Czestochowa, Berman: origin of Treblinka story?

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:53 pm)

I just read some more:

That Weissensee gold article on the istria tourism site is a lie written in the style of "buried treasure" fiction. It is on a tourism website, because the story was written to encourage summertime tourism in a region that, I'll bet, has mainly wintertime skiing tourism, but not much summertime action. In the summer the earth isn't frozen so you can dig for buried treasure which is purportedly buried, coincidentally, near some tourist inns.

I've stayed at inns here in the USA where the same stories abound, of Jesse James' gold, Wild Bill, etc.

If you stay at Hotel Enzian, you're staying right smack next to where GOLD WAS FOUND.

Globocnik, who ended up in Syria as a corresponding member of the CIA-controlled Gehlen Organization,

Page 399 in Yitzhak Arad's book Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, mentions he died on May 31, 1945.

But nice to see that that Nazi-mideast link is going strong in this article!

Like a good mystery novel for 12 year olds, the article is peppered with references to the CIA, STASI. And with all the detail, it's hilarious, as Hannover showed, when they finally take a photo of all the incredible treasure. LOL.

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Postby Charles Krafft » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:45 pm)

That treasure hoarde was purportedly found NOT at Treblinka, but in Austria (Carinthia) around l990. I thought it was somewhat relevant because of who it belonged to, the Treblinka reference and the "dental gold" supposedly unearthed along with all those forints, ducats and kopeks. Anyway, here's a link to some information on Dr. Berman who turns out to be "code-name Borowski," making the whole business very "Spy vs Spy" now.


"....In 1942, Dr. Adolf Berman, code-named "Borowski," was a member of a left-wing Zionist party and a director of CENTOS, a Jewish charitable organization dedicated to the care of children in the ghetto. After the formation of the Jewish National Committee that united six Zionist parties, it was decided that Berman should get out of the ghetto and concentrate on establishing Polish contacts to help Jews escape from the ghetto, and then survive on the Aryan side."

http://www.projectinposterum.com/docs/zegota.htm

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Postby Breker » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:05 am)

The fact that Berman and those around him were communists and Zionists is something that cannot be overlooked.
The linked text - http://www.projectinposterum.com/docs/zegota.htm - is nothing more than what the world has come to expect from this sort. The allegations contained are mere boiler plate claims that revisionist efforts have stripped bare. Treblinka has been unravelled in all ways. From the lack of physical evidence, lack of documents, to the quacky nature of the it's "eyewitnesses".

Obvious by it's absence, and what is the final death blow against the cited bit of propaganda, is the fact that we see do not see mentioned the massacre of thousands Polish officers by the communists at Katyn. Given the very emphasis on 'Poles' and things 'Polish', we should expect to see this crime mentioned straight away. But clearly those involved in writing this text wanted to obscure that fact, they wanted to sanitize and promote Zionism and communism at any costs. They were not interested in honesty.
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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:48 am)

Hi Charles: Yes it's good to post stuff you find, and get input from the forum.

If you go the the Eichmann Trial transcripts you get a glimpse of Berman pulling his child-related psychological stunts. He had a "Give the children some joy" program in the Warsaw ghetto.

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:49 am)

Here is the 'official report' on Treblinka:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpoltreb1.htm

They also made the claim that they "found the ashes"...

more:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpolindex.htm

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:16 am)

Hektor:

Their saying so doesn't make it so. This communist 'German Crimes in Poland. Published by the Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland. Warsaw, 1946' is a sham of absurd proportions. There is no evidence for anything they claim. And note that evidence cannot be shown.

At the present time no traces of it are left, except for the cellar passage with the protruding remains of burnt posts, the foundations of the administration building, and the old well. Here and there can also be traced the remains of burnt fence posts and pieces of barbed wire, and short sections of paved road. There are also other traces. For example, in the north-eastern part, over a surface covering about 2 ha. (5 acres),
p.97
there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues.

As a result of an examination made by an expert it was found that ashes were the remains of burnt human bones.

So then, why don't we see these alleged remains? What expert? Where's his verifiable forensic report? Where are the photos of what we be enormously important, if true?

Remember, the story now says that ca. 900,000 Jews were buried in an enormous pit. Think football's Rose Bowl capacity X 10. No such pit has ever been shown to exist.

more here:
''German Crimes in Poland' online ... really'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1911

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby neugierig » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:02 pm)

Quote:
“[…]For example, in the north-eastern part, over a surface covering about 2 ha. (5 acres),
p.97
there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues[…]”

This is from the report written by the ‘investigating’ judge Lukaszkiewicz, entered as evidence by the soviets in Nürnberg as document # URSS-344.

Lukaszkiewicz claims to have taken a competent surveyor, Trautsolt, along to survey the camp area. He did, or so we are told, and came up with a total of 13.45 ha, just over 33 acres.

What is strange is, on the map Trautsolt made, his ‘North’ is actually East. I have worked with surveyors and find it really hard to believe that a mistake like that can be made by a competent surveyor, they are usually meticulous to a fault.

This then throws the whole description out of kilter, because on the north-eastern part, referred to in the report, trees are standing, as can be seen on the surveillance photos of Mai- and September 1944. The report then goes on to say that in the south-west part of the camp, utensils were found. Going by Trautsolts directions, south-east is where, according to the surveillance photos, some buildings can be seen. And this was the administration part of the camp, when looking at other drawings/sketches, where all kinds of buildings were erected.

But when looking at the real south-west part of the camp, this was, again according to maps/sketches, the sorting area. So it would be the place to find pots and pans. But, why did Trautsolt mix this up?

Also, there is a new map out, compiled by a Alex Bay, from THHP, claiming the camp to be 21 ha (52 acres), instead of the 13.45 ha measured by Trautsolt. Also, the Totenlager, the part where the killing and burial took place, allegedly, has been enlarged considerably on this new map.

What strikes me funny is, surely the Germans didn’t roll up the actual camp and took it with them when they left, so why not go and measure? Bay bases his new findings on the interpretation of the surveillance photos, doing some dangerous mental gymnastics. But why, jus take a surveyor and go and measure.

The story is getting curiouser and curiouser.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:35 pm)

Yes, they found pots and pans. But any cache of shoes mentioned? No.

Berman was so into using his phd in Psychology to tell psychological whoppers that he has to use kids' shoes in his story.

It's formulaic. A similar story is in the Nuremberg transcripts where a supposed Auschwitz inmate saw hundreds of baby strollers.

That's how CENTOS storymakers work.

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Postby neugierig » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:14 pm)

Over at the other forum, the name can not be mentioned here, I had a discussion about Treblinka with a believer. The videos, also discussed here about grave sizes etc., brought it on and I decided to take a closer look.

The whole thing left me baffled and I had hoped for some input from members of this forum. Here’s my problem.

Mattogno/Graf, in their “Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp?” write:

Quote:
“As far as the shape and size of the camp is concerned, one may regard the plans of the camp mentioned above as reliable, since firstly they were drawn by a professional surveyor on the basis of measurements done at the site, and secondly, they correspond well to the aerial photographs. One can therefore accept them as a standard for comparison for all plans, which were drawn earlier or later by ex-prisoners of the camp or based upon their descriptions[…]”

With all due respect to the authors, I disagree. Although Mattogno/Graf acknowledge that the surveyor, Trautsolt, mixed up directions, they still write the above. But, when comparing Trautsolts drawing with the air surveillance photos and keeping “North” where it is marked on all, the drawing/photos do not correspond. Even when assuming Trautsolt erred in determining North, there is little resemblance. The real south side is much longer on the plan, compared to the photos and the West- and East sides are longer on the photo.

Did Lukaszkiewicz dig at the transit camp and did Trautsolt survey it? Or are we being shown two different camps?

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Wilf

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:30 pm)

But, when comparing Trautsolts drawing with the air surveillance photos and keeping “North” where it is marked on all, the drawing/photos do not correspond. Even when assuming Trautsolt erred in determining North, there is little resemblance. The real south side is much longer on the plan, compared to the photos and the West- and East sides are longer on the photo.

One possibility: The air photos were apparently taken at an angle, so that the east- and west sides of the camp may appear distorted.

It may also be the result of a well known optical illusion: the dimensions in the distance seem to be shorter compared with distances close by. Look at your living room ceiling: allthough perfectly square, the ceiling edge close by seem to be longer than the distant edge.

»To date not a single person has produced evidence that proves these huge chemical slaughterhouses ever existed.
What has been done, though, is to stifle debate on this contentious historical matter by developing laws that criminalise those individuals who courageously ask:
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Postby neugierig » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:40 am)

Thanks, Bergmann.

But I do know about optical illusions, i.e., things in the distance looking smaller. We had to draw sketches in school, showing the distortions.

But this still doesn’t explain these huge discrepancies. Also, I’m having a hard time believing a competent surveyor could get his directions wrong. One of the basic tool of his trade is a compass.

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Wilf

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:52 am)

It is definitely incorrect to assume, that Holocaust revisionists are always right and infallible with their work and assumptions and never make mistakes. That is definitely not so.

When I read through revisionist material, I find often errors or mistakes. Or I may believe that there are mistakes.

Rudolf was always quite flexible and had an open mind. Others behave sometimes like little primadonnas. I had actually good experience exchanging ideas with most of the well known revisionists.

Looking at the air photos of Treblinka, Documents 10 and 11 in Mattogno’s Treblinka book, the camp borders certainly appear out of shape and seem to not agree with the surveyors map. The air photos in the book are from John C. Ball. Maybe he has an explanation.

I would trust the surveyor’s map more, even if he got the north/south direction wrong. Most geographical maps I am familiar with show “north” up on the top and the “south” on the bottom. Trautsolt may have just followed this standard on his sketch without thinking.

The basic tool for a surveyor is actually the theodolite.

“A theodolite is an instrument for measuring both horizontal and vertical angles, as used in triangulation networks. It is a key tool in surveying and engineering work.” (Source: Wiki)

In the case of the Treblinka camp, a surveyor would mark the corner points of the camp area with some visible stakes, two reference points with a known distance outside the camp, then measure with the theodolite the angles from the reference points and calculate accurately the borderlines of the area in question.
:D

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:41 pm)

I checked it out on John C. Ball’s site.
http://www.air-photo.com/english/loadeng.html
Using the railroad line to Treblinka I as a refernce (The railroad tracks border the camp on the left side), Ball’s drawings are in agreement with the air photos:

http://www.air-photo.com/grap/trebarea.gif
http://www.air-photo.com/grap/may1944.jpg
http://www.air-photo.com/grap/sept1944.jpg

Looking again at Trautsolt’s surveyor maps documents 7 to 10 in Mattogno’s Treblinka book, and using the railroad track to Treblinka I as a reference on the left side of the camp, the camp shapes appear all to be in agreement.
:D

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But his most controversial challenge to world Jewry is an attack on the article of faith held by Jews and gentiles throughout the West -- that the Holocaust was a unique event that cannot be compared with anything else in history. This belief, argues Finkelstein, which few people dare to challenge, is ruthlessly being used by Jews to justify Israel's appalling human rights record and create an environment of fear where nobody, either in academia or politics, can discuss the Holocaust honestly and rationally.«

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Postby neugierig » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:14 pm)

Bergmann:
“The basic tool for a surveyor is actually the theodolite.”

Not to belabour the point unnecessarily, just one more remark. I said that a compass is one of the basic surveying tool, and it is. I’ve never worked with a theodolite, but with its ‘smaller’ brother, the transit. So I do know a little about the subject and one of the first things surveyors do is establish north. This is why this Trautsolt mistake makes no sense to me. We have to remember that we are talking about the Holocaust were impossibilities are stated as fact. This is why I’m wondering if Lukaszkiewicz and Co looked at the right spot.

Looking at the map drawn by Ball, which corresponds to the surveillance photographs, and using Balls scale, the measurements are not even close to those given by Trautsolt. Trautsolt gives 1:2000 as a scale for his map. I used the east-side for a starting point, that is, measured it and took that measurement to be 376.5 m, the actual number supplied by Trautsolt. Continuing, I found that all other measurements come very close to the actual measurements he provides, i.e., (using the correct directions, correct measurements in brackets) east-side is 376.5 m, south-side 470 m (471.5) west-side 487 m (490) and north-side 238 m (240). This is all within a few meters, I just did some rough scaling. Using other starting points the figures differ slightly, but are always within a few meters either way.

Using Ball scale we get for the east-side 298 m (376.5), south-side 324 m (471.5), west-side 344 m (490) and the north-side 155 m (240). Huge discrepancies, this is apparent when comparing the photos with the Trautsolt drawing.

As mentioned before, an Alex Bay, from THHP, tried to do some damage control. In his article “The Reconstruction of Treblinka” he also provides a map, based on the surveillance photos, complete with scale. When using his scale and comparing the numbers with those given by Trautsolt, same mess, not even close.

My point: We only have Trautsolts measurements. But, they don’t even come close to a match when comparing them to the photos.

What gives? Are we being lied to? Hard to believe.

And now I’m outta here, since this has nothing to do with the actual subject matter.

Regards
Wilf

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:14 pm)

Ball’s drawing is in my opinion just a handsketch based on the air photos and prepared for purposes of illustration only. I don’t believe that one can make an accurate surveyor plan from those air photos.

On what all drawings and air photos seem to agree is that the camp borders on one side against the railroad track to Treblinka I and that this track is merging with the main railroad track to Malkinia.

So even if the Polish surveyor Trautsolt should have made mistakes with his measurements and calculations (which I cannot check), the odd irregular rectangle shape on all depictions are similar and the location between the two converging railroad tracks seems to be the same.

The main problem with this camp are the missing human remains of 900,000 Jews (or whatever number is in vogue now) who were according to the IMT steamed to death, electrocuted, vacuumed and poisoned with diesel engine exhaust fumes.

At this point the hoaxers on the other board usually invite me to show them what happened to these people.
The Nazis ran over 10,000 [ten thousand] concentration camps, subcamps,
ghettos, and work camps. http://www.jewishgen.org/Forgottencamps ... psEng.html
Here is a map of some of the ghettos and camps in eastern Poland and western Russia:

Image

When I indicated that the Jews were shipped from Treblinka and other transit camps to these places, all hell breaks loose: We want to see photos and documents.

But where are the photos and documents of people entering the Treblinka camp (or for that matter for any other camp) in the first place?

»For those who believe that the Nuremberg Trials revealed the truth about German war crimes, it is a terrible shock to discover that the then Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, Harlan Fiske Stone, described the Nuremberg court as "a high-grade lynching party" for Germans (Alpheus T. Mason, Harlan Fiske Stone: Pillar of the Law, New York: Viking, 1956, p. 716).«


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