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Tom
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Postby Tom » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:51 pm)

Bergmann wrote:I don’t believe that the Jewish Holocaust can be considered as a religion.


Hi Bergmann,

I find it most remarkable, in a revisionist forum, that no one will
address the simple undisputed fact that "The Holocaust" is being
integrated into mainstream religion, in churches, universities, divinity
schools and universities, in America and Europe.

Your, mine or any private opinion on whether 'The Holocaust' can be
considered as a religion is completely irrelevant.

The Christian religion is being hijacked for the benefit of the Holocaust
promoters and there are some Christian preachers and courageous
people who have the honesty and courage to speak out loudly about this.

I greatly admire them for their honesty and courage.

I am very sad that only a few Christians seem to have the courage to do so.

Tom

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:11 pm)

ASMarques says:
I criticize going ecstatic over the Iranian regime and showering public praise on its political / religious aspects. I feel a mutual interest in exposing the "Holocaust" sham doesn't call for Western revisionists who want an end to mandatory religious orthodoxy at home to act as cheerleaders for Islamic theocracies abroad. Besides being in bad taste, it's also bad morals and bad public relations.

Oh come on ASM, will you please relax with that stuff. No one is 'acting as a cheerleader for Islamic theocracies'. You dislike religions, any and all. We get it already.

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Postby SAS » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:38 pm)

ASMarques wrote:
SAS wrote:Iran is right now probably the most revisionist-friendly country in the world. Why not take advantage of it?


A quick reply:

I don't criticize "taking advantage". I criticize going ecstatic over the Iranian regime and showering public praise on its political / religious aspects. I feel a mutual interest in exposing the "Holocaust" sham doesn't call for Western revisionists who want an end to mandatory religious orthodoxy at home to act as cheerleaders for Islamic theocracies abroad. Besides being in bad taste, it's also bad morals and bad public relations.


I think you're being a bit theatrical. I have seen no one "going ecstatic" over Iranian regime. Naturally many people are excited when a head of state makes remarks like Mr Ahmadinejad, because it's a major brakethrough for revisionism. This is a huge step forward and should be applauded. It's also a fact that in many ways, Iran is more free than any Western country, especially from a revisionist point of view. In my opinion we should clean our own backyard first and only then criticize others.

Assuming you've been following the impressive reaction of hostility from nearly all Western quarters to David Irving, let me put back to you a similar question, concerning our own societies:

"If the Holocaust cult is what the majority of people over here want, why not let us have it?"

I know the answer. Do you?


Firstly, I don't think that majority of the Western people agree with the Holocaust denial laws. Even the mainstream newspapers, the biggest sycophants of the Holocaustianity, are publishing articles that say Irving should be released. Most of the people seem appalled by Irving's imprisonment. If you think most of the people in countries that have Holocaust denial laws really want it, please cite evidence for it.

Secondly, I'd hardly equate Shariah law with Holocaust denial laws.

Thirdly, my main point still stands:

I didn't mean we should embrace their values, nor do I think we should lecture them about values. I'm just saying that revisionists come from all walks of life, from different backrounds and cultures. There are right wing revisionists, left wing revisionists, Atheist, Christian, Muslim and Jewish revisionists and I don't see a point of them bickering things unrelated to revisionism. Not right now. It's not like all Iranians are borg units who think alike and share the same vision about religion, politics and everything. They're all individuals. I think it's not prudent to turn our backs on them, whatever you think about the current Iranian regime.

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Postby SAS » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:40 pm)

ASMarques wrote:Incidentally to your appreciation of freedom in Iran, I suggested you should investigate their access to the Internert, the one and only lifeline of revisionism, possible only as long as the First Amendment will hold fast in the U.S.. Here is a few lines on the state of web access in Sha'arialand:
http://www.opennetinitiative.net/studies/iran/

"Iran's filtering regime is backed up by an extensive series of laws that control the publication of sensitive information. The press is restrained through a broad set of media-related laws, especially the Press Law of 1986, which includes licensing and substantive regulations. Individuals who subscribe to Internet service providers (ISPs) must promise in writing not to access "non-Islamic" sites. The law requires ISPs to install filtering mechanisms that cover access to both Web sites and e-mail. Punishment for violations of content-related laws can be harsh."


When I have time and when I feel like it, I will try to access certain sites through Iranian proxies to see if there's any truth to these claims.

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Postby Moderator3 » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:34 pm)

Just a note to remind everyone to stay on topic. We want this thread to relate to the alleged 'Holocaust', ramifications, etc.; not Islamic laws and Iranian customs.
M3

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:17 pm)

SAS wrote:It's also a fact that in many ways, Iran is more free than any Western country, especially from a revisionist point of view. In my opinion we should clean our own backyard first and only then criticize others.


Please speak for yourself, if you feel that way about any collective backyard you may be speaking out of. My backyard is clean and I reserve the right to speak as I see fit in my own name.

I resent your "especially from a revisionist point of view" in the context of a society being "more free" (as you say), except from a strictly utilitarian point of view, which somehow I feel is not exactly what you're driving at. If you mean a given censorship-driven Sha'aria-based society that does not target "Holocaust" revisionists may be more useful to the purpose of destroying censorship in general, than others that do, I agree. However, if you mean it should also be more agreeable to them, and presented by them as a paragon of moral virtue comparatively to the Western countries, as some people I mentioned seem to think, I don't agree with you or them.

I happen to think revisionist individuals in general have a lot to teach to, not to learn from, censorship-driven societies. But, of course, revisionists come in many varieties and for many different reasons. I wish this damned censorship would be over, once and for all, and we might be able to open the hostilities, the old ones that never change!

My point is made. For my part, this is where I close the debate on the topic.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:30 pm)

Well then, this thread certainly proves that Revisionist activists do not form a monolithic mindset.

As Bradley Smith once told me:
"Getting Revisionists to agree on everything is like trying to herd cats".

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:38 pm)

Just to wrap up some glossed over points, before departing to other threads...

****** SAS ******

SAS wrote:
ASMarques wrote:Assuming you've been following the impressive reaction of hostility from nearly all Western quarters to David Irving, let me put back to you a similar question, concerning our own societies:

"If the Holocaust cult is what the majority of people over here want, why not let us have it?"

I know the answer. Do you?


Firstly, I don't think that majority of the Western people agree with the Holocaust denial laws. Even the mainstream newspapers, the biggest sycophants of the Holocaustianity, are publishing articles that say Irving should be released. Most of the people seem appalled by Irving's imprisonment. If you think most of the people in countries that have Holocaust denial laws really want it, please cite evidence for it.


Nowhere did I claim that "most of the people in countries that have Holocaust denial laws really want it". What I was saying was most people that speak out against or for denial laws seem to want the "Holocaust cult" in place, a very different claim.

As I have said before, a crushing majority of those who seemed apalled by Irving's imprisonment followed their protests by reciting the usual "Holocaust" religious credo and wishing that somehow Irving & fellow revisionists got lost and never seen again.

Therefore, my (ironic) reply to you, duplicating the question you put to me implying totalitarian or ignorant societies that look like they want censorship and general oppression imposed on them, should really be legitimised in their overruling individuals among them who don’t, stands unanswered. No problem anyway. I'm not asking for a reply to a rethorical question. We both seem to know where we stand, and I certainly don't favor the idiotic Bush policy of "democratic conversion" through bombing. All Islamic societies require is more time and less Israel (not the same as active encouragement to go back to the political Middle Ages).

****** Radar ******

Radar wrote:[...] your insistence on venting your village atheist views which you apparently somehow relate to revisionism is going to drive away non-atheists [...]


I don't know where you got the idea that I am an "atheist", much less a "village atheist". I have nowhere mentioned any particular philosophical inclinations of mine. I did imply blind belief through faith & religion -- definitions provided in one of my posts -- deprives one of reason, the means of judgement we are provided with. The relation to such things as the miraculous gas chambers narratives of the Holocaust cult, should be obvious to anyone except village, shall we say, believers (?).

****** Hannover ******

Hannover wrote:Oh come on ASM, will you please relax with that stuff. No one is 'acting as a cheerleader for Islamic theocracies'. You dislike religions, any and all. We get it already.


I don't think you got my essential point: as long as people will refuse to see the true nature of the phenomenon, they won't be able to pin down what it is that others, with no direct interest in the matter or any axe to grind, may find so attractive in it.

If you want to explain, say, to a Christian why "Holocausters" function the way they function -- I have no doubt the vast masses of believers are genuine -- you should ask him why are Christian miracles any different from Holocaustian miracles.

Most revisionists still think of the "Holocaust" cult as a sort of small, intrinsically Jewish, plot that will come tumbling down the instant the rug will be pulled from under it. They miss the fact they are facing a world class religion, in fact the first religion with a truly ecumenical following.

Alas, people in general -- and most revisionists, like anyone else -- love their irrational illusions and detest those that point them out to them as such. The net result may be different strategies -- maybe more insistence in civil rights, rather than appeals to reason and immediate conversion that will be invariably seen as sinful and irrelevant -- should be in order to face what I called a world class religion. That's all there is to it. Amen.

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Postby vincentferrer » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:10 am)

Tom brings up some outstanding points.

I think the greatest victory to date for the hoaxsters, is they have inserted this hoax into the school circiculum under the guise of history and preventing hate. It is not really history and it spreads hate.

But....it cannot be attacked head on.

If you try it head on, you will endure a societal penalty worse than hatemonger, you will be seen as a radioactive type person.
People you thought were your friends will distance themselves from you in a heartbeat.

The type of information that will weaken the holocasut financial scheme, which is ALSO a LARGE PART of the scam, will be by exposing the money trail. If it can be shown that the money is not going to survivors, but to banks, real estate investments, and maybe even into illicit areas, that will bring international media attention and questions about the ethical behavior of the money changers.

If it can be shown the money is being used for sex, or bribery etc... then you have people's attention. What if some was being used to finance a porn ring or terrorism.

the history of the Russain Khazars, so called Jews, from Russia, ( and holocaust mania is a russian operation) is they have a well documented history of involvement in criminal enterprises, dating at least to 1890.
But in time somone gets too greedy, sloppy or is betrayed and speaks out.

In time, this has to happen and on a large scale.

Until then think of the Holocaust education you do for others, as you would a fishing expedition I think of it as Holocasut fishing.

Provide every relative, friend and local pastor with a copy of the David Cole DVD. Ask for their opinion :wink:

I also suggest keeping 10 copies of the book THE FIRST HOLOCAUST by Tom Heddesheimer in your car at all times.

The minute a person starts talking about the Holocaust, I ask if they ever heard abut the first Holocaust, ( bait) :wink: which brings a blank stare. I then give em a book. :D

It does wonders to thaw and loosen up many of their preconceived ideas about that second holocasut they have been hearing so much about.

The hook is this site. Bingo, one more enlightened revisionist. 8)
Next.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:28 am)

If it can be shown that the money is not going to survivors, but to banks, real estate investments ....

Point taken, but I think so called 'survivors' is in order here. What they survived was no more, and probably much less than millions of others during WWII. Another thread for that one though. Thanks.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Tom » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:55 am)

vincentferrer wrote:Tom brings up ...

I think the greatest victory to date for the hoaxsters, is they have
inserted this hoax into the school circiculum under the guise of history
and preventing hate.


vincentferier,

I did not write that the Holocaust is being taught as history. I have yet to
investigate the history courses. I assume it would be in every history text book.

I have been looking into The Holocaust being taught as a religious subject
in universities and divinity schools etc.

You can even find graduate school PHD Holocaust courses in Religious
and Theological Studies colleges.

They are preparing the future preachers and teachers to bring forth the
Holocaust theology to the trusting masses.

That is " the greatest victory to date for the hoaxsters"...

Integrating the Holocaust in to the dominate (Catholic and Protestant)
religion of the West.

A truly great victory ... accomplished through the use of a "Trojan Horse".


Tom

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Postby vincentferrer » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:48 pm)

Tom ,

I meant the hoaxsters are trying to make the hoax appear to be a major hisorical event, bigger than the civil war. They want it kept front and center when the topic comes to the era of world War 2.

The Jewish Ordeal of World War 2- is what they would like to to have people believe is THE EVENT of that period. Little details, like Battle of the Bulge are not REALLY important for students to know in the world of holocaustmania.

In California, the Catholic schools must teach the holocasut.
Typically, it will be a English class course, which will devote about 3 weeks to having the class read a book and write a report on it.
It is also embedded into the religion books.

In fact, the Religion book I reviewed, has what it claims is a picture of Elie Wiesel , the famous one where he claims the 40 yr old man with a beard and balding head, in the corner of the picture , is him when he was in Buchenwald. The book says that was Elie when he was in AUSCHWITZ !


I think a fund should be established for the like of the David Fabers of the world.


A huge amount offered for passing a lie detector test !

That is not disturbing ' SACRED ground" nor is it perfomring forensic examinations on bodies.

I am not sure how a person, telling the truth would find any objection to submitting to just such a test.

With nothing to lose and everything to gain, it is one more plank that can be pulled from the tower of lies.

A lie detector test, is not holocaust denial or even revsionisism, it is ONLY calling into question the truthfuulness of the hoaxsters claims.

If Faber can recall the Nazi's placing a RED HOT POKER into his brother's eye, he can surely recall details about dumping Zyklon-B into the gus chumbar.

The survivors in general need to be asked the question, Will you submit to a lie detector test ?

If the police and other agencies in search of the truth can pursue such actions, why not others who seek the truth ?






In fact, it is a minor footnote, at best.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:44 pm)

Just to get off the religion theme (phew!) it is certainly true that the Holocaust as a matter in the US schools is NOT taught as a subject of history. If it was there would have to be discussion of the actual claims (number of victims, gas chamber stories, diesel stories, etc.) and pretty soon the whole thing would start to sound fishy as there are always some curious and intelligent students in the class. No, the subject is approached always from the standpoint that "everything had been established beyond a shadow of doubt and don't ask or you're an anti-Semite. Didn't you hear the 'survivor' who spoke last week? Shame on you for asking!" This succeeds in scaring off the few souls who have doubts.

I witnessed this personally when I tried to challenge a school curriculum from outside and was brushed aside as a troublemaker.

I don't know how to overcome this and it should be discussed more here.

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Postby Tom » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:25 pm)

vincentferrer wrote:Tom ,

I meant the hoaxsters are trying to make the
hoax appear to be a major hisorical event.

In California, the Catholic schools must teach the holocasut.

vincentferrer,

Thank you for the note on the Catholic schools.

The Holocaust is not only being promoted as a historical event...
.... But as theologic event as well.

Then, with the backing of the churches, it is being used as a justification
for the uncritical support of Israel and to silence any and all revisionists.

And it not being promoted by only the 'usual suspects' that are all too familiar to us all.

From the chruch(s) highest leadership on down to the local level it is being
integrated into the Christian religion and fed to the people who fill the pews.

Those many of millions of people in the pews will shortly become the
biggest obstacle to revisionists getting a fair hearing. Revisionists will be
viewed in the same light as the people that , in the past, said that Christ
never existed.

The most visible and noisiest Holocaust promoters are not really the most
dangerous ones.

A religion, known to many as Holocaustianity is being 'born'.

I hope that all revisionists become fully aware of this. Facing reality is the
best way to make successful plans for the future.

Here is a quote that I thinks sums up what I have encountered as I search
through the many denominations:


The modern Jewish perspective on God has become influential with
Christians since the Holocaust literature has become prominent in
seminaries and an official ecumenical relationship has been formed
between Christian Church leaders and American Jewish Rabbis.



Tom

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Postby vincentferrer » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:24 pm)

I posted earlier on this site, that on January 27, 2006 I attended a Jewish synagogue to listen to a talk on Nostra Aetate.

Nostra Aetate is a Vatican II document that Jews claim lets them off the hook for killing Jesus. Not True. Much to my surpirse, a Catholic priest was invited to give the talk to more than 200 Jews in their synagogue during THEIR Friday night service.

He gave what I would call a even handed talk, which means he placed some of the blame for the present obstacles betweeen Jews and Catholic on the shoulders of the Jews. Those sitting near me, did not like it one bit.

But the key point is, on this so called " Holocaust Rememberance Day"
not one single word about the holocaust was uttered.

I cannot explain it.

My best guess is they see the Holocasut as a commercial venture, ( and it is big business) which must be ingrained into the GOY, in order to extract the money they seek.


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