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MissButterfly
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Postby MissButterfly » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon May 29, 2006 12:23 pm)

Being new to these boards, and not seeing a place to introduce "newbies"... I thought I would just start a new post.
I must say that while I AM NOT a revisionist...and I do believe that the holocaust happened (only because I've been fascinated with it since childhood and have done A LOT of research into it), I also have an open mind and enjoy debating over certain issues with people who can be respectful. (Although I will take into account that some people are so passionate about their beliefs that they let there mouths over ride good sense sometimes...me being one of them! lol)

That being said, my first question is this....Is it that those of you DO NOT believe that the Holocaust actually happened? Or is it that you believe that throughout time some of the historical documentation has been falsified and/or certain things left out?

Hope to hear from some of you soon and thank you for your future input! :)

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Postby Harald » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon May 29, 2006 1:16 pm)

MissButterfly wrote:Is it that those of you DO NOT believe that the Holocaust actually happened? Or is it that you believe that throughout time some of the historical documentation has been falsified and/or certain things left out?


Well, I don't believe in the Holocaust in the sense that there was any centrally planned genocide and that there were millions of people murdered in the concentration camps.

It has already been sufficiently proven that the ways the murders should have taken place are technically impossible, that the confessions were forced under torture and so on and so on.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon May 29, 2006 1:24 pm)

First of all, welcome.

points:

1. What is your definition of the so called 'holocaust'?
If it's '6,000,000 (or 11-12,000,000 including 'others') & gas chambers', then Revisionists state there is no evidence. Nor are there are any mass graves or remains to support the assertions, none.

2. There has definitely been some document falsification, easily shown.

3. Yes, certain things have been left out.

Attempts by the panicked 'Holocau$t Industry' to reduce Revisionists research to misleading one-liners is not a sincere and honest look at what has been done. Revisionists have looked into all aspects of the storyline and it does not hold up to scientific, rational, or logical scrutiny.

Per our guidelines, each thread is based upon one point. I hope you proceed accordingly.

Regards, Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon May 29, 2006 2:49 pm)

missButterfly wrote:

That being said, my first question is this....Is it that those of you DO NOT believe that the Holocaust actually happened? Or is it that you believe that throughout time some of the historical documentation has been falsified and/or certain things left out?


As Hannover said, it really depends on what you consider the Holocaust to be. From what you wrote it seems to me you have no idea of what the revisionists arguments are. Until recently, I didn't either. My first impression was that the revisionist researchers were just crackpots. Why did I think that? That's what we keep hearing in the media. I had never had the chance to hear what they were saying from their own mouths. See, there is this entire school of thought about the Holocaust, which started right after the end of WWII, that is totally ignored. In fact, not just ignored, the revisionists are and have been consistently character assassinated, persecuted, financially destroyed, and in the cases of countries such as Germany and Austria, jailed. In my case it helped that I always studied wwII and the facts surrounding it a lot, so I knew that wwII "history", as it is presented to us, is to a large extent, a load of BS. I couldn't control my curiosity any longer and decided to start reading the 'forbidden' books that had been written by the main revisionist researchers. I had already read many important holocaust authors, such as Hilberg, Dawidowicz, Browning and others. Boy, I was in for the surprise of my life.

In a nutshell, here is what I alway believed, but no longer do;
1- don't believe there was any centrally planned genocide by the National Socialist government, either in the camps or anywhere else.
2- don't believe there were ever any homicidal gas chambers in any concentration camp.
3- don't believe in the shootings behind the lines on the eastern front(einsatzgruppen), in regards to their scale(greatly exagerated), nor their purpose(exterminate jews). I believe the atrocities that took place were connected to the Partisanenkrieg, the war against the insurgents.

Obviously the jews suffered a lot under the nazis, particularly during the second half of the war, thousands died horribly in the camps and guettos.
Though the truth was pretty bad, it seems it just wasn't bad enough for the allied black propaganda and the zionists.

regards

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Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon May 29, 2006 3:17 pm)

MissButterfly wrote:
That being said, my first question is this....Is it that those of you DO NOT believe that the Holocaust actually happened? Or is it that you believe that throughout time some of the historical documentation has been falsified and/or certain things left out?

Hope to hear from some of you soon and thank you for your future input! :)


As the Israeli writer Boas Evron wrote:

"Holocaust Awareness is an official, propagandistic indoctrination, a churning out of slogans and a false view of the world, the real aim of which is not at all an understanding of the past, but a manipulation of the present".

In other words The Holocaust is a political and ideological invention, created in 1978, to exploit people for both money and political gain. I think everybody here believes in that "Holocaust".

That also means that The Holocaust has nothing to do with events or Nazi atrocities during the 1940's, but merely uses them as an ideological backdrop, to some degree the same way Protestants use the Inquisition, Catholics the Roman Persecutions, or Shite Muslims the martyrdom of Ali. When you examine the historical facts, you discover that the ideology has no real connection with the history.

Finding out that history is difficult, because there have been so many lies, falsehoods, and coverups, some of which have been exploited for massive amounts of money. Nobody here will deny that the Nazi's hated Jews and oppressed them or exploited them. But there is no evidence that they wanted, or tried, to exterminate them enmasse.

The concentration camps were real, but the Nazi's didn't invent them, and they were no different, and no worse, than any other such camps. The U.S., France, Britain and the United Kingdom, Poland, Russia, Holland, Belgium, Romania, Hungary, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Turkey; they all created concentration camps well before Nazi Germany did so, and since most of these camps were in colonies with "lesser races", conditions in them were usually far more brutal.

In otherwords, the Nazi's committed neither a unique crime, nor an unusual one.

Such passion as you see here will be a desire for the truth, a revulsion to being lied to (it really is the ultimate insult), and outrage over the exploitation of the above mentioned "ideological construct", as well the continuing attempts by people like David Faber to poison the minds of young children with what can be called Holo-Hatred (look him up, you'll see what I mean). This is tempered with no small amount of good-humored amusement at some of the more outrageous stories of so-called "Holocaust Survivors", as well as at the gullibility of the people and media figures who swallow their stories unchallenged. As P.T. Barnum said, there's a sucker born every minute.

One last thought. Holocaust Revisionism was invented in 1948 by a man who himself was a victim of the Nazi's, with 15 months spent in Buchenwald and Dora. "Neo-Nazi's" are, as Henri Roque said, "a useful phantasm", but they don't really exist.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon May 29, 2006 5:05 pm)

Miss Butterfly, welcome! If you stay with it and truly are seeking the truth you will learn much by letting the information which passes across this board educate you about Holocaust revisionism!
It isn't what you think it is and many posters here have followed your journey.

Hannover and others have asked you the first critical question about your inquiry. What do you mean by "the Holocaust" when you say you believe in it? The alleged German gas chamber slaughter of European Jewry? Nazi anti-Jewish actions and plans to deport Jews from Europe under their control? All of the above?


The conventional wisdom is that revisionists are people who say that nothing bad happened to the Jews during WWII. "Deniers". It makes a nice slogan. Keep reading. You're in for an education.

Germar Rudolf's book "Lectures on the Holocaust" is also a good start.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon May 29, 2006 8:07 pm)

Radar wrote:Germar Rudolf's book "Lectures on the Holocaust" is also a good start.


I second that, as always. It is freely available as a pdf here:

http://vho.org/dl/ENG/loth.pdf

so there is no reason why you shouldn't start educating yourself on the revisionist arguments already today. You're in for a very interesting read, I can promise you that.
Best wishes and welcome to the forum.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue May 30, 2006 12:32 am)

Is it that those of you DO NOT believe that the Holocaust actually happened?

We don't believe it happened.

The Nazis tried to kick the Jews out of Europe by deporting them East to camps. Those trains they were deported on, became known through lies as "death trains." The camps became known through lies as "death camps."

Then the Jews all moved to Israel, United States and Canada, and then said "look! no more Jews in Europe. They were all killed."

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Postby Rapier » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue May 30, 2006 1:57 am)

MissButterfly wrote:Being new to these boards, and not seeing a place to introduce "newbies"... I thought I would just start a new post.
I must say that while I AM NOT a revisionist...and I do believe that the holocaust happened (only because I've been fascinated with it since childhood and have done A LOT of research into it), I also have an open mind and enjoy debating over certain issues with people who can be respectful. (Although I will take into account that some people are so passionate about their beliefs that they let there mouths over ride good sense sometimes...me being one of them! lol)

That being said, my first question is this....Is it that those of you DO NOT believe that the Holocaust actually happened? Or is it that you believe that throughout time some of the historical documentation has been falsified and/or certain things left out?

Hope to hear from some of you soon and thank you for your future input! :)


This is also my first venture to this forum. I believe in the Holocaust. It happened. I believed 6 million Jews died at the hands of the German military during WW2 most of my adult life.
At the age of 8 to 10 I had actually seen people in Philadelphia, Pa. with concentration camp tattoos. I was told their sad tales and thought that this was the horror of war of my time, the fifties.

In the sixties no topic was left unturned. Though half my schoolmates were Jewish the term gassing never touched my ears. Holocaust yes, gas chambers no.

After Sophie's Choice, which was a best seller before the movie, gassing and gas chambers, and the inhumanity of every German citizen became lockstep with the Holocaust. The Holocaust gas chambers and exterminations of Jews and others became the secret no one outside of Germany had known.

I won't go into how many times the real story of the Holocaust has been adjusted to abide by new irrefutable information. One of the most irrefutable enlightenment's was that there had been no gas chambers in Germany. About 2 million gassing's were reassigned to camps in Poland and mythical gas chambers remained part of the Holocaust.

And of course there is the enormity of the Holocaust 6 million number.

Looking back to the fifties, Philadelphia was the third largest city in the US behind New York and Chicago. 3 million people resided in Philadelphia. The task of maintaining a steady flow of people over a three year period, from Philadelphia to Cape May, New Jersey, 100 miles, for extermination, even today seems incredibly labor intensive.

Now double that to 6 million Jews, gypsies and others over the same three year period to be transported for extermination and raise the travel distance to Polish camps from within Poland and much of Europe.


And the extermination by gassing? Ritual murder while fighting in the deadliest war in the history of the world? No. It never happened.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue May 30, 2006 5:51 am)

MissButterfly:
' ... and I do believe that the holocaust happened (only because I've been fascinated with it since childhood and have done A LOT of research into it), I also have an open mind ...'.


Personally, I find it impossible, with my particular standards, to study the Holocaust story and come away believing in it.

Most people in the world would express they have an open mind yet they may not be able to realize what is open and what is closed. While they are being introduced to something contrary to an initial belief the mind can have an anchor that keeps it from accepting the contrary notions.

Probably the best thing you could do is to start by listing all the verifying things you have found in your research and then we could see how you go about defending it.

Simply saying you have an open mind and did a lot of research and that you still find the story credible doesn't do it. I've seen many declarations like that over the years and rarely see anyone return to give it a go.

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Postby MissButterfly » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue May 30, 2006 7:01 am)

I have been on many different discussion boards and I must say, after reading all of your replys I was shocked and impressed! Not one of you was rude or demeaning....and for that I thank you all! (Thankfully today is mostly a free day for me, so I can take this time to research the materials that some of you included in your replys. )
In closing, I was asked to list some of my research findings on The Holocaust....this I will do, but not just yet...I have an idea forming in my head for a different post on that subject that hopefully we can enjoy debating! Best wishes and thanks to all!

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue May 30, 2006 10:12 am)

Hi Rapier,

Interesting post. I'm not quite sure where you stand, but the idea that Philadelphia had so many camp survivors is proof it didn't happen.

Then you mention that no one mentioned gassings in the 60's. Interesting. Norman Finkelstein mentions the same thing and goes into some detail on that in The Holocaust Industry.

You're a revisionist I can see, with some interesting insights. How Hollywood has set up the story, as in Sophie's Choice. Indeed, a Hollywood scriptwriter, Ben Hecht brought the story to America in Feb. 1943 Reader's Digest. Even mentioning "6 million" in the article.

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Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue May 30, 2006 12:41 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:
Then you mention that no one mentioned gassings in the 60's. Interesting. Norman Finkelstein mentions the same thing and goes into some detail on that in The Holocaust Industry.


Peter Novick into even more detail, in fact, devotes almost an entire chapter to the phenomena, in THE HOLOCAUST IN AMERICAN LIFE. If I remember correctly, Finkelstein wrote his book in part as an expansion on Novick's.

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Postby Freeman » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:46 pm)

Butterfly -
I would direct you to the wealth of information in the CODOH Revisionist Library for additional studies. I would strongly recommend beginning with the work, The Gas Chamber of Sherlock Holmes by Samuel Crowell which you will find at: http://www.codoh.info/incon/inconshr123.html

Regards-

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Postby MissButterfly » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:28 pm)



Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you all! It turned out to be an EXTREMELY busy week...however while I am still sifting through information...and makin notes here and there, I have to say I'm completely astonished at all that I have read!
I'm very curious about several things in my research, but I will save those questions when I have finished all the reading, and will start a new thread then....Thank you all for you help!


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