The Heizer (Stokers)

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The Heizer (Stokers)

Postby Sailor » 1 decade 8 years ago (Sat May 24, 2003 3:37 pm)

The THHP site lists three work deployment lists with dates for the Birkenau camp :

Auschwitz/Birkenau – July 28, 1944
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/labor-force/19440728/

Auschwitz/Birkenau - August 2 1944
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/labor-force/19440802/

Auschwitz/Birkenau - August 25, 1944
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/labor-force/19440825/

These lists show each very large numbers of “Heizer” (stokers) assigned to the crematoriums in Birkenau:

July 28, 1944: 3 skilled + 870 unskilled stokers
August 2, 1944: 3 skilled + 870 unskilled stokers
August 25, 1944: 4 skilled + 870 unskilled stokers

The hoaxers herald this as proof that this large number of stokers was necessary in order to handle the cremation of all the Jews which were allegedly killed by gas. Especially Jews from Hungary.

The only comments about the number of stokers I found were in a thread on the old CODOH-discussion forum "an alleged document / why so many 'heizers'?"
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID7/496.html
where both sides of the fence described their views on this.

This is my take on it:

The cremation process with the Topf-designed ovens is in my opinion not very labor intensive. All that is necessary is to shove the corpse into the muffle, close the muffle door and wait one hour for the next body to put in. The work required would be to adjust the air dampers in order to keep the muffle temperature within the allowed range and to shovel coke into the coke oven.
I estimate under full capacity condition two workers to operate the muffles and one coke shoveler per cremation oven. Which amounts to 15 workers for the five ovens in Krema II. Additionally I estimate five workers to move the corpses from the elevator to the cremation ovens and for clean-up, and also five workers to move the bodies from the morgue 1 to the elevator in the basement. This gives a total of 35 workers for each shift, i.e. 70 workers total for Krema II. I would estimate the same number for all the other crematoriums, with a total of 280 workers under maximum conditions.
These 280 workers would be sufficient to handle 300 bodies per crematorium, 1200 bodies total per day.

The Holocaust apologists increase the capacity of the crematoriums to 15 minute per body cremation time, or 4,800 total. They also believe that almost no additional coke is required for the cremation and that the bodies burn practically by themselves. For this I would increase number of workers for moving the additional bodies by 10 per shift per crematorium, resulting in a total of 360 workers.

I don’t believe that more worker can be actively participate in the cremation process simply for space and access reasons of the ovens and the building.

From above mentioned debate:
Comparing them with Danuta Czech's 'monumental' and 'definitive'
voluminous tome Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945 we find:
July 26th:
2000 female Jews who arrived in RSHA transports from Hungary in May-July deportations, and held as so called depot prisoners in the transit camp, are admitted to the camp. 1300 Hungarian Jews (800 female, 500 male) are transferred from Auschwitz to Dachau.

July 27 :
463 of 1700 male Jews from Pustkow labour camp are admitted. 1237 gassed.

[…]

July 28:
450 prisoners from Radom are registered in the camp. 830 prisoners transferred from Majdanek arrive.

July 29:
Mention is made of the 873 inmates detailed to the crematoria.

July 30:
530 female Jews transferred from Auschwitz to Buchenwald.
1700 Polish Jews (1300 male, 400 female) transferred from Radom labour camps are registered. 'The remaining people are killed in the gas chambers.

July 31:
Nearly 2,000 of 3000 Jews transferred from a labour camp in Radom
are registered. 'The remaining people are killed in the gas chambers.' This may be the 3000 referred to above.

August 1:
Note that the 900 workers are now allocated to the crematoria. 129 Jewish boys, aged between 8-14, are transferred from Dachau and registered.

August 2 :
2898 Gypsies recorded as being present in Birkenau. 1408 Gypsies sent to Buchenwald. This train leaves at 7pm.
After evening roll-call, 2,897 Gypsys are gassed. (2898-1408=2897?!). [Sailor: See Mattogno about the Gypsies in Auschwitz on this forum. These people were not killed.] 'After gassing the corpses of the murdered are incinerated in the pit next to the crematorium, since the crematorium ovens are not operating at the time.' Which Krema?
200 from 560 prisoners transported from Belguim are gassed.


A cursory checking of Czech’s book of the days after August 2, 1944 further shows that there are quite a few day without any of the alleged gassing activities. What were those 873 stokers doing during those days? On other days Czech mentions maybe a few hundred people killed, of course without any proof. A few hundred could easily be handled by Krema II alone. What were the other more than 600 stokers doing during that time? On other days Czech reports of a transport coming in, some Jews were registered in the camp, of the others those who were unable to work were gassed, no proof, not even the numbers of gassed mentioned. How do I understand this now?

Therefore I have to agree at this time with the poster from above discussion:

Frankly, this looks like a case of hidden unemployment. Especially so, when we see on closer inspection that 400+ people are employed at the disinfection complex at Auschwitz I. That's a lot of people for that location, too.
The document also claims that NINE THOUSAND prisoners are employed. How much work was there to do at Birkenau, anyway? Further, the document lists THREE THOUSAND unemployed, and another TWO THOUSAND who are in quarantine, in hospital, or whatever. Why are these categories of prisoners here?

And:
However, practically speaking, the number of stokers tells us only that there were stokers.


:D
Last edited by Sailor on Sat May 24, 2003 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 8 years ago (Sat May 24, 2003 7:00 pm)

Some points:

The so called 'holocaust' History Project, known for their fraudulence, reproduces only one document of the 5 they claim, that one is merely a typed, unconfirmed piece of paper. There is no official letterhead, there are no official stamps, no signature, no date that I can see, no verifiability whatsoever. It is typed in German, and that's it. Official markings, signatures, history of discover, verifiability, are the hallmarks of authenticity; we have none of that here. It could have been typed by anyone at anytime, just because it's in German does not make it authentic.

- We should be seeing lists for every day, why is just 1 day shown, there should be stacks and stacks of these things....but there isn't. Curious.

- The alleged document also claims that NINE THOUSAND prisoners are employed. How much work was there to do at Birkenau, anyway? Further, the document lists THREE THOUSAND unemployed, and another TWO THOUSAND who are in quarantine, in hospital, or whatever. Why are these categories of prisoners here?

- Wartime aerial photos don't show burnings in the alleged massive pits that these 'stokers' would have been servicing since the cremations are alleged to have surpassed the capacities of the crematoriums, the massive dimensions of which are specified by eyewitnesses, all of whom also describe 24 hour a day 90 foot plumes of flame and smoke coming from the chimneys....none of which is visible in any photo.

Another fraud pushed by the so called 'holocau$t' History Project, another easily debunked lie revealed by Revisionists.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 8 years ago (Sat May 24, 2003 9:30 pm)

The THHP site lists three work deployment lists with dates for the Birkenau camp :

Auschwitz/Birkenau – July 28, 1944
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... /19440728/

Auschwitz/Birkenau - August 2 1944
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... /19440802/

Auschwitz/Birkenau - August 25, 1944
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... /19440825/


===============================================

All forgeries. Someone(s) found real work manifests and got the witty idea to redo them with the 900 sondercommando. That's how much of the Holocaust story was created, by manipulation or alteration of existing realities at the camp.

In this case they found the records among all the other massive amounts of documents left behind at Auschwitz/Birkenau and then ...

Where are the rest of the pages? The camp was in use for at least two years which would be 730 days. But alas, it might be one thing forging 3 documents but it would be another to forge a few hundred.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 8 years ago (Sun May 25, 2003 3:26 am)

Germania:
Make your point in regards to this thread. Your link, which you were not part of, contained many subjects not relevant to this thread.

Let us hear your views about this thread, we welcome your opinion.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:39 pm)

It's particularily revealing that Believers put so much emphasis on this laughable 'document'. That's the way it goes....they can't find real documents or physical evidence, so they desperately resort to laughable and obvious baloney.
Considering their beliefs in the utterly impossible allegations, we shouldn't be surprised.

Such is the 'holocau$t' as alleged.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:42 pm)

Engineer Kurt Prüfer, who had a large direct share in the erection of the crematoriums of Auschwitz, was interrogated on March 5, 1946 by Soviet Captain Schatanowski and Major Moruschenko:
Question: How many times and for what purpose did you travel to the concentration camp Auschwitz?
Answer: I traveled to Auschwitz as a design engineer and head of the department for the construction of crematoriums five times. […]The fifth time in September/October 1944; I was ordered by the SS-leadership to disassemble the crematoriums of the camp Auschwitz and to pack the equipment as well as the brick work carefully for the transfer to another location. In my opinion this was because the front came closer. Although I did on all my trips what was necessary in order to fulfill the instructions of the SS-leadership of the concentration camp, but the latter I could not complete, because there was no labor force, and therefore the crematoriums were not taken apart.


With 900 Heizers standing around there should have been sufficient man power to take those crematoriums apart, I would say.

Also, if Prüfer did not take the crematorium ovens apart, then who did? Someone did! All pieces of the ovens are gone, disappeared!

Something smells rotten here.
:?
fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:08 am)

See more from Sailor here:

http://sailor.yourforum.org/index.html

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Re: The Heizer (Stokers)

Postby Zulu » 1 decade 1 month ago (Mon May 09, 2011 11:02 am)

An usual trick used by Pressac is to pick up a document out of his context and to make remarks about its "extraordinariness" . In that particular case of an "extraordinary number of stokers" the exceptionalness comes from the ignorance of the "normality". For instance, we don't know the number of workers usually affected at the crematorium of Oranienburg, Dachau or Buchenwald as we don't know the nominal affectation at the 4 Kremas of Birkenau during a longer period of time. Only 2 or 3 "especially chosen" time sheets are given.
In such conditions, the number of 870 stokers could appears as "extraordinary".

On that particular cherry picked day, we observe that 2 shifts are enrolled (Tag + Nacht = day - night) , that is a situation that we can imagine "exceptional" because 2 shifts were not always required.

On the same sheet we can notice that the number of workers by team varies between 104 and 110 and that could be the normal affectation at each Krema.

Is that affectation corresponding to an exceptional activity? Giving all the tasks involved at those buildings and around, that could be not so "extraordinary".
How could 110 men be affected at the Kremas and which task could be performed?

According with the plan of Krema II, we could list the tasks corresponding to the collect of cadavers and their cremation including intermediary work and the maintaining of the buildings as following

1 - to collect and bring corpses to the morgues from different locations of the camp,
2 - to dispose corpses at the morgues,
3 - to undress corpses, to pick up clothes, shoes and documents.
4 - to cut hair
5 - to gather hair and bring it to a central deposit.
6 - to take clothes, shoes to transport to Kanada.
7 - to bring documents to the incinerator (close to the chimney).
8 - to perform incineration of documents.
9 - to pick up the gold teeth
10 - to melt gold and bring bars to the safe box
11 - to transport corpses from underground morgues to ovens,
12 - to transport coke from the main storage to the furnaces' room and incinerator room
13 - to work at the furnaces (loading corpses, loading coke, removing bones, removing ashes...).
14- to evacuate and transport ashes and residues.
15- to take note of works and emit time sheets and dairy reports.
16 - to make some diverse cleanness and maintenance tasks.
17- to maintain the garden and vegetation around.

Given that at least 2 stokers by muffles were required, thus 30 workers at K II or K III for the task #13, the remaining 16 tasks would have required 90 people.

That distribution of tasks don't take into account the activities carried out on the first floor of the Krema II and III.

...were 104-110 people to perform all tasks at each Krema reasonable?
A priori yes. Is it "extraordinary"? How can we know? The only exceptionalness is the activity of 2 shifts instead of 1.
A comparison with the affectation of workers at the crematorium of other main camps or the documents corresponding to a larger period at Birkenau including 1943 would bring more data to judge.
In addition, the consumption of coke that same day (of that 870 stokers time sheet) can be interesting to know in order to make some really relevant observation about the actual oven's activity and the ratio [number of muffles]x [numbers of stokers]

Furthermore, a complete time sheet (not showed mentions the affectation of other people including prisoners and civilian working for civilian firms at the same place, a fact not to much compatible with the "high secret" which is supposed to cover the criminal operations.
on July 28, 1944
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... /19440728/

Companies on Commission to the Construction Direction 6 + 161 skilled + 736 unskilled

Other "extraordinary" number
53-B. Cleanup Detail. Au. II.New Disinf. Camp - - 590 workers .

Since long time ago I ask for the time sheets of all the month of August 1943, for instance, because we know the actual activity of that month and the corresponding coke's consumption. That would be an interesting way to perform a correct "calibration" regarding the number of "stokers" in function of the number of cadavers cremated at Birkenau..

I asked many times to have access to such documents but in vain.

However, there is a question that can be asked to the exterminationists:
how do you make the repartition on the respective tasks accomplished by 900 stokers at the Kremas and their location in case of massive gassings?

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Re: The Heizer (Stokers)

Postby Hans » 1 decade 1 month ago (Tue May 10, 2011 5:33 am)

Zulu,

what can be considered as normal can be estimated from the operation of the ovens: introducing a corpse into a muffle (every 60 minutes according to Revisionists, historically incorrect though), regulation of the ventilation (after introduction of the corpse and from time to time), adding coke (from time to time), scratching out the ash for afterburning (before introducing new corpse), removing ash (20 min later). There is no apparent reason why this requires a workforce larger than a couple of people for 15 muffles or even more 8 muffles. Even if we assume there were 3 stokers assigned to every tripple-muffle oven, we have still a fraction of stokers mentioned in the labour force reports. In the historical Auschwitz (as opposed to Revisionist Auschwitz) the cremation cycles were shorter and some more corpses were introduced. But also there are some sources to access the number of stokers employed - the stokers themselves. According to Tauber, two stokers took care of each three-muffle-oven of crematoria 2 and 3.

But these considerations refer to full load operation. If we go back to summer 1944, there was likely a similar death rate in Auschwitz than after the typhus epidemic in 1943, Pressac estimates something like 80 deaths among registered prisoners per day. If we assume the Revisionist cremation rate of 60 min (still much too low, but for the sake of argument), crematorium 2 alone would finish this in less than 6 hours. If we take more reasonable cremations rates, crematorium 2 needed not more than an hour to cremate the deaths among registered prisoners, so only a small fraction of the cremation capacity was needed. A single crematorium with a single shift was sufficient, and even then workforce in the shift could have been reduced. To sum it up, the incineration of the registered deaths required about 6 or 9 stokers (if Revisionist cremation rates were right) or 2 stokers considering the actual cremation rates - and not 870.

Zulu, I appreciate you made yourself some thoughts about what else people could do in or at the crematoria. Your first point can be neglected though, since there was a already a corpse carrying detail. If we consider the amount of deaths among registered prisoners, your whole list does not provide work for more than 50 people - for the whole crematoria complex. While this is one magnitude of order higher then if we just consider the stokers , and therefore a significant progress, it still explains much less than 10 % of the workforce employed.

So we have about 95 % of workforce unexplained. And this is were the mass killing hypothesis comes into play. The amount of workforce required at the crematoria scales with the number of corpses. So if the small amount of known "natural deaths" among registered prisoners (in fact, those natural deaths included small scale killing, but we ignore this for the moment) cannot explain the crematoria workforce, this suggest there is another source of death resulting in large amount of corpses accounting for the need of 95 % so far unexplained crematoria workforce. At this point we don't get any further with those documents and we need to consult additional evidence to determine what type of source of large number of additional deaths there could have been. And the evidence points very straight forward to mass killing. According to the people being present at the time, there was a program of mass killing of Jews who considered not suitable for forced labour.

In this context, the documents start to make sense. Because of mass murder activities there was excess of crematoria workforce compared to what was required for the treatment of the deaths among registered prisoner throughout the year 1944.

If we look on the chronological developement of the crematoria workforce, we find there is peak in the documents for end July to September 1944, whereas the peaks of mass killing where mid May to mid July and August 1944. So at first sight it looks like there is a offset of 2 months. This is however caused by a gap in the documents. There is no labour work force report known for the period mid May to end July. In the absence of documentary evidence, it is reasonable to consult testimonial evidence. According to this, the peak of the crematorium personnel was reached still in May with one of the earlier transports of Hungarian Jews, which melts down the offset to a few days.

The other problem is the mismatch in mid July to end July and then for September. There is two reasons two explain. First there might have been a still considerable number of workforce required in the aftermath of the liquidation of the Hungarian Jews for removing bones, ash and pit burning activities in particular. Secondly, and this is more importantly, since the crematoria staff was involved in mass killing operations and thus being considered as Geheimnisträger, there were unlikely being mixed with and allocated to other working details, but a) either kept together for operations in the near future or b) being liquidated if not needed anymore or c) being liquidated and replaced if there is the desire to set up a fresh detail. Obviously in Birkenau in mid July to August the first option was chosen. In August, Polish Jews were liquidated on a large scale. In September there was much less mass killing activity again and apparently with less need in future of crematoria workforce there had been liquidations in late September and early October triggering the Sonderkommando uprising with 200 crematoria prisoners left.

So in conclusion, the Heizer documents make sense when interpreted in the context of mass killing (as reported by numerous by numerous eyewitnesses), and they make little sense in the context of a no mass killing interpretation.


Since long time ago I ask for the time sheets of all the month of August 1943, for instance, because we know the actual activity of that month and the corresponding coke's consumption. That would be an interesting way to perform a correct "calibration" regarding the number of "stokers" in function of the number of cadavers cremated at Birkenau..



There are no records for August 1943, but even if you would only "calibrate" to the mass killing operations going on in 1943 and not to non-homicidal cremation activities. In fact, we know from the testimonies there were up to 400 people in the crematoria personnel in 1943.


However, there is a question that can be asked to the exterminationists:
how do you make the repartition on the respective tasks accomplished by 900 stokers at the Kremas and their location in case of massive gassings?



This is known to some extent by the former prisoners of the crematoria personnel. Those 900 workers were not working equally distributed among the crematoria sites, so that the equal distribution in the reports is just of administrative nature. The "stokers" listed were in fact nothing else but the Jewish Sonderkommando, with most Sonderkommandos being employed at the open air incineration sites and adjacent killing facilities. According to Tauber and Dragon this accounts for 2/3 of the workforce. Each shift in crematoria 2 and 3 consisted of 60 Sonderkommandos, of which 15 were employed in the undressing room, 15 for clearing the gas-chamber of corpses, 2 for loading the elevator, 4 for cutting the hair, 2 for removing the gold teeth, 2 for operating the gasifiers, 2 for operating the elevator, 2 for unloading the elevator, 2 for getting the corpses to the ovens, 10 for introducing the corpses to the ovens, 4 for assisting the shift leader.

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Re: The Heizer (Stokers)

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 month ago (Tue May 10, 2011 5:00 pm)

Hans cites alleged 'eyewitness' Henryk Tauber, an alleged crematorium worker who is considered vital to the standard 'holocaust' story; here are some examples of Tauber's bizarre "facts":

- Tauber testified to the Soviet Commission (Nuremberg document USSR-008) of 1945 that 10,000-12,000 per day were cremated in the ovens of Auschwitz-Birkenau. An utter impossibility given the crematoria at Auschwitz/Birkenau.

- Tauber stated that a body could be cremated in 7-9 minutes, an impossibility today, let alone with 1940s technology.

- Tauber testified to skimming off boiling human fat from open air cremations. Impossible, the fat would have ignited.

- Tauber testified to reservoirs filled with this human fat that flowed from the burning corpses. (same as above)

- Tauber testified that he inserted & cremated 8 bodies at once, in one oven, in order to signal Allied aircraft with smoke . Physically impossible.

- Tauber stated:
"Ober Capo August explained to us that, according to the calculations and plans for this crematorium, 5 to 7 minutes was allowed to burn one corpse in a muffle." A lie, there were no "calculations and plans" in the records which would have reflected this.

Hans also references Szlamy Dragon, and that's really funny. Even J. C. Pressac, a French pharmacist who, without success, was paid to find proof of the impossible gas chambers, makes mincemeat of Dragon. Pressac commenting on Dragon's 'testimony' at the 1972 Dejaco/Ertl trial concerning the alleged 'gas chambers', said:
This is physically impossible [...]. I do not think that this witness was intentionally misleading, but he was following the tendency to exaggerate which seems to have been the general rule at the time of the liberation and which is what gave rise to the figure of 4 million victims for K.L. Auschwitz, a figure now considered to be pure propaganda.

Pressac even said that 'witness' Dragon showed "total confusion".

For more, see:
'Dr. Faurisson shreds J.C Pressac's 'gas chambers'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6457&p=46328

So when will Hans tell us how the 'gas chambers' supposedly worked?

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Re: The Heizer (Stokers)

Postby Zulu » 1 decade 1 month ago (Fri May 13, 2011 5:57 am)

Hans wrote:Zulu,



So in conclusion, the Heizer documents make sense when interpreted in the context of mass killing (as reported by numerous by numerous eyewitnesses), and they make little sense in the context of a no mass killing interpretation.

That is your conclusion which is established without any comparison based on other data sheets concerning the affectation of workers to other crematory's installations at other camps especially those not considered "death camps" like Dachau, Mauthausen or Buchenwald .


Since long time ago I ask for the time sheets of all the month of August 1943, for instance, because we know the actual activity of that month and the corresponding coke's consumption. That would be an interesting way to perform a correct "calibration" regarding the number of "stokers" in function of the number of cadavers cremated at Birkenau..



Hans wrote:There are no records for August 1943, but even if you would only "calibrate" to the mass killing operations going on in 1943 and not to non-homicidal cremation activities. In fact, we know from the testimonies there were up to 400 people in the crematoria personnel in 1943.

[/quote="Hans"]

Well, is we admit those testimonies and we consider that number of 400 people working at the 4 crematories in August 1943, we can now match such affectation with the other documents related to that same period and which can help us in defining the actual acitivity at those 4 Kremas.
I qote a part of my previous post concerning specifically the cremation at nazi camps.


G - Verification of the Gusen's parameters for coke's consumption in Topf's ovens.

References are available to control Gusen's parameters applied to Auschwitz's
crematory installations. For instance, there is a document concerning the number of deaths registered in August 1943 which can be faced with the documented coke delivery on that same month at Auschwitz.

1 - The number of deaths registered in August 1943

According with that page from the Pohl's report to Himmler
http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/05/NMT05-T0382.htm

we can observe that, on August 1943, the mortality at Auschwitz was:

Concentration camps......Average number of inmates.....Deaths
Auschwitz (men)................48,000......................1,442
Auschwitz (women).............26,000........................938
-------------------------------------------------------------
Total.............................74,000.......................2,380

2 - The coke's consumption of the year 1943

"PMO microfilm 12,012 contains the coke delivery notes for the
Krematorien (without distinguishing between them) from 16th February 1942 to 25th October 1943."

http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0224.htm

We observe that for the month of August, 1943 the coke delivery notes
for the 4 Krematorien in activity at Birkenau, the quantity of coke delivered was

---> 71 tons.

If we consider that 2.380 deaths were cremated* that month, that gives
an average of 29,83 kg of coke burned per corpse.

The average I gave above for the Gusen's parameter is 28.7 kg per corpse
burned. That value is remarkably consistent with 29,83 kg deduced from the registers of Auschwitz in August 1943 related with coke deliveries and deaths."


So, we now have obejctive physical data that can establish the actual activity registered at the 4 Kremas in August 1943 and which correpsonded to the cremation of approximatively 2.380 cadavers while 400 workers were regularly affected at that post.
What have of "exceptional" the cremation of about 2.400 corpses in a month at Birkenau?


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