The alleged homicidal gas chambers.

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The alleged homicidal gas chambers.

Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 30, 2003 1:00 pm)

Some users on this forum say that they do not believe in the homicidal gas chambers, as alleged by the Holocaust exterminationists.

Question: Why not?

:D

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 30, 2003 1:51 pm)

Just a few a reasons why not:

The methods alleged are contrary to science.

The methods alleged are absurdly inefficient.

There is no physical evidence of alleged acts that are completely physical.

There is no cyanide residues to support the allegations.

There are no human remains to substantiate the allegations.

Photographic evidence does not support the allegations.

Testimonies are beyond absurd, reaching to heights of fantastic impossibilities.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 31, 2003 11:14 am)

From the Leuchter Report:
http://64.143.9.197/books/leuchter/leuchter.toc.html

METHODOLOGY
The procedures involved in the study and forensic analysis which resulted in the report were as follows:

A general background study of the available material.

An on-site inspection and forensic examination of the facilities in question which included the taking of physical data (measurements and construction information) and a considered removal of physical sample material (brick and mortar) which was returned to the United States for chemical analysis.

A consideration of recorded and visual (on-site) logistic data.

A compilation of the acquired data.

An analysis of the acquired information and comparison of this information with known and proven design, procedural and logistic information and requirements for the design, fabrication and operation of actual gas chambers and crematories.

A consideration of the chemical analysis of the materials acquired on site.

Conclusions based on the acquired evidence.


Fred Leuchter did this in 1988.

So it took 43 years until finally someone decided to check out the sites in Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek, where millions of Jews were allegedly murdered in gas chambers.

Neither the IMT/NMT nor the German Frankfurt courts for the Auschwitz trials found this to be necessary. One wonders why not.

:D

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Postby steve » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 31, 2003 2:26 pm)

Sailor:
Some users on this forum say that they do not believe in the homicidal gas chambers, as alleged by the Holocaust exterminationists.

Question: Why not?



You must admit, the H story, at least on the surface, is hard to believe. Nazi's rounding up jews, transporting them all over Europe, to toss them in Gas Chambers. Plus, a group of competent people (revisionists), bring to our attention, many contradictions with that tale. Now, the main 'evidence' of that Big H are the so called eye-witnesses. However, it is clear a significant many of them are liars. Even some Yehuda Bauer (Sp?), a person involved in some H museum in Israel, claims that about half of the testimonies are ridiculous. Another thing, looked what happened to the 'witnesses' in the Zundel trial. Finally, why did not many 'witnesses' come forward to testify in the Irving Trial?

So, if the main evidence of an already hard to believe tale is witnesses, and many of the witnesses turn out to be liars, or that the stories told do not add up, then there is only one reasonable conclusion.


I mean, just look at the stories told by so many 'eye-witnesses'. They are actually comical.

I'll tell you all what. Try to come up with a legend (NOT the Big H), that mostly everyone agreed was true, where many of the stroies associated with the tale turned out to be as absurd as so many H tales we read about. If you can, then that would imply the plethora of absurdites associated with the Big H can not be used as conclusively as I am using it now to discredit the H.

This seems like a fair, relevant challenge.

Steve

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 31, 2003 3:21 pm)

Steve said:

I'll tell you all what. Try to come up with a legend (NOT the Big H), that mostly everyone agreed was true, where many of the stroies associated with the tale turned out to be as absurd as so many H tales we read about. If you can, then that would imply the plethora of absurdites associated with the Big H can not be used as conclusively as I am using it now to discredit the H.


Here's just a few.

Witchcraft/sorcery:

- we had 'confessions'
- we had 'eyewitnesses'
- we had official acceptance by governments and laws to enforce that acceptance

UFO/alien abductions:

- we have an amazing 'convergence of evidence' which points to them as fact
- we have thousands upon thousands of 'survivors' & 'eyewitnesses'
- we have books
- we have nurturing focus groups of 'survivors' that meet & share their experiences

flat earth and earth centered planetary system

- was 'scientific fact'
- was mandated by government bodies

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 31, 2003 7:10 pm)

I look at the alleged homicidal gassings, with HCN or CO, strictly from a technical perspective: Leuchter, Rudolf, Lüftle et al.
I like Leuchter, a typical American technician with a practical approach. He is not the academic type, he looked at the gassing strictly from his experience with US penal gas chambers.

And why not!

Zyklon B is not recommended for use in an execution gas chamber generally because of the time it takes to drive the gas from the inert carrier. Up until now, the only efficient method has been to generate the gas on-site by chemical reaction of sodium cyanide and 18% sulfuric acid. Recently, a design for a gas generator has been completed which will be utilized in the two (2) man gas chamber at the Missouri State Penitentiary, Jefferson City, Missouri. The author is the design consultant for this execution gas chamber


With other words, Zyklon B is a fumigant which is on purpose designed to discharge HCN gradually. Of course it is possible to kill people with Zyklon B, but not in the times claimed by exterminationists.

The chamber is evacuated at a rate of once every two minutes for a 15 minute time period, providing some seven (7) complete air changes.


Leuchter is talking here of an exhaust system for execution type gas chambers with considerably less volume than the alleged gas chamber in Birkenau (20m³ against 500m³), and an exhaust system about 3 times as powerful as the one for morgue 1 Krema 2 ventilation system. The ventilation system in morgue 1, the alleged gas chamber, is less powerful than the one for morgue 2, the undressing room, the bathroom or the autopsy room.

At 2000 degrees Fahrenheit or more with a 2500 cfm blowered air supply from the outside, modern retorts will cremate one corpse in 1.25 hours.


He has also exposed many omissions, errors, fabrications and distortions within the accounts of Höß, Nyiszli, Tauber, Bendel, Vrba and several other attestants to mass gassings. A number of these flaws are major, and seriously diminish the sources' overall reliability and credibility. The overwhelming weight of evidence (much of it based on the laws of physics, which do not bend for either Jews or Revisionists) indicates that if gassings did occur they did not occur in the manner described explicitly in these accounts.

Leuchter shot a deadly torpedo into the battleship Auschwitz, he was the one who opened the bottle and let the genie out, and nobody, not even God’s darlings, are able to put it back in.

:D

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 31, 2003 7:11 pm)

from the legal side of things:

It is often stated that the alleged gas chambers of Auschwitz were not only 'accepted' at Nuremberg*, but also at subsequent German trials.

One must keep in mind that the decision of the International Military Tribunal to endorse the claim of gassing at Auschwitz had far-reaching repercussions, because it was stipulated at the time that the judgments arrived at by that tribunal would be binding for all subsequent legal proceedings.

Hence, all later trials in Germany on the subject of Auschwitz, whether conducted by the occupying powers or by the Germans themselves, have never contested the gassings since their occurrence was not something that could be disputed. The accused had no practical way to defend themselves as the fraudulent gas chambers had been 'accepted as fact'.

- Hannover

* without proof, no forensic study whatsoever, no technical examination of allegations, no cross examinations, etc.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 31, 2003 9:52 pm)

But listen to this:

The Witnesses

In the year 1983 a book was published in Germany: Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas (National Socialist mass Killings with Poison Gas) by Kogon, Langbein, Rückerl et al. It is in German and I have a copy. The book was written in response to the numerous skeptical comments about the Holocaust by revisionists in Germany in the 1980’s. Practical all the stuff we hear from Germano-Holocaust defenders is taken from that book.

The chapter on Auschwitz in that book is by Georges Wellers, a Russian Jew who emigrated to France. He was also an Auschwitz survivor. (And did not get along with Mattogno) And he only offers the name of witnesses and some of their testimonies for the alleged gassings in Auschwitz. No results from forensic tests or review of engineering drawings etc.

Perpetrator witnesses are Höß, Broad and Dr. Kremer. He further quotes Richard Baer (the last Auschwitz I commandant) and Walter Dejaco, the contractor of the crematoriums in Birkenau. He additionally mentions the testimonies of 40 SS-men who were sentenced in Poland in 1947 and 19 SS-men from the Frankfurt trials in Germany, who admitted that they saw with their own eyes gas chambers in operation in Birkenau.

Wellers mentions 70 witnesses of the SS total who said that they knew or saw the gas chambers in Birkenau.

Of the former inmates there are these gas chamber witnesses:

Five from Birkenau escaped prisoners, whose report was published in November 1944 in the US as WRB (including Vrba and Wetzler).

Four members of the Sonderkommando who died in Birkenau but wrote their story and burried them in bottles close to the crematoriums. These bottles were found during excavations after the war.

Three members of the “Sonderkommando” who already testified in 1945 before Polish authorities: Stanislaw Jankowski, Szlama Dragon and Henryk Tauber.

Finally there were the testimonies of two French doctors, Andre Lettich and Sigismund Paul Bendel.

After the war a couple of “Sonderkommando” survivors confirmed the testimonies of the others: Milton Buki, Filip and Dov Paisikovic, Filip Müller, Avram Dragon, Szyja Rosenblum, Silberberg, Dr. Miklos Nyizli, Mandelbaum.

Wellers concludes that in general there is hardly a testimony of one former inmate from Auschwitz which did not mention the gas chambers in Birkenau.

:D

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 01, 2003 12:47 am)

Sailor ended the previous post with:
Wellers concludes that in general there is hardly a testimony of one former inmate from Auschwitz which did not mention the gas chambers in Birkenau.


- Well, knowing full well what advantage$ they can receive from such lies, knowing the 'encouragement' they certainly receive from other Jews, and knowing that the courts have accepted gassings as fact without ever proving them....then it's not hard to cherry pick 'witnesses' to serve the agenda.

- Revisionists dare to ask: 'What did they actually say'?
It's one thing to claim there's a body of 'witnesses', but quite another matter when we look at what they allege...specifically. One by one as we look at their stories we see that they contradict science, contradict logic, and contradict each other.
Just because someone says something doesn't make it true. IOW, no matter how many people allege nonsense, it's still nonsense. There are many, many people who claim to see visions of the Virgin Mother every year, but do we accept that as fact? Is there real evidence? And that brings us back to 'eyewitnesses-survivors-confessors' of withcraft and UFO/alien abductions.

- Then we never hear about the thousands that retreated with the SS when they were given a choice to go or stay and be 'liberated' by the Communists....most chose to go with the SS; AND there's the thousands of potential 'witnesses/survivors' which were left behind.
But then why would the nasty SS allow all these thousands of potential 'witnesses' in the 1st place?

The story shoots itself in the foot, Revisionists are merely the messengers.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 01, 2003 3:11 am)

And now listen here:

The blue staining on the exterior walls of the delousing chambers is mentioned in a remarkable letter by a former Auschwitz tour guide, Janusz Patek, published in the New York City Tribune (November 29, 1989, p. 13). Patek wrote that Auschwitz museum staff and guides believed that the claimed fatality figures for the camp were grossly inflated, but that they had to keep repeating the stories to get tips from the tourists. Epidemics, he said, were the main killers at Auschwitz, claiming the lives of "about one hundred thousand" inmates and around ten percent of the camp staff. Regarding Leuchter's report, he wrote that "This pretentious, multipage report discovers what a good students [sic] in chemistry of an average Polish high school see with their naked eyes, namely total lack of deposits of blue salts of ferrocyanides in the gas chamber walls. On the other hand everybody is struck by the intensity of the blue discoloration of the plaster and even the outside brick work of the delousing building."


http://www.resistance.com/Hayward/hay1.html

:D
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Postby steve » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 01, 2003 7:31 am)

Hannover,

I think you may have missed my point.

You gave examples of tales that people believed at one time, but no longer believe.

I wanted an example of something, besides the Big H, that mostly everyone believes(today), but that many tales associated with it are obvious nonsense.

You see, one (of thousands!) reason I'm certain the H is nonsense is because there are far too many outrageous tales associated with it. So, unless one can come up with a generally accepted tale that has many outrageous lies associated with it, one of my reasons for disputing the H seems valid.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:12 am)

Or this:

Third, the rumor that people were being gassed by the Nazis was widespread in certain regions of Europe during the war, and led to some people believing in gassings without seeing any evidence for them. Others, of course, heard the rumors and believed them for a time, only to reject them later. For example, in December 1942 Maria van Herwaaden was sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau for having sexual intercourse with a Polish forced laborer who worked with her on an Austrian farm. During the train journey from Vienna to Auschwitz Herwaaden was told by a Gypsy woman that they would all be gassed on arrival. Shortly after she arrived in Auschwitz Herwaaden was taken with other women into a building where their hair, both head and pubic, was shaved and their clothes were taken from them. They were then moved into a large, cold concrete room without windows. They were told they were to have a shower. The women were absolutely terrified because they were sure they were about to be gassed, as the Gypsy had said. However, to their great relief, only water flowed from the shower heads. Herwaaden remained in Auschwitz until January 1945, and although she witnessed numerous deaths by suicide on the electric fences and thousands of deaths by disease she saw no evidence of gassings, shootings or any other types of extermination.[7] There are numerous examples of internees even hearing and believing rumors of gassings in camps where gassings are now claimed by orthodox scholars not to have taken place.


http://www.resistance.com/Hayward/hay1.html

:D

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 01, 2003 11:50 am)

It is well known that the BBC broadcast false gassing tales into Europe during WWII. The Allies also dropped leaflets which spread the lie of 'gassings'; both had a propaganda/conditioning effect upon the population to be sure.

In regards to Steve's point:
I wanted an example of something, besides the Big H, that mostly everyone believes(today), but that many tales associated with it are obvious nonsense.


I suggest that there are hundreds of thousands of people who still believe in UFO abductions, withcraft, visions of the Virgin Mother; which I previously mentioned. But let's not quibble, what we really need to examine in comparison is the belief in religious tales which are commonly accepted today. A few:

the virgin birth - believed in, but obviously absurd

parting of the Red Sea - believed in, but obviously absurd

God appointing Jews as the 'Chosen Ones - believed in, but obviously
absurd

the Israelites and the 'exodus' - believed in, but pure mythology

voodoo - believed in, practiced by many, obviously absurd

Christ's resurrection from the dead - believed in, but mere fantasy

And the mother of all religious/superstitious beliefs....the 'gas chambers' & '6,000,000'. - believed in, but being dethroned as we speak.

The 'holocau$t' Industry has met the enemy, it is themselves.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 01, 2003 1:26 pm)

Says Robert Faurisson: "Show me or draw me a Nazi gas chamber!".

It sounds somewhat corny. But I don’t think that sofar anyone has come up with something. So I tried my hand on this myself, except that I changed the instructions slightly:

“Design and draw me a gas chamber to execute 2000 people at a time!”

It is fun. I had to make the following decisions:

-Size of the chamber.

-How to get 2000 people into the chamber without putting up a fuzz.

-Choice of poison gas (nerve gas, CO?)

-How to insert the gas into the chamber (under negative atmospheric pressure?)

-And how to exhaust the gas afterwards (with nerve gas the whole surroundings may be poisoned)

-And how to remove the bodies afterwards and what to do with them.

-And how to keep the whole thing secrete

I have to admit that I was not successful on this. I gave up. Of course I could copy Leuchter’s design for one or two executees, that would be simple. But 2000 at a shot, no way.

:D
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Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 01, 2003 3:53 pm)

Sailor wrote:“Design and draw me a gas chamber to execute 2000 people at a time!”


I don't think it would be hard to kill humans en masse if chickens and cattle can be processed for slaughter.

Let's ignore the 2000 figure as fantasy for a moment and say 200. We can have ten gaschambers later if we want. (But not designed like the ones claimed at Belzec, Sobibor, or Treblinka, which is a ridiculous layout.)

Rapidly march five across and forty deep into a long concrete room with a large door on each end and working showers inside. No need to pack them too tight if you are going to use poison gas. Shut the door and then a gasoline engine would be started or a valve opened to pump in exhaust containing about 5% CO. After an accepted length of time to ensure everyone's brain-death, you stop the motor or switch off the gas and open the other door to unload the bodies.

It would help if the entrance was raised a little so that they went down into the gaschamber, and the exit was lower still so that the corpses were emptied downward onto dollies on tracks to the crematorium without right-angle turns. The showers could then be used to clean the gaschamber hall for the next use. The ten gaschambers, would be parallel and the tracks leading to the ovens like the spokes of a semicircular wheel with the crematoria ovens at the locus, so a corpse from any chamber would be able to be loaded easily into any oven muffle or a central collection point.

Even better than gasoline engines would be a Holzgas generator using wood or coal to produce the CO. And when ready, a fan blows the gas into the gaschamber at an ideal concentration of a few percent that minimizes the risk of explosion. The ventilator would circulate the gas to ensure even and rapid distribution, and overpressure from the gas-generator fan would blow the rest out a vent hole and up a chimney.

We could have also used ordinary town-gas which contains a fair quantity of CO and use a carburetion system with a forced-air venturi to ensure a safe but lethal concentration of this explosive mixture.

An alternative to poison gas could be water rushing into a chamber. The victims would drown quickly, and after brain-death is certain to have occurred, the water drained out and the chamber emptied. River water is cheap!

Another option would be a railroad car fumigation chamber using HCN. This would warm Zyklon B crystals from a hopper and blow the air around the chamber until the gassing is complete, and then with the pull of a lever, evacuate the gas and bring in fresh air. In this case we are limited only by how many victims can be stuffed inside a cattle-car. To get the magic 2000 figure we could configure an entire locomotive tunnel as a gaschamber and pipe in either industrially-generated CO or HCN generated by chemical reaction, for the cheapest method possible and blown in with a recirculating fan.

Another idea would be to follow Jim Jones' lead and give groups poisoned Kool-Aide to drink. They could be ordered to drink in unison, or if they don't drink anything they will be dead in a few days anyway from dehydration--which rather begs the question as to why you have to kill people already behind barbed wire at all. Nature will take its course in a few days and an electrified fence will keep them from going anywhere.

Or hey, how about one of those gamma-ray food irradiators? The cattle cars just pass through and get nuked enough to kill an elephant in a few hours. Then you just dump the "cargo" for disposal at an industrial incinerator or fertilizer factory.

Or you could cram them into a derelict ship and send it to Davy Jones' Locker. Or maybe shoot them into space on an old Skylab. They would not last long there. Or into the sun and kill both birds will one stone by simultaneously killing and cremating! Or, okay, seriously--just fill up a C-5 cargo plane or even a 747 without the seats, and when you get to altitude blow the pressure seal and let them suffocate. That would work. But you would have to make sure they don't have any box cutters with them. Perhaps a metal detector at the door...

:twisted:

Killing is the easy part. The hard part is rounding up the varmints in the first place. Which again begs the question as to why "extermination centers" were needed. I just can't fathom the idea that the SS wet their pants at the sight of shooting those whom they considered vermin.

:roll:

Here is a railcar fumigation chamber and an interesting article.



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