The alleged homicidal gas chambers.

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Hannover
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jun 04, 2003 9:19 am)

Scott said:
However, this doesn't mean they lied--they just went beyond what they actually knew. We can't prove that there wasn't any homicidal gassings with a gasoline engine started up for the occasion and not needing to be loaded of course. However, Mr. Sailor has pointed out some obvious problems with the process-engineering of gassing so many according to the eyewitness statements.


Good try Scoot, but they lied. They stated, in specific terms, what they 'witnessed'. Those specifics are absurd, never happened, could not have happened, they lied.
see my earlier examples:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=338&start=15

It is incumbent upon the accusers to prove their assertions, Revisionists can only demonstrate the absurdity, irrationality, and scientific impossibility of what they claim. People that make such claims are liars...only when it comes to the so called 'holocau$t' are liars let off the hook. Only with the so called 'holocau$t' do perjurers go unpunished.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:12 am)

Hannover wrote:
Scott wrote:However, this doesn't mean they lied--they just went beyond what they actually knew. We can't prove that there wasn't any homicidal gassings with a gasoline engine started up for the occasion and not needing to be loaded of course. However, Mr. Sailor has pointed out some obvious problems with the process-engineering of gassing so many according to the eyewitness statements.

Good try Scoot, but they lied. They stated, in specific terms, what they 'witnessed'. Those specifics are absurd, never happened, could not have happened, they lied.
see my earlier examples:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=338&start=15

You must be confusing me with an H-Believer.

Are the hundreds of UFO abductees liars? Not necessarily.

Are their stories plausible? Not really.

Does this discount the possibility of extraterrestrial life. No.

It is incumbent upon the accusers to prove their assertions, Revisionists can only demonstrate the absurdity, irrationality, and scientific impossibility of what they claim. People that make such claims are liars...only when it comes to the so called 'holocau$t' are liars let off the hook. Only with the so called 'holocau$t' do perjurers go unpunished.

And once that happens, then what? The Gospel of Hate is "exposed" from Human Soap to pedal-powered brain bashing machines.

The world is still left with feel-good (or feel-bad) myths, including the Holo-Cult. Religions don't have to rationally prove anything. They just need Believers.

Neither side likes Skeptics.
:)

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jun 05, 2003 9:33 am)

When someone willfully says something that is false they are a liar, plain & simple.
If I say I have 10 million dollars in the bank and do not, I am a liar.....yet I suppose it's "possible" that I may someday. Which is certainly something that the "witnesses" to gassings cannot claim, their stories are utterly impossible as alleged.

And once they're exposed, there can be an end to forced 'education' and cultural thuggery for the benefit of judeo-supremacists. There will be an end to the shakedown and there should be criminal prosecutions for fraud and perjury. Yes, many reputations will be severely damaged, too bad; a lot of good people have been executed and harmed by the fraud of 'gas chambers'.

The false allegations of 'gas chambers' are a crime against humanity.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jun 05, 2003 11:03 am)

From: Auschwitz: Das Ende einer Legende (Auschwitz: The End of a Legend) (German)
By Mattogno
http://www.codoh.com/inter/intnackt/intnackausch3.html

Unter den 80.000 (in Worten: achtzigtausend) Dokumenten in Moskau, in den vollständig erhaltenen Archiven der Bauleitung, hat Pressac keinen einzigen Beweis für die Existenz auch nur einer einzigen Hinrichtungsgaskammer in Auschwitz und/oder Birkenau entdeckt!

Among the 80,000 (eighty thousand) documents in Moscow, and the archives of the construction management which completely survived, Pressac did not find a single proof for the existence of even a single execution gas chamber in Auschwitz and/or Birkenau!


Fred Leuchter described in some detail the design criteria for US execution type gas chambers. It stands to reason to expect something similar for the “gas chambers” in Auschwitz/Birkenau, after all allegedly 400,000 people alone were gassed in Krema II.

But Pressac did not find anything?!

fge

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jun 05, 2003 7:01 pm)

The Germans destroyed all documents.

No problem!

From Die Argumente (The Arguments) (German)
By Graf
http://www.vho.org/D/argumente/index.html#Inhalt

Wie man Beweise herbeizaubert (How to create Proof through Magic)

Da sich die Verfechter des orthodoxen Holocaust-Bildes unmöglich mit Zeugenaussagen begnügen konnten, waren sie gezwungen, eine Anzahl von Dokumenten vorzulegen, die den Gaskammervölkermord angeblich beweisen. Dabei boten sich ihnen grundsätzlich zwei Möglichkeiten an:
· Sie konnten Fälschungen herstellen.
· Sie konnten echte Dokumente bewusst verzerrt deuten.
Die zweite Methode kam wesentlich häufiger zur Anwendung. Carlo Mattogno charakterisiert sie wie folgt [16]:
Die Nürnberger Inquisitoren schufen (...) jene absurde Deutungsmethode, die es ermöglicht, in jedes beliebige Dokument etwas hineinzuinterpretieren, das dort nicht steht. Ausgangslage dieser Deutungsmethode ist das - unbegründete und willkürliche - Axiom, dass die NS-Behörden sogar in den geheimsten Dokumenten eine Art Tarnsprache benutzt hätten, deren Schlüssel die Nürnberger Inquisitoren selbstverständlich entdeckt zu haben behaupteten. So erfolgte die systematische Fehldeutung von an und für sich unverfänglichen Urkunden im Sinne der Ausrottungsthese.
Das bekannteste Beispiel für diese Art der Fehldeutung stellt die Interpretation des Wortes „End-lösung" dar, das zum Synonym für „Judenausrottung" wird (...)
In Tat und Wahrheit existiert nicht der geringste Beweis dafür, dass „Endlösung" je einen Bezug zum angeblichen „Hitlerplan zur Ausrottung der europäischen Juden" aufgewiesen hätte; es gibt sogar Urkunden, die das Gegenteil beweisen. Diese Dokumente beziehen sich auf die von den Nationalsozialisten verfolgte Politik hinsichtlich der jüdischen Auswanderung ...


Translation:

The defenders of the orthodox Holocaust story could not possibly be satisfied with witness testimonies only, they also had to submit a number of documents which allegedly proved the gas chamber genocide. They had basically two possibilities:

They could manufacture forgeries.
Or they could deliberately misinterprete genuine documents.

The second method was considerably more frequently utilized. Carlo Mattogno characterized them as follows:

The Nuremberg inquisitors created […] that absurd method of interpretation, which makes it possible, to interprete something into any document, that is not in it. The basis for this method is the unfounded and arbitrary axiom that the NS-authorities even in the most secret documents used a kind of camouflage language, the keye to which the Nuremberg inquisators, to be sure, alleged to have discovered. Thus followed the systematic misinterpretation of documents which were completely unsuspicious to the extermination thesis.

The most familiar example for this type of misinterpretation is the interpretation of the word “final solution”, which becomes a synonym for “extermination of Jews”[…] Actually it is the truth that not the slightest proof for this exists, that “final solution” was ever connected to the alleged “Hitler plan for the extermination of the European Jews”; there even exist documents which prove the opposite. These documents refer to the policy as followed by the National-Socialists referring to the Jewish emigration…


In the anti-revisionist bible on which the German Holocaust defenders swear: Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas. Eine Dokumentation. (Nationalsocialistic Mass Killings by Poison Gas. A Documentation),
concocted by Kogon, Langbein and Rückerl et al., the section "Unmasking the Code Terms" by Adalbert Rückerl enlightens the reader to the effect that
he can only understand the documents correctly if he interprets them as saying something other than what they actually say..

Says Adalbert
:D
fge

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jun 06, 2003 10:43 pm)

Faurisson about the French historian Jacques Baynac, who can't find the "gas chambers":

Given this lack of any direct proof, he continued, it will now be necessary to seek an indirect proof. Because one cannot prove that Nazi gas chambers existed, he goes on to write, it will instead be necessary to prove that it is impossible that they did not exist! Specifically, he writes:

"If scholarly history cannot, because of the lack of documentation, establish the reality of a fact, it can, by means of documentation, establish that the unreality of this fact is itself unreal."


http://www.vho.org/aaargh/engl/FaurisArch/RF960903.html

I love it!
:D
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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jun 07, 2003 12:51 am)

Sailor wrote:In the anti-revisionist bible on which the German Holocaust defenders swear: Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas. Eine Dokumentation. (Nationalsocialistic Mass Killings by Poison Gas. A Documentation),
concocted by Kogon, Langbein and Rückerl et al., the section "Unmasking the Code Terms" by Adalbert Rückerl enlightens the reader to the effect that
he can only understand the documents correctly if he interprets them as saying something other than what they actually say..

Says Adalbert


but in the following links,and I think its from the same book, they quote evidence for the codeword theses:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniqu ... st-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniqu ... st-02.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniqu ... st-03.html

if someone claims something and backs it up with evidence, how can you attack him?

Mattogno wrote:
unfounded and arbitrary axiom

there seems to be evidence for this, so wheres the unfounded part and the arbitrary axiom?

----
there will be a schoolary debate between belivers and revisionists elsewhere. go to:

The Scholars Debate!

or search google for

RODO.H (without dot!)
Last edited by Germania on Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jun 07, 2003 3:09 am)

I see Nizkor has not one single original document in the bunch to back up their creative translations. Why should we believe what Nizkor says? Just saying so doesn't make it so.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jun 07, 2003 5:19 am)

Germania wrote:if someone claims something and backs it up with evidence, how can you attack him?

Mattogno does not agree with McCarthy and McVay interpretations. See his essay Sonderbehandlung (German) http://vho.org/VffG/1997/2/Mattogno2.html

This piece is a response to the French-Jewish historian Georges Wellers false interpretation of the word “Sonderbehandling” in the Korherr report.

Mattogno proves that the word here means “resettlement”.
:D
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jun 07, 2003 12:23 pm)

Odd that 'sonderbehandlung' can only mean 'extermination' according to the Believers, it could more properly be asssigned a positive meaning...to be given special medical treatment, sent to another location, resettled elsewhere.

On this alleged 'code word', we see here that former SS officer-statistician, Richard Korherr, refutes the fraudulent assertion of 'extermination' that is commonly assigned to his report.

Korherr letter to Der Spiegel, n.28, 7/1977, p72-74:
The well-known, racially persecuted writer H.G. Adler, previously resident in Prague, now in London, wrote in the foreword to the second edition to his extraordinary book Theresienstadt 1941-1945 in 1960:

"It has definitely been determined that the designation of Dr. Korherr as SS-statistician...is not true, because he never belonged to the SS and has been rehabilitated insofar as his behaviour in the National Socialist years is concerned."

Unfortunately, Der Spiegel is publishing the claim of the English historian Irving that in the spring of 1942, at Himmler's order, I calculated the number of Jewish victims. In fact, these figures along with the text were delivered to me in completed form by the Reich Security Main Office (RSHA) with the order that not one word or figure was to be changed.

The statement that I had claimed in this regard that more than a million Jews had died as a result of special treatment in the camps in German-occupied Poland and in the Warthegau is also incorrect. I have to protest against the word "died" in this context.

It was precisely the term ***"special treatment"*** (sonderbehandlung)that motivated me to inquire of the RSHA by telephone what this term meant. I received the answer that it referred to Jews who would be settled in the District of Lublin.

Dr. Richard Korherr
Braunschweig


source:
Nr. 28, July 1977, p. 72-74, Der SPIEGEL, an article commenting on the controversy surrounding David Irving's book "Hitler's War" under the title : HITLER -- Kecke Revision.
Korherr's letter appears among a series of reactions ("Hitler gegen Irving") by people like Robert M. W. Kempner or the historians John Toland and Hans-Heinrich Wilhelm An English translation of the letter was presented during Udo Walendy's testimony at the Zündel trial 1988.

Here are examples of 'sonder_______' which demonstrate it's non-extermination meaning:

sonderbehandlung and Crematory II:
http://www.russgranata.com/sonder.html

Kaltenbrunner at Nuremberg:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/04-12-46.htm

Hindenburg letter of 1933:
http://www.cwporter.com/HINDENBURG.htm

at the Cologne-Bonn airport, 2001:
http://www.cwporter.com/scbonnairport.htm

"SPECIAL ACTION" IN THE GROCERY STORE - http://www.cwporter.com/specialaction.htm

I have also seen that inmates 'specially lodged' is said to mean 'gassed'. There seems to be no end to absurdities of the standard 'holocau$t story.


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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Blow Warm Air through the Zyklon B granules

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:19 pm)

Holocaust revisionism should not be saddled with orthodoxy of its own. The Leuchter Report had some serious errors which have been exposed by a number of authors including myself. Those errors should not be blindly defended as if they are a part of some new revisionist religion.

For one thing, one certainly can commit mass murder with Zyklon-B if one knows what one is talking about. The following quote from Leuchter which appeared here earlier is a serious mistake.

QUOTE:
Zyklon B is not recommended for use in an execution gas chamber generally because of the time it takes to drive the gas from the inert carrier. Up until now, the only efficient method has been to generate the gas on-site by chemical reaction of sodium cyanide and 18% sulfuric acid. Recently, a design for a gas generator has been completed which will be utilized in the two (2) man gas chamber at the Missouri State Penitentiary, Jefferson City, Missouri. The author is the design consultant for this execution gas chamber. END OF QUOTE

Whose recommendation is Leuchter talking about? What does he mean by "efficient." Fred Leuchter has admitted that he never even witnessed an execution--at least not until 1988. If he had, he might have known just how horribly "inefficient" American execution gas chambers truly are.

The DEGESCH chambers did drive out all of the cyanide from the Zyklon-B granules in a few minutes with a draft of forced warm air, approximately ten degrees Fahrenheit above cyanide's boiling point of 78.6 degrees Fahrenheit. There is simply no reason, scientific or otherwise, to insist that the DEGESCH delousing chambers could not have been used for mass executions. And the large, superbly-designed railroad delousing tunnels in Budapest and elsewhere had everything needed.

To insist as Robert Faurisson has, again and again, that such gas chambers could not possibly have worked for mass murder is absolutely nuts. Even nuttier is the fact that quite a number of revisionist hang-ons have gone along with him--even going so far as to suppress my work if they possibly could. The revisionist movement, for want of a better expression, has gained nothing from such mindless orthodoxy.

The Nazis certainly could have committed mass gassings with technology that was readily available to them--often in the concentration camps themselves--and for which they had all of the expertise and experience needed. But, such gassings would have been totally different in nature from the absurd and unbelievable tales we have been given by the Jews.

Please read at least some of my essays on www.vho.org

Friedrich Paul Berg
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jun 21, 2003 11:35 pm)

Mr. Berg said:
The Nazis certainly could have committed mass gassings with technology that was readily available to them--often in the concentration camps themselves--and for which they had all of the expertise and experience needed. ***But, such gassings would have been totally different in nature from the absurd and unbelievable tales we have been given by the Jews.***


While Zyklon-B can certainly kill you (why they would use Zyklon-B....cyanide..in the first place for alleged mass murder...when they possessed large quantities of much more efficient nerve gasses, like Tabun?), the tall tale methods alleged in the supposed homicidal gas chambers did not incorporate the methods used in the actual delousing chambers as Berg has concisely pointed out.

It's another case of the 'holocau$t' Industry shooting themselves in the foot with their own lies. The wacky things they allege about 'gas chamber' methodology reveal their story to be utter nonsense.

Here's another of Berg's summaries about Zyklon-B usage:
No one regardless of how reckless or determined they might be would get very far using Zyklon-B for anything without consulting some experienced professionals and/or the technical literature on the subject. If they didn't do some serious consulting, they would almost certainly injure or even kill themselves.

So--what did the literature say? We know what the literature said because it can be found in many libraries around the world because the stuff was used around the world. There is too much to recite here--but the short answer is that any gassing arrangement would have looked like the standard DEGESCH gas chambers with Kreislauf or thorough circulation of the gasses during the actual fumigation followed by thorough circulation with fresh air to remove the cyanide during ventilation--and all accompanied by heating above about 85 degrees Fahrenheit, even in the coldest weather to prevent condensation of the toxic gas.

None of that is really there in the crazy arrangement we are supposed to believe in for Kremas 2 and 3; the claimed perforated Zyklon introduction columns are only obstructions to the entire process and make no technical sense at all.

FPBerg


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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 22, 2003 11:24 am)

Berg wrote: Holocaust revisionism should not be saddled with orthodoxy of its own. The Leuchter Report had some serious errors which have been exposed by a number of authors including myself. Those errors should not be blindly defended as if they are a part of some new revisionist religion.

For one thing, one certainly can commit mass murder with Zyklon-B if one knows what one is talking about. The following quote from Leuchter which appeared here earlier is a serious mistake.

QUOTE:
Zyklon B is not recommended for use in an execution gas chamber generally because of the time it takes to drive the gas from the inert carrier. Up until now, the only efficient method has been to generate the gas on-site by chemical reaction of sodium cyanide and 18% sulfuric acid. Recently, a design for a gas generator has been completed which will be utilized in the two (2) man gas chamber at the Missouri State Penitentiary, Jefferson City, Missouri. The author is the design consultant for this execution gas chamber. END OF QUOTE

Whose recommendation is Leuchter talking about? What does he mean by "efficient." Fred Leuchter has admitted that he never even witnessed an execution--at least not until 1988. If he had, he might have known just how horribly "inefficient" American execution gas chambers truly are.

Leuchter has only experience with US execution type gas chambers, he can only compare with those. Of course anyone could commit suicide by opening the gas valve and putting his head into the oven. This is not what we are talking about.

It is my understanding that Zyklon B was purposely designed by Degesch to release the HCN gas gradually, in order that it can be used and applied in dwellings, housings etc. without endangering the fellow who distributes it. If it was suitable for executions, why did the US then not make use of it?

There is simply no reason, scientific or otherwise, to insist that the DEGESCH delousing chambers could not have been used for mass executions. And the large, superbly-designed railroad delousing tunnels in Budapest and elsewhere had everything needed.

If mass execution means the killing of ten people, sure: they can be overpowered, handcuffed, shackled and put into one of those Degesch 10 m3 delousing chambers.

If mass execution means the killing of 100 people, again they could be overpowered, handcuffed, shackled, taken into morgue 1 of Krema II with 200 m3, strapped to some benches. An SS man then could put a gas mask on, and distribute a couple of cans of Zyklon B on the floor. Then wait an hour or two until the HCN gas is out of the pellets, switch on the exhaust blowers for four hours. Enter the morgue, remove the discharged pellets, and the bodies are moved into the cremation ovens upstairs. And holes in the ceiling would also not be required.

If mass execution means the killing of 2000 or more people, well, here I stumble. To use trains filled with people in delousing tunnels? I don’t quite understand how they work:
Image
It appears that at one end of the tunnel are the circulation and exhaust fans installed. But where is the HCN gas generator?

One possibility is to have something as shown for the 10 m3 fumigation chambers, with a remotely operated can opener and a heater. Something like this would require for the 400 m3 tunnel 40 cans of Zyklon B, and for the larger 1600 m3 tunnel 160 cans. Maybe that stuff came also in drums?

The other possibility is that the fumigationist would put on a gas mask and place a can or so of Zyklon B pellets on the floor of each wagon (there is no need to fumigate the outside of the train, or is there?), leave the door open and get the hell out of there. And operate the fans and blowers as soon as he is outside. This method cannot be used with the wagons full of people IMO. Or would he place the pellets inside the tunnell but outside the train? Would the doors of the wagons be left open in order to get the gas inside, with all the people in?

Please read at least some of my essays on www.vho.org

I read it all.

:D
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Railroad Delousing Tunnels

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 22, 2003 1:45 pm)

I doubt whether Sailor could possibly have read Appendices A & B to my essay "Typhus and the Jews." I suggest he find that essay and the appendices on VHO.org.

As to exactly why Zyklon B was never used for executions in the US is simply not known to me and all I can do is speculate. My principal speculation is that DEGESCH and the American Cyanimid Co., the distributor in the US, did not make it available for executions since they would have been primarily interested in a much larger market where the safety of Zyklon-B was a major selling point. After the war, because of the Nazi gassing allegations--DEGESCH certainly wanted to distance itself as much as possible from any Nazi connections to mass murder.

In Appendix A to "Typhus and the Jews" we have the following text which unfortunately does not show the actual picture--Figure 3--on the VHO website:

QUOTE:
During the cold months of the year, the facility is heated by four furnaces so that the minimum temperature of 20-250C. (68-78.20F.) which is necessary for rapid penetration can be achieved quickly and maintained for weeks at a time. The furnaces were specially designed by the Hungarian Korompai, a member of the Board of Public Works (Baurat). They require no service or maintenance for days at a time and are unusually economical to operate.

Figure 3: The two Zyklon gasifiers (Zyklonvergaser) in the apparatus room in the bypass piping from the circulatory ductwork (Kreislaufleitung).

The chamber operates almost without interruption and is at this time probably the most modern facility of this type. END OF QUOTE

The two Zyklon gasifiers are essentially the same in principal as the arrangements for gasifying cyanide from Zyklon granules in the standard 10-cubic-meter DEGESCH fumigation chambers. Of course, the Zyklon cans for such fumigations would have been much larger for the railroad delousing tunnels--no problem at all. Facilities of this type were widely used throughout the world already before the war. The very same cattle cars that were often used for transporting Jews as well as people in general during the war, German soldiers and POW's included, could have simply been pulled into these "tunnels" without having first let the Jews, or anyone else, step out of the cattlecars. The execution process would have been childishly simple and would have involved no significant change in railway procedures since just such cattlecars were routinely fumigated, out of necessity, anyway--without people in them.

The opposition of Faurisson and some others--but never Leuchter, oddly enough--are so unforgivably assanine that they have often left me speechless. Here we have an ideal arrangement for massmurder which should, at the very least, cast the most serious doubt about the legend we are given--and yet we are saddled with people who simply don't have the brains to recognize powerful evidence when it stares them in the face. Include the likes of Mark Weber and Zuendel among "the others" as well.

Instead, Faurisson and Leuchter and their followers rely on totally ridiculous arguments such as the supposed "explosive nature of cyanide." Cyanide is only explosive in concentrations in normal air above 5.6%--which is far greater than the concentrations used for fumigation or executions. DEGESCH routinely used "furnaces" to heat not only railroad delousing tunnels as indicated by the above quote--but also, to heat ordinary barracks buildings so that the fumigation process would be effective. Obviously, the dangers of exploding cyanide were not great at all. See the quote I gave from the American Cyanimid literature in my essay: "Answer to a Challenge." So what if the alleged gas chamber rooms did not have explosion proof light switches--it meant nothing, contrary to what Leuchter had said was a major defect at Auschwitz Krema 1.

Faurisson saw all the Nazi gaschambers he would have ever needed. My answer to his ridiculous nine word challenge was effectively suppressed by Weber with some thoroughly disgraceful backing from Butz--but it is available on VHO.org. Please read it!

Friedrich Paul Berg
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 22, 2003 2:05 pm)

But what everyone agrees to here is that the alleged 'gas chambers' are pure fiction. We can argue the details, but the point is that there is no evidence to support the allegations of gassings, period.
Turning the arguments upon 'others' is to ignore the obvious... it is incumbent upon Believers to prove their allegations; they have not, they cannot.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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