Warsaw Ghetto: help needed.

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polardude
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Warsaw Ghetto: help needed.

Postby polardude » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:03 am)

Hello, I have long been a devoted reader of your website, but have finally compelled to "join the fray" due to fact I am a lot of trouble in a debate.

I have been challenged by this girl over the number of Jews who died in the Warsaw Ghetto (as opposed transported to Treblinka II and other sites). She wishes to visit the mass grave sites so that she can beg forgiveness on behalf of the German Volk.

The figures she uses are based on those contained in the Stroop report and the Ringelblum archive.
The Stroop reports mentions around 13 000 killed in the liquidation of the archive in April 1943.
And the Ringelblum archive contains monthly death tolls up to July 1942 that amount to between 70-80 000 deaths. With an unknown number for the eight months until the end of that archive and liquidation.

What happened to those bodies? Did Jewish custom permit cremation? Are they to be found buried in mass graves in Warsaw today? Are there sites that can be visited?

Are the figures quoted genuine? Can anyone help one girl realise her dream to honor the dead of the Warsaw Ghetto?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:44 am)

Where is she going to go? There are no mass graves. A rather large problem for the Big Lie.
There is zero evidence they were murdered rather than relocated.
The Ringelblum material is from communist propaganda sources, cannot be supported by evidence.
It's all so typical.

see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=438
Telegramm by Stroop dated 24th May 1943

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1281
1943 Warsaw 'uprising' debunked by French professor

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Tom » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:29 am)

polardude wrote: She wishes to visit the mass grave sites so that she can beg forgiveness on behalf of the German Volk.


Hello polardude,

Please do not take this as an irreverent question.

Who is the entity she begging forgiveness from? God? The Jewish people?
If she has not yet indicated this perhaps you could ask her and let me know
her answer.

I ask this in all sincerity.

Tom

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:43 pm)

Simon1003,
Your last post was deleted. Regardless of polardude's background, he's welcomed to post here in accordance with our guidelines. Please do not behave like you claim he does. Let the discussion be judged by the content of the posts.
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Postby polardude » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:19 pm)

Tom, my friend is very religious, I haven't questioned her on the exact theological nature of her desire. But you certainly has a very strong desire to visit the 100 000 Jewish mass graves in the Warsaw Ghetto.

Simon, I am sorry that you have some issues with me, feel free to discuss them, no strings and no holds, via personal message.

Hannover,

I am curious. I have read works that claim that the Ringelbaum archive documented monthly death tolls for the Ghetto and these, even though incomplete with the final months missing, total around 80 000.

Do you believe this archive or parts of it are a fabrication?

Consider, if we had a Ghetto of 400 000, with an peacetime deathrate of 1.7 % over about 3.5 years one would expect at least 20 000 deaths. So presumably these bodies must be able to be located?

Or has the entire Ghetto story been entirely mythologised?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:08 am)

Well polardude, you haven't told us what you find convincing about the Ringelblum archive materials, please do. Please cite specifics, sources of the alleged info. within it, and give us evidence for your claimed numbers (what ever they are*) to it back it all up. Physical evidence will be requested of course.

*I note you move from 80,000 to 20,000, yet you previously mentioned an alleged mass grave of 100,000. What's it going to be?

Plus you ignored the links I gave you to previously threads on the subject. Why?

Please, no strawmen; there was a Warsaw ghetto. So what? There were also Allied concentration camps, there were Communist gulags for Christians.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby polardude » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:43 pm)

Hannover, can I first say how refreshing I find your scepticism.

you haven't told us what you find convincing about the Ringelblum archive materials, please do. Please cite specifics, sources of the alleged info. within it, and give us evidence for your claimed numbers (what ever they are*) to it back it all up. Physical evidence will be requested of course.


Actually physical evidence is just what I am asking about. The documentary evidence seems very clear - but the location of the physical evidence seems difficult to locate. This is what my friend wants assistance with.

Here is a source
ed. J. Noakes and G. Pridham, Nazism 1919-1945, vol. 3 (Foreign Policy, War and Racial Extermination), University of Exeter Press, Exeter: 1988, p. 1070 has a chart giving monthly death figures for the Warsaw Ghetto, as follows:

1941

Jan 898
Feb 1,023
Mar 1,608
Apr 2,061
May 3,821
Jun 4,290
Jul 5,550
Aug 5,560
Sept 4,545
Oct 4,716
Nov 4,801
Dec 4,239

1942

Jan 5,123
Feb 4,618
Mar 4,951
Apr 4,432
May 3,636
Jun 3,356

The source given is ed. T. Berenstein, et al., Faschismus-Getto-Massenmord, Dokumentation über Ausrottung und Widerstand der Juden in Polen währenddes zweiten Weltkrieges, Frankfurt: n.d., p. 138.


I understand this is derived from the Ringelblum archive, where (apparantly) very definite monthly death tolls were given.

This entire list adds up to exactly 69 228. Note how ever that the period of late 1939 and all of 1940 are missing. As are the months from July 1942 to April 1943. Add this to the 13000 that are documented as killed in the Stroop report I have made an estimate of at least 100 000. However, I would welcome any correction on this regard.

The other figure of 20 000 was my estimate of what a Ghetto of the size traditionally stated would produce over a 3.5 year period.

At the moment the only number of graves that I can locate is less than a 1000 for this period to be found in the central Jewish cemetery.

I am simply endeavouring to locate the balance. Whether in mass graves or individual graves I am not particularly concerned.

All help in this regard much apreciated.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:37 am)

polardude,

You cite claimed 'deaths' which are not substantiated in any way. People claim human soap too.

In fact you give a source that is not the original material from the claimed Ringelblum Archives, that will never do.

The authors of the book you cite produce a chart which claims deaths without showing the original, source material. How typical of the entire 'holocau$t' scam that is. What is being hid from scrutiny here?

Why can't you produce the original material?

Why haven't the shysters who make this absurd claim produced the original source material instead of making a bogus chart?

And you also make a claim about The Stroop Report which you cannot substantiate, and you ignored my reference to a thread dealing with it, why?

You said:
At the moment the only number of graves that I can locate is less than a 1000 for this period to be found in the central Jewish cemetery.

Well then, there you have it.

You have provided no evidence for your claimed 'death' numbers. In fact I have directed you to rebuttals, but alas, you ignore them. Please at least try or this thread is over as fast as it began.

The numbers you claim are a lie, plain and simple. The lack of evidence makes that clear.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:57 am)

Hi Polardude,

I see what you're asking and I can't really answer. But permit me to comment on a few things:

I don't know much about the ghetto, or if even the word "ghetto" is part of the propaganda. There was a Jewish sector in Warsaw, and people were taken from there and shipped East. The Jewish propagandists, first and foremost likely being Adolf Berman of CENTOS, wanted the Jews to resist deportation, so they told the Jews they were being taken to their deaths. This had a lot to do with why an uprising happened. The Jewish propaganda from above, had worked on the Jews: Rather than being sent to the gas chambers, they decided to fight. Little did they know they weren't being sent to the gas chambers.

The Ringelblum archive is something I'd like to know more about, but I'm pretty sure it's a fraud. The reason I think this is that Rachel Auerbach is closely associated with it, and she's obviously a fraud. Reading "In the Fields of Treblinka" makes that clear.

Look at the ridiculousness of the assertion: they buried part of the archive, but in a way where they couldn't find it themselves after the war. LOL. A Polish Construction worker stumbled upon it in 1950. How ridiculous.

And in this newly discovered archive was the account of Abraham Krzepicki, written in Harry Potter literary style, that didn't have any of the same mistakes that wartime accounts had. Imagine that. Why? Because those liars probably wrote in in 1949, and then placed it where some construction worker was going to dig. And even then it's ridiculous. Krzepicki probably didn't even exist!

Saying something was written and lost, only to be found again, is a good way to get your facts straight in hindsight. LOL.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:14 am)

What 'uprising'?
Edelman also stated that the number of Jews who took up arms never exceeded 220. (Other estimates of the number of Jewish ghetto fighters range from several hundred to as many as 2,000. In any case, no more than a minute portion of the ghetto population took part in the fighting.) [4]

Marek Edelman, who was a leader of one of the armed Jewish groups in the ghetto.

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1281

But you said:
The figures she uses are based on those contained in the Stroop report and the Ringelblum archive.
The Stroop reports mentions around 13 000 killed in the liquidation of the archive in April 1943.
And the Ringelblum archive contains monthly death tolls up to July 1942 that amount to between 70-80 000 deaths. With an unknown number for the eight months until the end of that archive and liquidation.


So polardude, your numbers are fantasy and obviously impossible.

We know many Jews were deported from the 'ghetto', but that is not what you're really claiming. Or is it?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:25 am)

I think Polardude is probably a good, well-meaning guy. The problem is this fraud called the "Ringelblum archives." I just looked it up at holocaust encyclopedia at the US holocaust memorial museum website, and it's such a lie that even there they barely mention it and speak about it cryptically.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:30 am)

I'm sure he's a lovely man. But 'well meaning' has nothing to do with it. He makes assertions, wants to debate, he's at the right forum.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Rashid Metwan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:02 am)

I don't think there's a conflict here necessarily. While the 'Ringelbaum Archives' are probably bogus even if they were true it doesn't negate what Hannover says about the number of Jews in the 'resistance'. From the exterminationists' point of view, they would simply say that not all the Jews who were supposedly killed were in the resistance.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:07 am)

From the exterminationists' point of view, they would simply say that not all the Jews who were supposedly killed were in the resistance.

Is that what they say? If so, they again will need evidence.
Polardude himself said:
At the moment the only number of graves that I can locate is less than a 1000 for this period to be found in the central Jewish cemetery.


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:14 am)

One thing this thread touches on is something I really believe: in order to really know the holocaust hoax, you have to know a lot about Warsaw. All the zionist politics that were there. What the Germans really tried to do there. What the Jews say the Germans tried to do there.

To believe in the Ringelblum archives, you have to believe that the first escapee out of Treblinka, Abraham Krzepicki, (way before Yankel Wiernik!) went back to Warsaw after escaping, to work with a Ringelblum staffer, Rachel Auerbach, not to get the message out to newspapers and abroad, but to write a Harry Potter style novel of Krzepicki's experience. Never released during the war, but later found in 1950 by a Polish construction worker. LOL.

Even Hilberg's Destruction of the European Jews barely mentions these bogus archives.


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