Laws of nature undo Holocaust story

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TMoran
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Laws of nature undo Holocaust story

Postby TMoran » 1 decade 7 years ago (Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:43 pm)

The conclusion of this treatment is that according to the Holocaust story's own numbers and descriptions a Holocaust body could be cremated with a quantity of wood barely the size of two 12 inch pieces of 2 x 4s.

So say the laws of nature.

Part I. The documented Holocaust nonsense.

=============================

BEHOLD!

UTTER NONSENSE

From the book "Escape From Sobibor" by Richard Rashke
- Houghton Mifflin Company, 1982

"To make Sobibor run still more smoothly, the Nazis built a
high-powered generator that provided enough light so that they could
gas Jews at night, and a small train with dump cars like those used to
haul coal in the mines south of Krakow. ... The miners' train toted
suitcases from the boxcars to the sorting sheds, bundles of clothes
from the warehouses to the empty cars sitting on the spur inside the
camp, wood to Camp III, and corpses from the gas chambers to the
burial pits.

...

Up to late summer, the bodies of the gassed Jews were buried in mass
graves two hundred feet long, thirty to forty-five feet wide, and
fifteen to twenty feet deep. Covered with lime, the corpses would
swell six to ten feet in the sun like mounds of dough. Once the gas
from decomposition was released, they would sink back down, and the
Jews would cover them with dirt. The Nazis found that burying the
corpses caused three major problems.

The summer of 1942 was one of the hottest on record, ... Furthermore,
the water table at Sobibor, only a few miles from the Bug River, was
high. After the snow melted in the spring, the southern tip
of the camp just outside the fences turned into a swamp. ...

So the Nazis dragged in a steam shovel and forced the Camp III Jews to
dig up and burn all the corpses. The Jews stacked them like sacks of
rotten potatoes on train tracks resting on concrete pillars. Then they
sloshed the mounds with gasoline or kerosene and set fire to the wood
piled underneath. They worked in crews around the clock. ...
(Rashke, (52-53)

=============================

[[ The vital components there would be:

Buried in water soaked mass graves, summer was one of hottest on
record, covered with lime, bodies swelled up 6 to 10 feet like dough
then collapsed, rotting, steam shovel, train tracks. ]]

==============================

From Israeli writer Arad, 'The Rheinhard Camps; Belzec, Sobibor,
Treblinka'

"Franz Stangl, the commander of Sobibor and Treblinka, was stationed
in northern Italy, in the areas of Fiume and Udine, from the autumn of
1943 and engaged in actions against partisans and local Jews. After
the war he escaped to Brazil; in 1967 he was discovered there,
arrested, and extradited to the Federal Republic of Germany. He was
tried in Dusseldorf in 1970 and was sentenced to life imprisonment. He
died in prison a few months after the end of the trial."

Stangl was sent to command Sobibor after construction fell behind
schedule in the Spring of 1942. His commanding officer sent him to
meet with Wirtz at Belzec, and he described his visit thus:

"When asked during his trial how many people could be murdered in one
day, Stangl answered:

Regarding the question of what was the optimum amount of
people gassed in one day, I can state: according to my
estimation a transport of thirty freight cars with 3,000
people was liquidated in three hours. When the work lasted
for about fourteen hours, 12,000 to 15,000 people were
annihilated. There were many days that the work lasted
from the early morning until the evening."

....The cremating structure consisted of a roaster made from five or
six railroad rails on top of three rows of concrete pillars each 70 cm
high. The facility was 30 meters wide. The bodies were removed from
the pits by an excavator. Stangl, the camp commander, relates:

"It must have been at the beginning of 1943. That's when
excavators were brought in. Using these excavators, the corpses were
removed from the huge ditches which had been used until then [for
burial]. ,,, The old corpses were burned on roasters, along with the new bodies of new arrivals to the camp]. ...

... The cremation took place in such a way that railway lines and
concrete blocks were placed together. The corpses were piled on these
rails. Brushwood was put under the rails. The wood was doused with
petrol. In that way not only the newly accumulated corpses were
cremated, but also those taken out from the graves.

...

After the cremation installation had been constructed, the process of
removing the bodies of the pits began. The work was initiated by a
single excavator; later, a second excavator was brought in. The
shovel's scoop removed six to eight corpses with each dip into the pit
and dumped them on the edge of the pit. A special team of prisoners,
working in twos, transferred the corpses to the crematorium on
stretchers. There, another special team, called the "burning group"
(_Feuerkolonne_), removed the corpses from the stretchers and arranged
them in layers on the roaster to a height of 2 meters. Between 2,000
and 2,500 bodies- sometimes up to 3,000 -would be piled on the
roaster. When all was ready, dry wood and branches, which had been
laid under the roaster, were ignited. The entire construction, with
the bodies, was quickly engulfed in fire. The railings would glow from
the heat, and the flames would reach a height of up to 10 meters.

At first flammable liquid was poured onto the bodies to help them
burn, but later this was considered unnecessary; the SS men in charge
of the cremation became convinced that the corpses burned well enough
without extra fuel.

The body-burning went on day and night. The corpses were transferred
and arranged on the roasters during the day; at nightfall they were
lit, and they burned through out the night. When the fire went out,
there were only skeletons and scattered bones on the roasters, and
piles of ash underneath. ...

[[ The points here are:

Five to six rail tracks on three rows of concrete pillars, 70cm high
(off the ground), the grid was 30 meters wide, excavators (steam
shovels), bodies piled on tracks, brushwood, 6 to 8 corpses removed
with each scoop, bodies stacked 2 meters high, dry wood and branches.
Skeletons and bones still on the grid after the fire went out, had to
be removed. ]]

========================


Part II. The third grade arithmetic that undoes the Holocaust nonsense.

Recap summary of pertinent 'facts':

The combination of tales tells us the bodies were first placed
in large pits dug in water soaked ground and covered over with lime, a
caustic material that accelerates decomposition. The bodies then swelled up 6 to 10 feet like "dough" and then collapsed. The mass was
then covered over by dirt. Then excavators were brought in to scoop
out the bodies later. They could take 6 to 8 bodies with each scoop.
This we must assume would have resulted in further mutilation of the
collapsed doughy, lime dissolved bodies with arms, legs and heads
being severed in the process. Whatever was remaining was transported
to the "roaster" and "arranged" on 3 parallel train rails on concrete
pillars running for 30 meters (97.5 feet) and 70cm (2.5 feet) off the
ground. After the fire went out skeletons and bones remained on the
tracks and had to be removed.

In order to arrive at how much wood would have been available to cremate each body we need to know how much wood the described space would have been able to hold and divide that by the number of bodies. We are given two absolute numbers, one for the height of the grill off the ground and the length of the grill. The one dimension we don't have is the width of the grill. But we do have common sense and we do have a description of the what condition the bodies would have been
in.


We reasonably conclude:
THE RAILS COULDN'T HAVE BEEN SO FAR APART THAT THE
PRE-CREMATED BODIES WOULD HAVE FALLEN THROUGH.

Further:
THE RAILS COULDN'T HAVE BEEN SO FAR APART THAT ANY
DISINTERGRATING REMAINS DURING CREMATION WOULD HAVE FALLEN THROUGH TO SMOTHER THE FIRE.

Further:
THE RAILS WOULD HAD TO HAVE BEEN CLOSE ENOUGH TO HOLD THE REMAINS SAID TO HAVE BEEN STILL IN PLACE AFTER THE FIRES WENT OUT.

The stated absolute measurements of the "roaster" is "30
meters" (97.5 feet) and "70cm" (2.5 feet) off the ground.

The indefinite is the spacing of the rail tracks on the three
rows of concrete pillars.

Since we have a description of what condition the remains
would have been in we would have reasonable opportunity to consider a
limit as to how far apart the tracks could have been and thus a
reasonable opportunity to consider the girth of the alleged system.

What with the cumulative description we could say the rail
spacing couldn't have been much more than one foot.

Law of nature: Width by length by depth = volume.

The tales have it three rails. The system with three parallel
tracks can only have two spaces between them, one track on either side
with the space between divided by the third rail.

One foot spacing of two spaces would be 2 times 96 feet long
times 2.5 feet off the ground equaling 480 cubic feet.

The area at the same time defines where the wood would have
been placed, thus we have a reasonable opportunity to consider what
amount of wood would have been available which would have been within
the 480 cubic feet.

The tales have it 2000 to 3000 bodies at a time were cremated
on the grill.

Law of nature: Volume divided by quantity = the amount of
volume per each component of the quantity.

For the purposes of simplification we can use the average
between the two numbers 2000 and 3000 - 2500.

For the sake of avoiding the appearance of absolutism by
settling on one spacing between rails we can consider a few spacing
options, 1, 2, 3 feet.

Thus we would have at 1 foot spacing between rails a two foot
over-all width and at 2 foot spacing 4 feet etc.

Considering the first and most acceptable option of a two foot over-all cross dimension we have 2 x 96 feet by 2.5 off the ground = 480 cubic feet of area for the wood divided by 2500 bodies = .19 cubic feet of wood available to cremate one body.

At a spacing of two feet between each rail we have .38 cubic feet
of wood available per body. At a 3 foot spacing we would have .57
cubic foot.

Of course all this is based on the full volume of area where
the wood would be as if it was one big solid block and not taking into any consideration the necessity for air space.

Law of nature: Fire requires oxygen (air).

This would include the space between the constituents of the
combustionable material and a space for flames to develop between the
top of the piled wood and the grill. Since the material is said to
have been "brushwood" and "branches" we might consider 50% to be a
reasonable amount. Of course we could use other options, like 25% or
75%, but for the sake of simplicity we can use the 50% since any way
we figure it the results are a fatal blow to the Holocaust story.

Thus at a one foot spacing between rails and considering air
space we would have .095 cubic foot of wood per body.

What we are left with is the story has it that a human body
could be mostly cremated with a piece of wood about the size of a carton of cigarettes.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Dec 04, 2002 9:41 am)

Maybe they placed the wood on top of the gratings. Mattogno estimated the wood necessary to cremate a human being at about 200kg in his “Erntefest” article. This is based on some tests done on animal cadavers. Usingthe US standard construction lumber of 2inch x 4inch x 8 feet, that would probably require about 20 pieces. (Only 12 inches of a 2inch x 4inch seems to be a little skimpy.)
To do away with 2000 to 3000 bodies in one shot, they must have had train loads of wood coming into the camp.

fge

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:18 am)

Sailor said:
Maybe they placed the wood on top of the gratings. Mattogno estimated the wood necessary to cremate a human being at about 200kg in his Erntefest article. This is based on some tests done on animal cadavers. Using the US standard construction lumber of 2inch x 4inch x 8 feet, that would probably require about 20 pieces. (Only 12 inches of a 2inch x 4inch seems to be a little skimpy.)
To do away with 2000 to 3000 bodies in one shot, they must have had train loads of wood coming into the camp.

===============================================

The only thing the Holocaust story has on the supply of wood is two (2) or three (3) sentences by some witness or confession alluding to it.

One huge problem for the whole thing is that wet wood doesn't readily burn. In fact it would take tremendous heat just to get one freshly cut log to burning. The wood would have to have been cut way before and allowed to dry.

Wood delivers a lot less BTUs than coal. It might take some three or four times as much wood to equal that of coal.

There is one or two Holocaust accounts of the wood being put on top. Heat rises. Which would mean that the bulk of the heat would go racing upwards. It's said that some 90% of the heat from a fire place goes up the chimney.

The account in the initial article says there were flames 10 meters (30 + feet) high which would mean those flames wouldn't have contributed to any cremation.

Mass cremation by wood is just another Holocaust absurdity.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun May 16, 2004 11:15 pm)

This thread sums it up quite nicely; the claims of the 'holocau$t' as alleged simply cannot be rationalized scientifically.

When any debate on the specifics of the 'holocaust' as alleged occur, all you have to do is apply basic science. Ignore politics and useless, conditioned sentiment, science demolishes the lies.

The 'holocau$t' Industry has met the enemy, it's their own impossible assertions.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby roberto » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon May 17, 2004 7:37 pm)

So TMoran is suggesting that incineration of dead bodies on grids made out of railway tracks, as shown in the two pictures under the links below, would not have been possible because the air could not have circulated freely enough among the rails and bodies to fend the flames.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ft ... yre-01.jpg

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ft ... yre-02.jpg

A strange proposition. How, then, did they manage to burn about 7,000 dead bodies on the Dresden Altmarkt after the bombing attack on 13/14 February 1945?

As to the considerations regarding fuel requirements, it should be taken into account that the overwhelming majority of dead bodies incinerated on grids at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka extermination camps were wholly or partially decomposed and accordingly dried up and/or filled with substances that aid combustion. TMoran should make himself familiar with the chemical properties of the following substances:

- methane
- hydrogen sulphide
- mercaptans
- butyric acid

All of these substances come into being at various stages of the decomposition of animal organisms, including human corpses. All of them are flammable. Methane is even explosive.

These chemical properties, together with the fact that during the later stages of decomposition (including the one when butyric acid is formed) the corpse is dried up, most of the liquids that the body is usually made up of having seeped into the surrounding ground, are the likely explanation for the fact that, as former SS – men and other eyewitnesses stated during West German criminal investigations and trials, the bodies taken out of the mass graves burned well enough without extra fuel after having been incinerated, whereas those of freshly killed people did not burn as well and had to be sprayed with fuel before they would burn.

This, in turn, means that much less wood or other fuel was necessary for most of the incinerations than would have been required if the bodies had been not decomposed but "fresh" ones. Nevertheless, the procurement of wood seems to have caused considerable deforestation near, for instance, the Treblinka death camp. As Alex Bay wrote in his online article The Reconstruction of Treblinka:

[…]In the Treblinka death camp, a dense forest existed at the time the camp was erected in 1942. Part of this forest was felled and used in the camp's construction. Further cutting occurred in 1943 to provide fuel and, perhaps, for the burning of corpses. By 1944, the forest within the camp boundaries was reduced to a remnant, with many openings in the forest canopy.[…] It can be appreciated that more than half of the Treblinka's 53 acres [21 hectares] were cut. Close stereoscopic inspection of the best quality coverage flown in 1944 revealed that even the parts which remained in 1944 had been severely thinned.[…]


Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/Trebli ... hyp2.shtml

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue May 18, 2004 2:08 am)

Some points.

I see that Roberto has avoided:
Mattogno estimated the wood necessary to cremate a human being at about 200kg in his “Erntefest” article. This is based on some tests done on animal cadavers. Usingthe US standard construction lumber of 2inch x 4inch x 8 feet, that would probably require about 20 pieces. (Only 12 inches of a 2inch x 4inch seems to be a little skimpy.)
To do away with 2000 to 3000 bodies in one shot, they must have had train loads of wood coming into the camp.

Then he quotes the silly 'holocaust' History Project when they claim that:
half of the Treblinka's 53 acres [21 hectares] were cut

without telling us how much wood that would yield. Remember the claim is that ***900,000*** Jews were allegedly buried in an enormous pit, exhumed, and burned with wood in the open air on grates which means very inefficient use of heat, which means massive amounts of fuel; it's not sustainable, logically, scientifically.

Roberto thinks that by showing a few murdered Germans being burnt for sanitation purposes prior to burial at Dresden, that it somehow equates to the alleged 900,000 at Treblinka.

Can you cremate bodies with wood? Ofcourse, but as Mattogno has shown, ONE body alone takes large amounts of wood.
Now multiply Mattogno's figure:
US standard construction lumber of 2inch x 4inch x 8 feet, that would probably require about 20 pieces

by 900,000! AND even then, the alleged cremations at Treblinka (and elsewhere) would still necessiate massive human remains. Where are the remains? Remember, an alleged 900,000 cremated corpses remains.

Roberto says:
TMoran should make himself familiar with the chemical properties of the following substances:

- methane
- hydrogen sulphide
- mercaptans
- butyric acid

All of these substances come into being at various stages of the decomposition of animal organisms, including human corpses. All of them are flammable. Methane is even explosive.

Do tell Roberto, how much less fuel would be required if these 'substances' were prevalent? Show us to what degree they would aid the cremation process. To what degree would they sustain the time length required to cremate a corpse? Show us how many BTUs are generated from such substances when supposedly found in a human corpse.

and the coup de grace:

Roberto has avoided the fact there is no such mass grave that supposedly held the 'buried ***900,000*** Jews' prior to their alleged cremation with wood, and he cannot show it. BUT, Revisionist can point to the Ground Penetrating Radar work which has shown that the alleged enormous pit that supposedly held the alleged 900,000 Jews simply does not exist.

Science over superstition, propaganda, and lies.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby code yellow » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue May 18, 2004 6:44 am)

:? According to the beginning story,the Nazis used high powered generators to illuminate the scene for night time gassings,as well as various other outdoor activities.I find that hard to beleave because of the amount of air raids Germany has had to endure from the allies,with these brite lites illuminating outside.Also,how did they fuel these generators?Was there enough fuel at this point of the war to use them,because as I understand gas was scarcely used in any other case other than to supply the war effort.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue May 18, 2004 12:05 pm)

Roberto wrote: So TMoran is suggesting that incineration of dead bodies on grids made out of railway tracks, as shown in the two pictures under the links below, would not have been possible because the air could not have circulated freely enough among the rails and bodies to fend the flames.

The picture shows only very little space below the railroad track or I-beam grating, and only very little wood. I think that they poured gasoline over the bodies from the top in order to make the open air cremation work.
I also believe that the Dresden cremations were not complete, large parts of the bodies remained un-cremated and were buried in a mass grave.

TMoran should make himself familiar with the chemical properties of the following substances:
- methane
- hydrogen sulphide
- mercaptans
- butyric acid

To imply that to cremate a partially decomposed body takes only a lighted match seems to be rather unbelievable. I know that methane gas burns, but how much of it escaped during the body decomposition into the air? Hydrogen sulphide smell of rotten eggs and is used in stink bombs. I am not aware that it is produced in sufficient quantities to help the burning. Same with mercaptans and butric acid (a fatty acid).
Where could we find more details about this?

These chemical properties, together with the fact that during the later stages of decomposition (including the one when butyric acid is formed) the corpse is dried up, most of the liquids that the body is usually made up of having seeped into the surrounding ground, are the likely explanation for the fact that, as former SS – men and other eyewitnesses stated during West German criminal investigations and trials, the bodies taken out of the mass graves burned well enough without extra fuel after having been incinerated, whereas those of freshly killed people did not burn as well and had to be sprayed with fuel before they would burn.

I checked out Adalbert Rückerl NS-Vernichtungslager, the chapter "Treblinka". Where does he say that? Couldn't find anything.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue May 18, 2004 8:15 pm)

Roberto has said:
So TMoran is suggesting that incineration of dead bodies on grids made out of railway tracks, as shown in the two pictures under the links below, would not have been possible because the air could not have circulated freely enough among the rails and bodies to fend the flames.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ft ... yre-01.jpg

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ft ... yre-02.jpg

A strange proposition. How, then, did they manage to burn about 7,000 dead bodies on the Dresden Altmarkt after the bombing attack on 13/14 February 1945?

==================

Roberto's summary of my treatment is incomplete. It addresses more than just air circulation.

Evidently Roberto has been following the debates over my article that have taken place for years on another format. That would be most usually with Mr.Daniel Keren who kept on referring to the above photos.

The one shows a burning pyre in the background and the other shows a pile of bodies ready for incineration. We can't see the results of what's resulting in the one photo and we don't see any 'After' photos for what happened in the other photo.

The aim of the process was to make the body tissues inhospitable to the formation of disease causing microbes and not utter cremation.

The same reason diseased live stock is subjected to the same fate.

Can Roberto come up with any record of such a process resulting in cremation? No.

===============

Roberto also says:
As to the considerations regarding fuel requirements, it should be taken into account that the overwhelming majority of dead bodies incinerated on grids at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka extermination camps were wholly or partially decomposed and accordingly dried up and/or filled with substances that aid combustion. TMoran should make himself familiar with the chemical properties of the following substances:

- methane
- hydrogen sulphide
- mercaptans
- butyric acid

All of these substances come into being at various stages of the decomposition of animal organisms, including human corpses. All of them are flammable. Methane is even explosive.

=============

Roberto says methane would be built up and stored in the bodies but yet the bodies were all dried up?

The only 'facts' we have is what the sourced material says and that would be tales of Sobibor as said by Stangl. This is what the text of Holocaust 'facts' says - "Covered with lime, the corpses would
swell six to ten feet in the sun like mounds of dough. Once the gas
from decomposition was released, they would sink back down, and the
Jews would cover them with dirt."

Evidently, according to that, any gasses built up from decomposition were released before going to the pyre. The text also indicates the bodies wouldn't be all dried up.

The 'facts' are, we have Stangl's description, other Holocaust 'facts' and putting it all together we are told they could cremate a Holocaust body with just a teeny bit of wood.

If the Holocaust 'facts' had any legitimacy at all the Holocaust community would have gone out and gotten verification and support from the scientific community but they haven't and never will. You just won't get professionals putting their reputations on the line for such nonsense.

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Postby mscfs2 » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed May 19, 2004 8:34 am)

In all fairness guys, I don’t like the original analysis. It misses some points in the mass cremation pyre scenario. A pyre has a vertical configuration (layers of bodies above wood) and in my opinion this is crucial to the analysis.

I apologize for the rather long post, but please bear with me.

First some basic facts:

A wood fire has a range of temperatures. The range is near 1100 F near the coals to about 300 F at the tip of the flame. All these temperatures exceed the boiling point of water (212 F). Therefore all materials within the flame would be undergoing dehydration. Down low near the 1100 F coals it would be more rapid. Up high (2 meters) it would be slower. But all corpses would be in the process of dehydration.

The human body (on average) is about 60% water by weight. If you assume 150 lb average adult then 150 *0.6 = 90 lbs water. 150 * 0.4 = 60 lb of solid matter.

The human skeleton is about 20% total body weight (wet). Therefore 150 lbs * 0.2 = 30 lbs (wet). Since bones contain somewhat less than 50% water content by weight 30 lbs of bones (wet) yields roughly 15 lbs of solid matter. (Astonishingly light weight)

With a total dry weight of 60 lbs, of which about 15 lbs is bone, this leaves about 45 lbs for muscles, organs, sinews, etc. But let’s do calculations on the conservative side and call this 40 lbs.

All of this dry solid matter is combustible.
Of course the “meat” portion is readily combustible.
Small bones (toes, fingers, forearm, lower leg, ribs) are combustible.
High density bones (skull, upper arm, upper leg, vertebrae, and pelvis) are of lower combustibility.

The “meat” is about 40 lbs (dry). The total skeleton is about 15 lbs (dry) with the combustible portion conservatively estimated at maybe 5 lbs (dry). Conservative calculations indicate results of at least 40 lbs + 5 lbs = 45 lbs of dry combustible matter per body. This discounts the lower combustible skull, vertebrae, pelvis and upper limbs. They indeed do burn but require somewhat longer exposure to high temperatures.

Pyre considerations:

As stated earlier the vertical configuration of a pyre is in my opinion crucial to the analysis.

In a mass cremation pyre the lower bodies nearest the wood fire hot coals (1100 F) would dehydrate first. If they dry sufficiently their dry mass (45 lbs) could ignite and become additional fuel contributing their heat to dehydrating the bodies in the upper portion of the pyre. If these lower bodies do ignite and burn they would eventually collapse thereby lowering the overall vertical dimension of the pyre bringing the remaining upper bodies closer to the hot coals.

Fuel volumes and masses:

About what is the volume of the 45 lbs of dry organic matter generated by the dehydration of a corpse?

The specific gravity of organic materials ranges from 1.0 to 1.2. Taking a middling value of 1.1 (seems fair) this works out to 62.4 lbs/ft3 * 1.1 = 68 lbs/ft3. Therefore the conservatively calculated volume of the dry matter is roughly 45/68 = 0.6 cubic foot (ft3).

If the pyre includes a total of say about 2000 bodies, they could potentially generate about 90,000 additional lbs (45 US tons) of fuel. At 0.6 ft3 per body * 2000 bodies = 1200 ft3 of additional dry organic matter. I believe the original thread indicated 480 ft3 * 0.5 airspace = 240 ft3 of wood. The dehydrated bodies volume therefore almost quintuple (5x) the volume of combustible wood (1200 / 240 = 5).

Conclusions:

Therefore the crucial point in my analysis is whether the initial 240 ft3 of wood is enough to dehydrate some of the lower elevation bodies in the bottom of the pyre sufficiently enough to allow for them to ignite. The dehydration and ignition of subsequently higher elevation layers of bodies could then continue in an upwards direction through the vertically configured pyre.

To calculate that only the wood contributes to the cremation is a remarkable over simplification. There may be other sources of combustibility.

Like I said in the first paragraph, I don’t like the original analysis as it completely misses some points in the mass cremation pyre analysis. It considers only the volume of wood as a potential source of heat. It does not include the generation of additional fuel, the vertical configuration of a pyre, the sequential combustion of a pyre, the combustion process of dehydration leading to dry matter leading to ignition, the distribution of temperature over the height of the pyre, nor changes in pyre configuration over time.

I still don’t have any idea if this is enough wood fuel to initiate combustion of the entire pyre, but any analysis of this sort must include, in my opinion, at least some acknowledgement of the above referenced points.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed May 19, 2004 10:57 am)

Having seemingly seen it all in debating the cremation aspect of the Holocaust story I would recognize that as the classic 'Holocaust bodies burned like wood' hypothisis. That is the ultimate recourse defenders have to resort to.

Just as an added comment on what effect the amount of wood could deliver I have done experiments with burning a pile of dried wood with various diameters and piled 2 feet across and 2 feet high and once it gets going it only last about 20 minutes before it dies down to embers.

Figuring the bodies at an accommodating 6 inches thick the bodies would have to have been piled over 15 feet high on the described 'roaster' dimensions. The most effect the fire would have had on the bodies is to cause the flesh on the bottom side of the first bodies to blister up.

Ah yes, HOLOCAUST BODIES BURNED LIKE WOOD. When all else fails that's the ultimate desperation.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed May 19, 2004 11:48 am)

And of course no one can SHOW me verifiable photos of a forensic excavation at Treblinka to prove the alleged mass grave for 900,000. And no, laughable Communist assertions about a phoney excavation won't cut it. We want to SEE the proof.

They also cannot show us verifiable photos of the human remains as alleged at Treblinka. Why is that?

What? They took no verifiable photos? Simple, there is no enormous pit to show, there are no human remains as alleged to show. It's really not that complicated.

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Last edited by Hannover on Wed May 19, 2004 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed May 19, 2004 12:09 pm)

mscfs2 said:
Conservative calculations indicate results of at least 40 lbs + 5 lbs = 45 lbs of dry combustible matter per body. This discounts the lower combustible skull, vertebrae, pelvis and upper limbs. They indeed do burn but require somewhat longer exposure to high temperatures.

I'm not sure if I buy these calculations, but let's play along for the sake of argument.

Given that 45 lbs is roughly equivalent to 1/3 of the original body weight of 150 lbs; then lets's call the alleged number '900,000 45 lb. Jew corpses'.

So where's the evidence for the vast trainloads of wood necessary to burn 900,000 45 lb. corpses?

Either way you cut it it's a joke.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed May 19, 2004 3:35 pm)

mscfs2 wrote: Of course the “meat” portion is readily combustible.
Small bones (toes, fingers, forearm, lower leg, ribs) are combustible.
High density bones (skull, upper arm, upper leg, vertebrae, and pelvis) are of lower combustibility.


The nitrogen compounds which form part of the proteins block the combustion and require a rather high temperature, about 1700ºF, in order to break down and to burn.

In a mass cremation pyre the lower bodies nearest the wood fire hot coals (1100 F) would dehydrate first. If they dry sufficiently their dry mass (45 lbs) could ignite and become additional fuel contributing their heat to dehydrating the bodies in the upper portion of the pyre. If these lower bodies do ignite and burn they would eventually collapse thereby lowering the overall vertical dimension of the pyre bringing the remaining upper bodies closer to the hot coals.

I am not familiar with mass cremation on pyres.
The open air cremations which I observed in Nepal used a rather high pyre of wood with only one body on top.
In Treblinka it seems to be rather the opposite: a relatively small amount of wood underneath the grating and a huge amount of bodies on top.
And looking at the picture in Dresden posted above, there is hardly any space at all for the wood underneath. I am sure that they used gasoline.

Conclusions:

Therefore the crucial point in my analysis is whether the initial 240 ft3 of wood is enough to dehydrate some of the lower elevation bodies in the bottom of the pyre sufficiently enough to allow for them to ignite. The dehydration and ignition of subsequently higher elevation layers of bodies could then continue in an upwards direction through the vertically configured pyre.

I am sure that the lower bodies will be dehydrated. The question here is, do we have sufficient temperature of about 1700ºF to break down the proteins and get them burning so that they can function as a fuel?

My information is from a Topf patent "Patentschrift Nr. 861 731" description: Verfahren und Vorrichtung zur Verbrennung von Leichen, Kadavern und Teilen davon.
(Procedure and equipment for the cremation of human bodies, cadavers and parts thereof)

fge

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Postby Trojan » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed May 19, 2004 4:39 pm)

Why are all these discussions centered around wood? Didn't the Nazis have access to coal or other combustibles?
Last edited by Trojan on Fri May 21, 2004 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.


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