Were at least 575 Auschwitz prisoners gassed?

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Germania
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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 03, 2003 5:41 am)

Malle wrote:Well, Germania you have misunderstood the most of the things. We should never proof anything, they that told us the stories, they should proof that we are wrong.


i think i understood well. revisionism is no oneway.it has 2 component. first,refuting and rejecting old history. second,proving and establising new history. the good thing is by proving new history the old history is also refuted. so if it is shown that all people were killed by injection,they were not gassed. so i ask again:how were the people killed and whats the prove???

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 03, 2003 10:50 am)

Germania wrote: can you blame the prosecution??? they came to this after invesigating the case,dont you think so???


Theoretically yes, I would agree.

I always get a strange taste in my mouth about anything by the German courts in connection with Holocaust and Nazi crimes .

whats the source??? private conversation of scheidl with erdmann??? if so,scheidl surly asked her about gassing and she doesnt seem to have denied it, dont you think???

and see, you cite hearsy as prove for faked trial,this is not revisionist standard!!! this is not acceptable,sailor!


My source is the link which I quoted in connection with Scheidl’s quote about euthanasia in concentration camps.
He did not specify his source. Erdmann might have told him. Or he may have gotten it from the trial protocol.
It does not seem absurd to me that prosecutors or police officers during pre-interrogations try to browbeat or frighten the accused in order to get confessions. And the nurses were probably in their 60’s at the time of the trial, they were just plain scared. Especially in Germany. Not difficult to imagine at all.

Were these euthanasia trials fake? Explain.

And I am not a revisionist, I am a skeptical observer of the Jewish Holocaust story. I am a retired engineer, not a historian.

what she did??? what prove is there that she said something told her by the prosecution???

i see no prove that the trial was not correct.in fact all accused were aquitted...


I have no access to the trial protocols.

And maybe the nurses were acquitted. They served the purpose.

Was the German people also acquitted?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 03, 2003 10:50 am)

I'm afraid you point is flawed and illogical.
There is no argument that there was an euthanasia program for incurables, a wise and humane activity, and it's common today. But again, there is no evidence that any of them were gassed. If you have it, bring it.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 03, 2003 11:53 am)

sailor,
so its sheer speculation if erdmann or kneissel or anybody was forced into confesion. its the believe of those who want it to believe. believe is the state of absence of evidence.

you posted evidence for eutanasie gassing from scheidl and - sorry - i still dont see whats wrong with this evidence.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 03, 2003 2:04 pm)

No, not speculation, Erdmann said she was coerced; a risky statement on her part. Scheidl's Kneissel text is therefore shot down by Erdmann. In legitmate criminal procedures the entire matter would be tossed out after coercion was known, statements obtained via coercion are inadmissable....in legitimate courts of law.

The gassing of incurables in camps makes no sense, what did they do, throw them in with the infested clothing? Preposterous, laughable.

So what's left? Nothing but coerced testimony, an absurd accusation, and no corroborative evidence. Got any?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 03, 2003 9:02 pm)

Germania wrote: sailor,
so its sheer speculation if erdmann or kneissel or anybody was forced into confesion. its the believe of those who want it to believe. believe is the state of absence of evidence.

you posted evidence for eutanasie gassing from scheidl and - sorry - i still dont see whats wrong with this evidence.


Let’s look at it again:

The senior nurse P. Kneissler said this under oath:

»In the beginning the euthanasia was done by gassing… «

Did the prosecutir not ask her whether she witnessed the gassing herself?

Or did she hear this from somebody else?

And when did she learn about this? During the war, or afterwards?

And if she witnessed the gassing herself, how was it done?

What gas did they use?

How was it administered?

How was the gas removed afterwards?

How long did the gassing last and how much time was necessary to remove the gas afterwards?

What security measures were taken to protect the personnel on the outside?

And so on, and so on.

Did the prosecutor not ask any of this?

All we have now is this sentence »In the beginning the euthanasia was done by gassing…«

And that is it? That is enough evidence?

Now who is the believer?

Sorry, my friend, This one sentence, coerced or not, is simply not enough.
:D

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun May 04, 2003 2:04 am)

Hannover wrote:No, not speculation, Erdmann said she was coerced;


not exactly....scheidl says (without source) erdmann says she was put under pressure. how many "says" are that??? its hearsy!!! this is no prove. this is hardly evidence. accepting this as evidence would betray the critical standards of revisionism!!!

see,hannover,we have statements under oath recorded by german police officers and courts, and you come with hearsy to destroy this evidence...sorry, dont work so!!!
In legitmate criminal procedures the entire matter would be tossed out after coercion was known


but we dont know if there was any corcion. no reliable evidence, no proof. its speculation, S - P - E - C - U - L - A - T - I - O - N

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun May 04, 2003 3:45 am)

Germania:

As has been asked of Sailor in the past, I will ask of you...translations please...German only text is not that helpful for most at this Forum. Please repost the translations of what was deleted.

Also, please moderate your aggressive tone, no one is impressed by that here.

Thanks, Moderator

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun May 04, 2003 3:56 am)

Germania, you're a bundle of contradictions, you said:
what prove is there that she said something told her by the prosecution??? i see no prove that the trial was not correct.***in fact all accused were aquitted...***


I suggest that Erdmann's statements about coercion are valid since there is no corroborative evidence for euthanasia gassings, even though there were laughable claims that they occurred; and by your own words, all were acquitted.
IOW, pro euthanasia gassing statements were necessarily acquired by coercion, or simple lying, since there is no evidence to support the statements. Not to mention the terribly inefficient & messy procedure that gassings would involve.
In short, it makes no sense. It's all so humorous as we imagine wheeling these incurable people into piles of prisoner clothing being disinfected, or wheeled into the alleged 'gas chambers' with the Jews ...imagine such a sight while trying to convince Jews that they were only getting showers. It's just another example of the fraud falling upon itself. Laughable.

I can give you many, many statements by those who claim to have been abducted by aliens/UFOs.....doesn't mean it happened. How about statements which swear to seeing the Virgin Mother, those claims are made every year by the score. Corroboration by logic & forensic physical evidence are key.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun May 04, 2003 10:51 am)

Sailor wrote:What gas did they use?

co

How was it administered?

pipes

How was the gas removed afterwards?

ventillation

How long did the gassing last and how much time was necessary to remove the gas afterwards?

20 minutes and 30 to 45 minutes.

these info are from tesimony of a eutanasie doctor:

eutanasie doctor wrote:The complete duration of the killing process after closing the doors of the gas room and opening of the CO valve was about 20 minutes as I think to remember today. The ventilator was then left on and the gas siphoned under a simultaneous supply of outer air at first. Till the opening of the doors approx. half to three quarter hour passed. The duration of the gas supply was alone dependent on the watched effect. The influx of the gas was put down as soon as the watching doctor established no more movement in the gas room. I haven't routinely carried out any control examinations to the exact observation of the death after opening the doors of the gas room. This was neither usual nor necessary since the influence of the gas had certainly to be fatal at a complete duration of 20 minutes.

Statement of a eutanasie doctor on 9-4-1961 (reference: Js15/61 GStA Frankfurt)


there is also a tesimony of the stoker vinzenz nohel!!!

stoker nohel wrote:When the ventilation was finished, we stoker - we had always two and two in service - had to get rid of the corpses in the gas chamber and take them to the corpse room [...]
Taking the dead bodies from the gas room into the corpse room was a very difficult...work. It wasn't easy to get the corpses apart and drag them into the corpse room....
The heating system was next to the corpse room. The heating system was equipped with a so-called pan which could be taken out of the stove. On this pan the dead bodies were put and slid into the heating system like in a stove, and put down there. The stove was heated with coke. The work was continued day and night depending on need.
Before the dead bodies were burned, the gold teeth were drawn by the stokers from the deceaseds marked by a cross. These were handed in for the administration [...]

Vinzenz Nohel tesimony at the criminal police Linz on 9-4-1945 (reference: Vg 10 Vr 2407/46 Landgericht Linz)



the stoker is confirmed by two wartime letters!!!

von loewis wrote:
And the farmers on the Alb, who work on the fields and see these cars passing, know also, where they drive, and see day and night the chimney of the crematorium smoking.

letter of else von löwis of 11-25-1940 (reference: Ks 2/63 GStA Frankfurt am Main)


himmler wrote:Top Secret

19 December 1940

SS Standartenfuehrer Viktor Brack
Staff Leader at Reichsleiter Bouhler's Office
Berlin W 8

Dear Brack,

I hear there is great excitement on the Alb because of the Grafeneck Institution.

The population recognizes the gray automobile of the SS and think they know what is going on at the constantly smoking crematory. What happens there is a secret and yet is no longer one.

http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/01/NMT01-T856.htm

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun May 04, 2003 11:06 am)

Hannover wrote:I suggest that Erdmann's statements about coercion are valid since there is no corroborative evidence for euthanasia gassings,


you have to say it opposite!!! i suggest erdmanns statement about threats are invalid since there is no coroborabitive evidence for threats. on the other hand,there is corresponding evidence for eutanasie gassing, see above....

and by your own words, all were acquitted.


because they were legaly not guilty, but not because there was no gassing!!!

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun May 04, 2003 11:13 am)

more...!!!!

Testimony of Brack, regarding gassing of insane people in Germany.
Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I, p. 876-886.

Q: Witness, when adult persons were selected for euthanasia and sent by transport to euthanasia stations for that purpose, by what methods were the mercy deaths given?

A: The patients went to a euthanasia institution after the written formalities were concluded - I need not repeat these formalities here, they were physical examinations, comparison of the files, etc. The patients were led to a gas chamber and were there killed by the doctors with carbon monoxide gas (CO).

Q: Where was that carbon monoxide obtained, by what process?

A: It was in a compressed gas container, like a steel oxygen container, such as is used for welding - a hollow steel container.

Q: And these people were placed in this chamber in groups, I suppose, and then the carbon monoxide was turned into the chambers?

A: Perhaps I had better explain this in some detail. Bouhler's basic requirement was that the killing should not only be painless, but also imperceptible. For this reason, the photographing of the patients, which was only done for scientific reasons, took place before they entered the chambers, and the patients were completely diverted thereby. Then they were led into the gas chamber which they were told was a shower room. They were in groups of perhaps 20 or 30. They were gassed by the doctor in charge.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun May 04, 2003 11:38 am)

Was the nurse P. Kneissler, who said under oath:

»In the beginning the euthanasia was done by gassing… «

asked by the interrogating prosecutor about any of the items which I mentioned? And if she was, what did she say? And if she was not questioned, why not?

About the “euthanasia doctor” of the Frankfurt trial:

I question very much whether future historians will pay much attention to these trials in Germany, as well as to the IMT and NMT and the other various trials by the victors.
As I don’t think that present historians pay much attention to the socalled witchcraft trials of the middle ages. I don't think that trials are very suitable to find out about historic truths.

About the stokers and the smoking chimneys, let’s leave them for later if possible?
:D

PS: And thanks but no, thanks for the moderator assignment. People in Germany should really do something about this. There is a news group, de.sci.geschichte which is in German. Revisionism is not welcome there but it pops up all the time with a lot of posts.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun May 04, 2003 12:33 pm)

Germania,
Your repetitive and often irrelevant responses are cluttering the thread. It makes it difficult for the reader to follow, which is often the intent of such posts. I will not permit unrelated posts or distractions here. Stay on topic, no spamming.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun May 04, 2003 12:39 pm)

sailor, i fear your witchtrial comparison is even less then not justified. we are not talking about fantasy, but about something that can occur and occured, saddam gassed his kurds and americans have gaschambers. we are not talking about the middle age, but about constitutonal criminal procedings!!!


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