The alleged homicidal gas chambers.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 01, 2003 4:36 pm)

Let's look at the specifics of so called 'eyewitnesses', here are just a few examples.

I challenge anyone to post what they believe to be credible eyewitness statements on the alleged gas chambers for discussion here.

- "eyewitness" Wiernik claimed: 1200 people fit into a 7 X 7 m gas chamber (20 people per sq.m.!), bodies of women were used for kindling, bodies burned on their own once lit, he saw a naked Jewish girl jump a 3m (9 ft.) high fence & shoot two guards, that 900,000 Jews were gassed..buried..exhumed..cremated & all traces disappeared, a Russian diesel tank engine was used for gassings.
Wiernik also claimed he saw a naked Jewish girl leap over a three-meter (9 ft.) high barbed wire fence, wrench the rifle out of the hands of a pursuing guard, shoot two other guards before she was overpowered.

- in court, 3/46, Charles Bendel said groups of 1000 Jews where killed with Zyklon-B in a room measuring 10 meters long by 4 meters wide by 1.6 meters high. When asked, how 1000 people can possibly fit in to a room of 64 square meters, he answered, with 'the German method'.

Bendel testified that 1 million were gassed at Birkenau from January 1, 1944 to Jan 18, 1945. The latest number (which has changed constantly), now says 1.25 million were gassed for the entire duration of the war. They also say the alleged gassings ceased 11/44. Once again, they can't keep their lies straight

- An "eyewitness" stated that the alleged poison gas had a delayed action, it allowed the victims to leave the gas chambers and walk to the mass graves by themselves - from: Repts. of the Polish Underground, Archiv der Polnischen Vereinigten Arbeiterpartei, 202/III,v.7,pp.120f.,quoted in: P. Longerich, op. cit.(note 271), p. 438.

- So called 'eyewitness' Daniel Bennahmias claimed the alleged gas chambers walls were PAINTED after each gassing. Well, even if true, that would simply 'lock in' the HCN in the mortar and concrete. There is no significant cyanide residue to be found which would indicate mass gassings as alleged. He also claims that he was one of the alleged 'sonderkommandos'; they were supposedly in charge of moving bodies from the alleged gas chambers. The story goes that all sonderkommandos were murdered in order to silence them.
Peculiar, Daniel Bennahmias was not killed and was in fact given a choice of staying in Auschwitz to await the 'liberating' Soviets, or to leave with the SS in retreat; he chose to go with the SS.

- According to Alexander Pechersky, gassings at Sobibor took place via a black heavy substance which exited in spirals from holes in the roof. Then the floor of the gas chamber opened up, and the bodies fell directly into wagons placed in the basement.

- Filip Mueller, whose laughable beststeller "Sonderbehandlung" Raul Hilberg quotes no less than 20 times as a source in his standard work about the "Holocaust" - described how he ate cake in a cyanide-saturated gas chamber

- Former inmate, Moshe Peer, recalled a miraculous escape from death as an eleven-year-old in the camp. In a 1993 interview with a Canadian newspaper, the French-born Peer claimed that he "was sent to the camp gas chamber at least six times...maybe children resist better, I don't know." Gazette, Montreal, Canada, August 5, 1993

- The vacuum chamber...former Treblinka prisoner Samuel Rajzman testified that during the time he was in Treblinka, Jews were "suffocated to death" there with a machine that pumped air out of death chambers. {Rajzman text in: Yuri Suhl, ed., They Fought Back (New York: 1967), p. 130.}

- 'eyewitness' Arnold Friedman's stated that he (and four others at the same time) 'survived' by breathing through a keyhole in the 'gas chamber' door at FLOSSENBERG.

- Ada Bimko (now Hadassah Rosensaft of the Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington DC): she testified to being shown by an SS officer the huge cylinders of gas in a room above the gas chamber!

- Auschwitz inmate, Regina Bialek stated: I was made to undress and taken by lorry to a gas chamber. There were seven gas chambers at Auschwitz. This particular one was underground and the lorry was able to run down the slope and straight into the chamber. Here we were tipped unceremoniously on the floor. The room was about 12 yards square and small lights on the wall dimly illuminated it. When the room was full a hissing sound was heard coming from the centre point on the floor and gas came into the room. After what seemed about ten minutes some of the victims began to bite their hands and foam at the mouth, and blood issued from their ears, eyes and mouth, and their faces went blue. I suffered from all these symptoms, together with a tight feeling at the throat. I was half conscious when my number was called out by Dr. Mengele and I was led from the chamber. I attribute my escape to the fact that the daughter of a friend of mine who was an Aryan and a doctor at Auschwitz had seen me being transported to the chamber and had told her mother, who immediately appealed to Dr. Mengele.

- In the book, 'Lest We Forget', it describes how Jews were steamed to death, and provides a diagram showing the location of the purported boiler room that produced the live steam. - 'Lest We Forget', World Jewish Congress (New York: 1943), pp.4, 6-7.

- The Polish govt. "conclusively proved" the Germans operated steam death chambers. They carried out "an on site, expert examination of the steam chambers," submitting an "expert report" to the Nuremberg Tribunal.- Nuremberg Trial Document 3311-PS, IMT "blue series"/1947-1949), vol.32, pp.152-158

- Here's more real 'evidence' - Killing in vacuum chamber, with steam, or chlorine gas -----from: W. Grossmann, Die Hölle von Treblinka, Verlag für fremdsprachige Literatur, Moscow 1947; The Black Book of Polish Jewry, Roy Publishers, New York 1943.

- "There was a blue haze after gassing with hydrocyanic acid" (which is colorless) - R. Böck, Frankfurt Public Prosecutor's Office, Ref. 4 Js 444/59, pp. 6881f.

- “In retreat the stationary gas chambers in the eastern part of the camp were restructured, even little turrets and other architectural embellishments were added so that they would look like innocent garages." - ‘The Factory of Death at Auschwitz’ Boris Polevoi, Pravda, 1945

- Communist Jew, Bruno Baum, himself a member of the 'partisans', boasted after the war: "The entire propaganda which started abroad, was made by us with the help of our Polish mates." - Bruno Baum, »Wir funken aus der Hölle« in Deutsche Volkszeitung - Zentralorgan der KPD, Berlin 31.7.1945.; cf. B. Baum

- Elan Steinberg, Executive Director of the World Jewish Congress when discussing accusations of atrocities against Germans:
"The problem is, when you investigate something as serious as this, you can not rely on eyewitnesses who, even with the best of intentions, with the best of intentions, can give you misleading information".

- David Greenburg, reviewing the memoirs of John Toland in the NY Times Book Review- 10-19-97:
"It is not necessary to wonder how, technically, such mass murder was possible. It was technically possible because it took place."
"It is fitting for us to simply repeat this truth: there is not and cannot be any debate on the existence of the gas chambers."

- "…It is not necessary to ask oneself how, technically, such a mass murder was possible. It was technically possible since it took place. Such is the point of departure required of any historical enquiry on the subject. This truth obliges us to state quite simply: there is not, there cannot be, any debate on the existence of the gas chambers." - from a declaration, published in Le Monde, feb 21, 1979. Written by Pierre Vidal-Naquet and Léon Poliakov. And signed by 34 "historians"

And so it goes with each and every 'eyewitness' to alleged gassings and their supporters. Their stories are patently absurd; but if you don't believe them you could go to jail.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:30 pm)

Scott wrote: I don't think it would be hard to kill humans en masse if chickens and cattle can be processed for slaughter.

Are they using gas chambers now for chicken and cattle? I thought that these animals were electrocuted using electro prongs.

Rapidly march five across and forty deep into a long concrete room with a large door on each end and working showers inside. No need to pack them too tight if you are going to use poison gas. Shut the door and then a gasoline engine would be started or a valve opened to pump in exhaust containing about 5% CO. After an accepted length of time to ensure everyone's brain-death, you stop the motor or switch off the gas and open the other door to unload the bodies.

This is not a design, but at best wishful thinking. You did not show what to do for example in case the victims decide not to go into the shower/gaschamber house. Someone warned them yesterday that they would be killed inside, so they tell the guards since they are getting killed in there anyways they decided to stay where they are. The SS might as well just kill them there. What arrangements does you design provide for this?


An alternative to poison gas could be water rushing into a chamber. The victims would drown quickly, and after brain-death is certain to have occurred, the water drained out and the chamber emptied. River water is cheap!

Or put 2000 victims on the Titanic and run it against some iceberg. Let’s see: With 4 Million gassed we would need 4 million/2000 =2000 Titanics.
Gee. Right.

Another option would be a railroad car fumigation chamber using HCN. This would warm Zyklon B crystals from a hopper and blow the air around the chamber until the gassing is complete, and then with the pull of a lever, evacuate the gas and bring in fresh air. In this case we are limited only by how many victims can be stuffed inside a cattle-car. To get the magic 2000 figure we could configure an entire locomotive tunnel as a gaschamber and pipe in either industrially-generated CO or HCN generated by chemical reaction, for the cheapest method possible and blown in with a recirculating fan.

Your design again is seriously lacking. It does not explain among many other things: How to get the gas into the tunnel, with one pipe? Many pipes? One long pipe with many holes? With 20 wagons per train how long would this pipe be, what pressure would be used to force the poison gas through, what poison gas density will be used, how is this controlled, what if people leave the door closed and prevent the gas from coming in? How long does the estimated gassing last, and the gas exhausting, how do we know that it is safe to enter the tunnel. And you forgot to tell us how to get rid of the bodies.
Sorry, this design seems to be rather incomplete.

Zyklon B and the German Delousing Chambers

Do you think you get 2000 or 200 people into that delousing chamber? Since the Zyklon B cannot be removed before it has completely spent all its HCN and the operator has to wait until the exhaust ventilation is completed with the HCN density at maximum less than 50 ppm, how long would the whole procedure take?
Remember, a trainload with 6000 Hungarian Jews just arrived and they all have to be taken care of!

:D

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 01, 2003 11:38 pm)

Hannover wrote:- in court, 3/46, Charles Bendel said groups of 1000 Jews where killed with Zyklon-B in a room measuring 10 meters long by 4 meters wide by 1.6 meters high. When asked, how 1000 people can possibly fit in to a room of 64 square meters, he answered, with 'the German method'.

Bendel testified that 1 million were gassed at Birkenau from January 1, 1944 to Jan 18, 1945. The latest number (which has changed constantly), now says 1.25 million were gassed for the entire duration of the war. They also say the alleged gassings ceased 11/44. Once again, they can't keep their lies straight


I could not find this mentioned under Bendel in Georges Wellers Chapter about Auschwitz in Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas by Kogon, Langbein, Rückerl et al., the bible of our Germano-exterminationists.

I wonder why not! After all these are parts of trial court protocols.

:D
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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:32 am)

From the Leuchter Report:
http://64.143.9.197/books/leuchter/leuchter.toc.html
Carbon monoxide (CO) gas, however, will be considered briefly at this point. CO gas is a relatively poor execution gas in that it takes much too long to effect death, perhaps as long as 30 minutes, and if poorly circulated, longer. In order to utilize CO, a quantity of 4,000 ppm would be required making it necessary to pressurize the chamber at approximately 2.5 atmospheres with CO


And from the essay The Diesel Gas Chambers: Myth Within A Myth by FRIEDRICH PAUL BERG:
research of Yandell Henderson and J.S. Haldane that an average carbon monoxide concentration of "4% and above," as shown on the last line of Table 2, is the amount needed to kill people in "less" than one hour of continuous exposure.


Leuchter is thinking here of CO produced in the exhaust fumes by combustion engines, especially Diesel engines which were allegedly used for such a purpose.

According to Mattogno in his “Treblinka” book Leuchter’s 2.5 atmospheres are not possible.

Mattogno calculates that at 0.5 atmosphere over-pressure the diesel engine will stall out and stop operating, which would be reached after 5 minutes or so of operation exhausting into a sealed chamber of the dimensions given for Treblinka.

The calculation is rather technical and most people would not be interested. But if there is interest I will post the calculation.

:D
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:38 am)

Sailor says:
The calculation is rather technical and most people would not be interested. But if there is interest I will post the calculation.


Yes, please, let's see it. Good to have it in the Forum archives.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:04 pm)

Mattogno’s Calculation
He makes these assumptions for Treblinka:

1 The diesel engine which was used for the alleged gassings was according to eye witnesses from a Soviet T-34 tank, a V12 cylinder, one chamber, 550 HP, 38.86 liter, max. 1900 RPM engine.

2 The alleged gas chambers are completely sealed according to eyewitness reports and also the German courts (Rückerl: NS Vernichtungslager).

3 The engine exhaust pressure is 0.5 atmosphere above amospheric pressure.

Based on this he calculates the pressures on the alleged gas chamber building with these results: 5 tons per square meter from inside out. This would give 80 tons on the ceiling of each chamber, 52 tons on the walls, 8.1 tons on the entrance door and 22.5 tons on the door for removing the bodies.

If the building would have withstood such an enormous pressure, the diesel engine would have stalled out as soon as the pressure in the chamber would reach the exhaust pressure of the engine.

According to the laws of physics the pressure in a sealed off space will increase when gas (exhaust fumes) is added to this space. The engine functions like a compressor. Based on above data an engine of 38.86 liters volume produces at 2000 RPM per minute 38.86 cubic meter per minute of exhaust gas at a pressure of 0.5 atmosphere.

The volume of the first alleged gas chamber in Treblinka was (26.5x3=) 79.5 m³ and of the second chamber (34x10=) 340 m³.

In these cases a pressure of 0.5 atmosphere would be reached after exhaust fumes of half the chamber volume is blown into the chamber, therefore (79.5÷2=) 39.75 m³ and (340÷2=) 170 m³ exhaust fumes respectively.

This amount would be reached for the first chamber in (38.25÷38.86=) less than one minute, and the second chamber in (170÷38.86=) a little more than 4 minutes.

Conclusion: If the alleged gas chambers were really hermetically sealed, the gassing procedure according to the witness statements would have come to to standstill in the first case in less than one minute, and a little more than 4 minutes for the second chamber due to the stalled diesel engine, provided the building would have withstood the pressure and not collapsed.


With other words, there was not enough time that the CO content within the alleged gas chambers could build up to the 4% level.

:D
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:00 pm)

Wouldn't that time be much lower, since it's alleged that the 'gas chambers' were occupied?

IOW, wouldn't those allegedly being gassed reduce the amount of available space being pressurized?

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jun 03, 2003 2:08 am)

Sailor wrote:
Scott wrote: I don't think it would be hard to kill humans en masse if chickens and cattle can be processed for slaughter.

Are they using gas chambers now for chicken and cattle? I thought that these animals were electrocuted using electro prongs.

I thought they used compressed-air bolts for cattle and bandsaws to slit the throat of chickens. Well, we could use electrified prongs--or electrified swimming pools for that matter.

But seriously, I helped with the extermination of jackrabbits once and gassing them with engines did not work very well. The hard part was getting them corralled, and then the fun part was going in for the "Bunny Bash" with an iron pipe (which was simple and effective).

Rapidly march five across and forty deep into a long concrete room with a large door on each end and working showers inside. No need to pack them too tight if you are going to use poison gas. Shut the door and then a gasoline engine would be started or a valve opened to pump in exhaust containing about 5% CO. After an accepted length of time to ensure everyone's brain-death, you stop the motor or switch off the gas and open the other door to unload the bodies.

This is not a design, but at best wishful thinking. You did not show what to do for example in case the victims decide not to go into the shower/gaschamber house. Someone warned them yesterday that they would be killed inside, so they tell the guards since they are getting killed in there anyways they decided to stay where they are. The SS might as well just kill them there. What arrangements does you design provide for this?

If the chambers double as showers then no problem. If they don't go in you shoot them. In the slaughtering industry they use a Judas Goat that leads the other animals to the slaughter. You could have some Sonderkommando be the first to shower as everybody queues up, and they come out all wet and rambunctious. Only when the door is shut and the water is turned off is there any panic. Now, I don't think you would want to be burning bodies on barbecue grills a few feet away or make it so anybody can see that the showers lead to the crematoria, however. The bottom line is that I can't see the layout of the Reinhardt camps' gaschambers as being very practical to "process" many people, gasoline engines or not.


An alternative to poison gas could be water rushing into a chamber. The victims would drown quickly, and after brain-death is certain to have occurred, the water drained out and the chamber emptied. River water is cheap!

Or put 2000 victims on the Titanic and run it against some iceberg. Let’s see: With 4 Million gassed we would need 4 million/2000 =2000 Titanics.
Gee. Right.

The Wilhelm Gustloff carried a lot more than that! Or you could load them onto a C-130 and drop them out the back hatch at several hundred feet altitude. They would be dead the instant they hit the water. (Here's where cattle prods come in.) Of course we are talking more like 200 again, aren't we...

Another option would be a railroad car fumigation chamber using HCN. This would warm Zyklon B crystals from a hopper and blow the air around the chamber until the gassing is complete, and then with the pull of a lever, evacuate the gas and bring in fresh air. In this case we are limited only by how many victims can be stuffed inside a cattle-car. To get the magic 2000 figure we could configure an entire locomotive tunnel as a gaschamber and pipe in either industrially-generated CO or HCN generated by chemical reaction, for the cheapest method possible and blown in with a recirculating fan.

Your design again is seriously lacking. It does not explain among many other things: How to get the gas into the tunnel, with one pipe? Many pipes? One long pipe with many holes? With 20 wagons per train how long would this pipe be, what pressure would be used to force the poison gas through, what poison gas density will be used, how is this controlled, what if people leave the door closed and prevent the gas from coming in? How long does the estimated gassing last, and the gas exhausting, how do we know that it is safe to enter the tunnel. And you forgot to tell us how to get rid of the bodies. Sorry, this design seems to be rather incomplete.

Ah, engineers! Well, I studied the diesel exhaust gas recirculation experiments in the original 1941 Bureau of Mines books and there was a considerable study on the design of the Hudson River tunnel connecting Manhattan and New Jersey. I forgot which one, Holland or Lincoln. Anyway, the design had to circulate enough air that the CO level from automobile traffic would not exceed a certain percentage. The engineering here was not exactly rocket science.Your design need only be scaled for the size of tunnel you want and the type of gas, CO or HCN. I think CO would be easier. Basically it would work in principle to the Zyklon fumigation cubicle Kreislaufprinzip I posted above. I don't see why pressure is a problem any more than introducing fresh air into the tunnel is a problem. Any excess can be vented.

As far as people sealed in their cars, well I never knew cattle cars to be anything but breezy but they must not be sealed too much or the people would suffocate anyway. But you do raise a good point on the time that it take for gassing. With duct tape they might be able to hold out a little longer.

Zyklon B and the German Delousing Chambers

Do you think you get 2000 or 200 people into that delousing chamber? Since the Zyklon B cannot be removed before it has completely spent all its HCN and the operator has to wait until the exhaust ventilation is completed with the HCN density at maximum less than 50 ppm, how long would the whole procedure take?

I don't see why we can't just scale up. Can we get Zyklon-B in 55 gallon Economy Size drums? Or, perhaps it would be easier to generate HCN from chemicals, or generate CO industrially instead. Anyway, I didn't realize we were short of time, but if we are to hold to Survivor testimonies (and I don't see why we are) then we have to design for a ten to thirty-minute gassing and a rapid turnaround cycle. This considerably complicates the engineering.

Remember, a trainload with 6000 Hungarian Jews just arrived and they all have to be taken care of!

I don't see why. They aren't going anywhere and most will be dead if they don't get fresh air and water anyway. As far as unloading, well, corpses can be unloaded like sacks of potatoes. Or, we could design dumper cars with either belly hatches or tippers--or maybe scoops like on Soylent Green. Technologies of people-control are a growth industry these days.

The hard part is not killing them but corralling them. And of course, body-disposal that "doesn't leave a trace" would be a thorny problem too. It seems those clever Nazi bunglers managed that but failed in their Holy mission to kill all the Jews.
:shock:

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jun 03, 2003 2:23 am)

Sailor wrote:
Mattogno’s Calculation wrote:Conclusion: If the alleged gas chambers were really hermetically sealed, the gassing procedure according to the witness statements would have come to to standstill in the first case in less than one minute, and a little more than 4 minutes for the second chamber due to the stalled diesel engine, provided the building would have withstood the pressure and not collapsed.

A seal in the room somewhere would have simply blown. The engine would have a lot of mechanical advantage inflating a large room like a balloon, whereas a potato in the exhaust pipe might stall the engine.

This merely proves that the room could not have been sealed.

What it means is that if a hole was cut for a vent the size of the engine's exhaust pipe the pressure of the room would not rise substantially. Thus the CO or CO2 concentration would never rise above that of the incoming exhaust once all of the latent air is exchanged (less time if filled with victims) and since an unloaded engine has negligible CO and low CO2 but high oxygen content (about 17%) oxygen would be continually pumped in which would not come in if the engine were shut off (and the room were tight, of course).

This means (based on animal experimentation) that death comes in a few HOURS from pulmonary edema caused by acrid NOx emissions in the diesel exhaust.

The only way we can get a faster gassing is if we LOAD our diesel heavily so that little O2 is introduced and more CO2 from combustion displaces breathable air. A diesel engine of 500 horsepower is very hard to load.

It makes no sense to use a diesel engine at all. Either it was a gasoline engine or some other scenario unless somebody can demonstrate a need for that much power at those camps.
:)
Last edited by Scott on Tue Jun 03, 2003 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jun 03, 2003 2:25 am)

Hannover wrote:Wouldn't that time be much lower, since it's alleged that the 'gas chambers' were occupied?

IOW, wouldn't those allegedly being gassed reduce the amount of available space being pressurized?

Yes. But it's a wildcard because it is difficult to calculate exactly how many victims are stuffed inside. They don't claim to have done a headcount (assuming that the dimensions of the gaschambers can be trusted either).
:)

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jun 03, 2003 9:48 am)

Scott said:
This merely proves that the room could not have been sealed.


which ignores Sailor's statement:
2 The alleged gas chambers are completely sealed according to eyewitness reports and also the German courts (Rückerl: NS Vernichtungslager).

again...the lie shoots itself

and:
Hanover said:

Wouldn't that time be much lower, since it's alleged that the 'gas chambers' were occupied?

IOW, wouldn't those allegedly being gassed reduce the amount of available space being pressurized?

Scott replied:

Yes. But it's a wildcard because it is difficult to calculate exactly how many victims are stuffed inside. They don't claim to have done a headcount (assuming that the dimensions of the gaschambers can be trusted either).


On the contary, alleged Treblinka 'eyewitness' Wiernik stated:
"Between 450 and 500 persons were crowded into a chamber measuring 25 square meters."

But Scott is right here, "trust" is the key factor through the whole debate.

Scott said:
If the chambers double as showers then no problem. If they don't go in you shoot them.


This is simply another point against the absurdity of the alleged gassings. The whole affair could have been done much more cheaply, quickly, and efficiently by shooting everyone. Ofcourse, transporting them vast distances just to kill them made zero sense to begin with. Even if they were to be 'selected' for work, it could have been accomplished much easier at a point prior to transport.

Scott leaves us hanging with:
It makes no sense to use a diesel engine at all. Either it was a gasoline engine or some other scenario unless somebody can demonstrate a need for that much power at those camps.


Perhaps he could explain.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jun 03, 2003 10:44 am)

Scott wrote: A seal in the room somewhere would have simply blown. The engine would have a lot of mechanical advantage inflating a large room like a balloon, whereas a potato in the exhaust pipe might stall the engine.

This merely proves that the room could not have been sealed.

According to the eyewitnesses the doors of these “gas chambers” were air raid shelter doors of welded steel plate construction with U-channel groves around and rubber seals. These don’t blow at 0.5 atmosphere pressure. Trust me.

And if homicidal gassing with exhaust fumes from combustion engines, whether diesel, gasoline or wood-gas, requires venting holes in the gas chamber in order to work properly, what on earth did they need gas tight doors for, as everybody testified?

Something does not make sense here.

:D
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Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:09 pm)

Sailor wrote:
Scott wrote: A seal in the room somewhere would have simply blown. The engine would have a lot of mechanical advantage inflating a large room like a balloon, whereas a potato in the exhaust pipe might stall the engine.

This merely proves that the room could not have been sealed.

According to the eyewitnesses the doors of these “gas chambers” were air raid shelter doors of welded steel plate construction with U-channel groves around and rubber seals. These don’t blow at 0.5 atmosphere pressure. Trust me.

Do they open inward or outward? In any case, I don't necessarily mean the door seal but how ever they sealed the room. The Treblinka chambers are not a reinforced concrete box. Also, I never said the criteria was a half-atmosphere of pressure, which is about the backpressure that a turbocharger would make on the exhaust system.

And if homicidal gassing with exhaust fumes from combustion engines, whether diesel, gasoline or wood-gas, requires venting holes in the gas chamber in order to work properly, what on earth did they need gas tight doors for, as everybody testified?

Something does not make sense here.

This assumes that the eyewitness actually saw these details and experienced them directly instead of fleshed them in based on what a layman *thinks* a gaschamber would have. Diesel smoke, hermetical seals, etc. They could be liars or fantasizers or perhaps just relating erroneous information based on what they think they know. Cross-examination on such details would be helpful.
:)

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jun 04, 2003 7:55 am)

Hannover wrote:Scott leaves us hanging with:

It makes no sense to use a diesel engine at all. Either it was a gasoline engine or some other scenario unless somebody can demonstrate a need for that much power at those camps.

Perhaps he could explain.


Well, if you look at my simplified graph, which shows the gas-data as a function of engine LOAD from the famous Holtz and Elliott tests conducted for the U.S. Bureau of Mines in 1941, you will see what I mean:

Image

There is virtually no carbon monoxide in the exhaust unless the engine is overloaded. We can therefore rule it out.

Now, if the diesel engine were used to generate camp power, there is a lot of power available with a W-2 diesel engine from a Soviet tank. At 1500 rpm for 50 hertz alternating current it is 500 brake-horsepower, which is 373 kilowatts of mechanical energy. Using a conversion factor of about 67% we can use this to generate about 250 kilowatts maximum of electrical energy for peak periods of use.

Look at the graph again. Although this data is for a smaller engine the principle is the same. Unless the engine is heavily-loaded (right side of graph) the oxygen in the exhaust is too high and the carbon dioxide displacing it is too low.

Now, the typical loading for an electical generator in this application is from 30% of load to about 80%. (It is difficult to control the load exactly because it depends upon demand.)

Essentially, for this gassing scenario to work, the Nazis would have to switch on a dummy-load of perhaps 100 kilowatts to get a gas value that displaces the oxygen with carbon dioxide enough to achieve reliable gassings (by suffocation). That is a lot of power to dump somewhere!

Perhaps those clever SS used some Luftwaffe arclights to attract flying-saucers or something. Herr Göring would certainly make some available from the Flak batteries for such a noble cause as exterminating the Jews.
:roll:

Remember, the Reinhhardt camps were small. As I stated previously, what did they do with so much power?

If some witnesses thought that one could simply make a gaschamber with a barn and piping the exhaust from existing diesel generators for camp power they were mistaken.

However, this doesn't mean they lied--they just went beyond what they actually knew. We can't prove that there wasn't any homicidal gassings with a gasoline engine started up for the occasion and not needing to be loaded of course. However, Mr. Sailor has pointed out some obvious problems with the process-engineering of gassing so many according to the eyewitness statements.
:)

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jun 04, 2003 9:13 am)

What makes things even more complicated is the fact that the diesel exhaust fume gas chamber version for the Reinhard camps came up rather late.

According to eyewitness reports during the war the Jews in the camp Treblinka were actually steamed to death.

In Belzec the SS used an underground hydraulic driven machine were they could electrocute thousands of Jews at a time and then incinerate the dead bodies with electricity so that the remains completely disappeared. In the same camp a Mr. Karski sneaked in and observed how thousands of inmates were loaded into trains, covered with quicklime, and the train then took off. The people in there were never seen again either.

And in Sobibor it was alleged that the SS used chlorine gas to kill the prisoners.

fge


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