at the entrance to a room where they would have then been left alone with one wash cloth each and a piece of soap ("Seife und Handtuecher," Kogon, et al., p. 48 -- this room that supposedly had been camouflaged as a shower (no doubt for the benefit of the blind)?
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 02, 2003 2:19 pm)

hannover,but this is just text from faurisson,nothing we can work with.and scheidl is not somebody,his works are revisionist classics!!!

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 02, 2003 2:30 pm)

Faurisson simply emphasizes the absurdity of such a notion. Show me the proof for euthanasia gassings. What proof does Scheidl have?
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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 02, 2003 3:10 pm)

Hannover wrote:Faurisson simply emphasizes the absurdity of such a notion.


but he could also emphasizes absurdity of moonlanding and i wouldnt believe it either. See, he is talking much, but says nothing... :(

Show me the proof for euthanasia gassings. What proof does Scheidl have?


has no proof.

what do you think how were the people killed and whats your proof???

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 02, 2003 3:30 pm)

Well, Germania you have misunderstood the most of the things. We should never proof anything, they that told us the stories, they should proof that we are wrong.
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 02, 2003 7:03 pm)

Germania wrote: quote: "Anfänglich erfolgte die Euthanasierung durch Vergasung." (in the beginning the euthanasie was done by gassing)

http://www.vho.org/D/gdvd_3/III1.html

seidel is a revisionist so is this the revisionist view?????? eutanasie was done by gassing???


After Mr. Hebden quoted W. Dressen and D. Czech, I thought it appropiate to quote a revisionist, F. Seidel. In order to have a good look at the problem from all sides.

Seidel is indeed a revisionist. Purebred. He based his information about the euthanasia gassing
on a statement made under oath by the senior nurse P. Kneissler (Document No. 470) before a German court in the Munich trials (I believe). She testified:

»In the beginning the euthanasia was done by gassing. Normally the patients would receive an injection of 2ccm Morphium-Skopolamin. The injection was administered by the medical doctor. Later the gassing was discontinued and the patient were euthanized with veronal, liminal and morphium-skopolamin, either through injections or orally with pills.«

The prosecution tried 20 years after the fact very hard to stamp the euthanasia trial into a murder trial. The activities of the nurses were not recognised as assisting in mercy killings in order to shorten the suffering of the incurable sick, but as pure murder.

To understand the court methods of the new, oh so democratic Germany, here this:

The accused Erdmann was put under pressure when she testified, that she thought that the killing of the incurables was an act of mercy.

»The interrogating official screamed at me to place me under penal arrest to break me if I don’t say such and such«.

And so she did. And who would blame her?

:D
Last edited by Sailor on Fri May 02, 2003 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hannover
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 02, 2003 9:58 pm)

Ah yes, it's amazing what people can be 'persuaded' to say when coerced by the prosecutors, a la ...'say what we want or pay the price'.

Mr. Scheidl blew it on this one.

Nice post Sailor.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 03, 2003 5:28 am)

Sailor wrote:The activities of the nurses were not recognised as assisting in mercy killings in order to shorten the suffering of the incurable sick, but as pure murder.

can you blame the prosecution??? they came to this after invesigating the case,dont you think so???

The accused Erdmann was put under pressure when she testified, that she thought that the killing of the incurables was an act of mercy.

»The interrogating official screamed at me to place me under penal arrest to break me if I don’t say such and such«.


whats the source??? private conversation of scheidl with erdmann??? if so,scheidl surly asked her about gassing and she doesnt seem to have denied it, dont you think???

and see, you cite hearsy as prove for faked trial,this is not revisionist standard!!! this is not acceptable,sailor!

And so she did.

what she did??? what prove is there that she said something told her by the prosecution???

i see no prove that the trial was not correct.in fact all accused were aquitted... :)


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