Occam's Razor / 'Code Words' when no evidence exists

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Occam's Razor / 'Code Words' when no evidence exists

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat Jun 07, 2003 3:02 am)

Talk about covenient, the 'holocau$t' Industry has developed the tactic of claiming that the Germans used code words for their extermination program....and only certain people have the magic decoder ring. This is merely a cover-up for the lack of evidence from real verifiable sources. Have a look here as John Weir gives us his views.
- H.

http://codoh.com/revisionist/tr12razor.html
The Razor and the Ring

By John Weir

“Plurality is not to be assumed without necessity.”
William of Ockham

The fourteenth century Franciscan theologian, William of Ockham is credited with using a method to trim logical absurdities out of arguments that came to be named for him. This method, today known as Occam’s Razor, or “Entities are not to be multiplied without necessity,” was developed to show that the realm of theology was separate from that of science; Scientific proof for the existence of God, he concluded, was not possible. Therefore science and theology, being different, required different methods for their advancement.

This division of science from theology allowed modernism to take hold in the West. Scientific investigation could now go forward unfettered by religious dogma which men relegated to the world of metaphysics. Scientific knowledge thereby became restricted to that which could be observed and tested. Theology, on the other hand, advanced through thoughtful speculation and faith.

The basis of the razor is simplicity. A model based on the simplest explanation of the data available is usually the best. Scientists and mathematicians, therefore, strive for simplicity and elegance in their theories describing the physical reality that surrounds them.
Consequently, a basic question that needs to be answered is whether history is to be described using scientific principles since the events of history occur in the physical world, or is it part of theology since historical events are used in the making of myths which support a particular world view and popular basic philosophical truths.

Recently, a few documents have been “discovered” in archives -- some of which have been only recently declassified -- which purportedly shed light on certain details of the Jewish Holocaust that were not known before. These recent revelations are an illustration of the taffy pull of history that is happening now between the scientific Occam’s Razor and theology’s Holocaust decoder ring.

The Holocaust is more than an historical event for Zionists. It is the embodiment of their view of the world. The Holocaust verifies that Jews can never trust Gentiles, but must control their own destiny. Otherwise, only death - at the hand of the Gentiles - await them. The Holocaust is proof of that and reinforces the need for a Jewish state to safeguard their survival. The theological dogma to this must only be supported--not undercut--by historical events. Therefore, events and documents dealing with the fate of the Jews at the hand of the Nazis must be interpreted only in a way that supports this Holocaust theology and Zionist view of reality.

The first of the documents I addressed in my Chilean Document essay: http://www.codoh.org/revisionist/comment/tr09chile.html

This document is dated 24 November 1941 and was in the hands of the American OSS by March 1942. It is quoted in the press to read in part “[I]t has been decided to eradicate all the Jews and send some to Poland and others to the town of Terezin, whilst looking for a more remote place.” The press articles concluded from this that the OSS and therefore the American government knew the Germans planned to kill all of the Jews by March of 1942 and the Germans had planned it by the previous November. Yet that is not what the document says. It says the Jews were to be sent to Poland until a more remote location became available.

Then, in January of 1942, the famous Wannsee Conference was held to finalize the details of "the extermination of the Jews" or so it has been said. Yet, this is not what the minutes of the meeting actually say. They read, in part, in translation to English as follows:

“Under proper direction the Jews should now in the course of the Final Solution be brought to the East in a suitable way for the use as labor... The evacuated Jews are to be bought first group by group into the so-called transit ghettos, in order to be transported from there farther to the East.” This is consistent with the Chilean Document: Jews were to be deported to the East.

The next document was very recently discovered and published. Its publication was treated by the Jewish Telegraph Agency (JTA) in an article posted on their Web site on Wednesday, January 16, 2002.
See:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Ko ... 50102.html

This document is the translation of an intercepted German encoded message that summarized the activity at the so-called transit ghettoes, described in the Wannsee Protocol, for the year 1942 and was dated 11 January 1943.

The JTA correspondent, Toby Axelrod states this intercept “indicates” the number of Jews killed at these “extermination camps” during 1942. Now the decoder ring is at work. The document doesn’t say the Jews were killed, it only indicates the number at each camp: 24,733 at Majdanek, 434,508 at Belzec, 101,370 at Sobibor and 713,555 at Treblinka. The document also provides a total of 24,733 for Lublin (Lemberg), but since Lublin is not considered by the keepers of the Holocaust to be an extermination camp, that is omitted from the article.
If this document doesn’t in fact describe mass exterminations, what does it reveal about the fate of the Jews at these camps? The encoded wireless telegraph message marked “State secret!” describes these numbers as “recorded arrivals.” The same terminology is used for Lublin in the document as is used for the imagined “extermination camps,” but the wielders of the decoder ring can tell the difference: When the Nazis used the term “arrival” for three of the four camps that “indicated” the Jews who arrived were killed, but -- for one out of the four - it did not.
The total recorded arrivals for the four camps for the year 1942 was 1,274,166. It was this number that stimulated the interest of researchers Stephan Tyas and Peter Witte, the discoverers of the intercept, because it matches a number which appears in an April 1943 secret statistical report by Nazi statistician, Richard Korherr on The Final Solution of the European Jewish Problem. See: http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Korherr/index.html

This report was assembled by Korherr on the order Reichsführer-SS, Heinrich Himmler. The report was to estimate the change in the number of Jews in Nazi-controlled territory from 1933 to the end of 1942. Korherr subdivided his statistics into several categories: Deaths over births, Emigration, Evacuation, and Other. There was no listing for “killed in death camps” or anything like that. The number that appeared in the intercept and also in Korherr’s report is listed under the heading “Transport of Jews from the Eastern Provinces to the Russian East: Processed through the camps in the Government-General” which falls under the “evacuation” category.

Though it is clear from the context of the report that Korherr didn’t consider these people to be dead, today’s guardians of “Truth and Memory” believe a euphemism is being used here for “killed.” Despite the fact that Korherr’s Report is a secret document created for Himmler who would certainly know what the report was about since he commissioned it, we are told that it contains code words to hide the fact the Jews were being murdered en mass though the report clearly states the evacuated Jews were to be considered a reduction in the population of Europe’s Jews for purposes of the report only.

Similarly, “arrival” is supposed to “indicate” that people were “killed.” Also “transported East,” “evacuated,” “resettled” and “send to Poland” are all phrases which mean “killed” according to the Holocaust cryptographers. Conveniently, when this principle is applied, just about anything can mean “murdered” and does when it comes to Nazi documents dealing with the Jews. All you need is the Holocaust document decoder ring. With it the wielder can find new meaning in already decrypted and translated documents and -even better-that can be any meaning desired. Neat.

The decoder ring is the theological opposite of the scientific razor. It allows one to add a layer of complexity so that evidence can be manipulated to fit the model. No longer does a document have to mean what it says. This makes the decoder ring much more useful than the razor for dogmatists because Occam’s Razor demands inflexible simplicity while the ring presents infinite possibilities and complexity.
The conclusion to this conundrum is rather simple. Since there are two choices of how to interpret Holocaust documents, what to pick depends on one’s philosophical outlook.

If the truth is known, then apply the ring and ‘arrival’ means murdered; ‘evacuated’ means murdered; ‘resettled’ means murdered; ‘transported’ means murdered. This is convenient when one knows truth apriori.

Conversely, if the truth is to be determined, apply the razor. The documents mean what they say: The Jews were assembled and transported East by the Nazis where the Jews were put into ghettoes deep inside occupied Soviet territory.

It is a matter of taste as to which to use. The Revisionist historians use the razor while the defenders of “Truth and Memory” use their Holocaust decoder rings which always “converge” the evidence anywhere their world view focuses it.

References:
The Good Old Days, by Klee, Dressen, Riess.
Richard Korherr and his Reports, by Stephen Challen.
The Auschwitz Myth, by Dr. Wilhelm Stäglich.
Eureka! What Archimedes Really Meant and 80 Other Key Ideas Explained, by Michael Macrone
Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory, by Deborah Lipstadt.
Last edited by Hannover on Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:35 pm)

Weir's article is quite pertinent to discussions of late concerning an alleged 'telegram' which is used as evidence for alleged exterminations in the so called Reinhard camps when it is in fact merely an arrivals list.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:43 pm)

Hannover wrote:Weir's article is quite pertinent to discussions of late concerning an alleged 'telegram' which is used as evidence for alleged exterminations in the so called Reinhard camps when it is in fact merely an arrivals list.

- H.


It's not merely an arrivals list though, is it? It's a forged arrivals list. Therein lies the difference.

Those cunning British!

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:05 am)

Hebden wrote: It's not merely an arrivals list though, is it? It's a forged arrivals list. Therein lies the difference.

Irving seems to be inclined to be suspicious about the authenticity of this telegram also.

While in Germany I met a fellow (he was a director of a machine shop and showed me his factory) who had a similar interest, the Jewish Holocaust story. Unfortunately we were on opposite sides of the subject.

There was absolutely no way to even discuss the subject with the man, he believed, he was taught in school about the Holocaust at a young age, he read Goldenhagen’s “Hitler’s willing Executioners” and saw the movie “Schindler’s List”, he was a convinced believer.

On my technical or scientific arguments he only laughed and I was told that I have the wrong approach.

At the base of the Jewish Holocaust is a belief, a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as being true without proof.

“It happened, therefore it was technical possible”.
or
“Jesus walked over the water. It happened. Therefore it was technical possible.”
or
“Jesus fed the multitude with one fish. It happened. Therefore it was technical possible.”

The believer of the Jewish Holocaust story is first and foremost a religionist who believes that there was a governmental organized plan to kill 6 million Jews, 4 million in gas chambers. To debate this with him is a waste of time, he disconnects.

These people who come up with this idea of “secrete” code words, words whose true meaning only the SS and they, the Holocaust believers, have a key to the true understanding. And they have absolutely no problem to interprete any word in a letter with an SS signature to proof their point.

It is almost hilarious if it would not be so pathetic.

:D
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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:01 pm)

Sailor wrote:
Hebden wrote: It's not merely an arrivals list though, is it? It's a forged arrivals list. Therein lies the difference.


Irving seems to be inclined to be suspicious about the authenticity of this telegram also.


He can be suspicious all he likes, but we suspect more grounds will be needed than simply the fact that the pages are tied up in the wrong order.

The ominous intercept referred to by Witte and Tyas (it is in Report 355a) is in the folder and appears to be genuine, though it has been tampered with at some time, which is a pity.

The signal was intercepted in three fragments, 83, 234 and 250, of which the crucial middle one was garbled. It appears to be answering a request for data by Heinrich Himmler, which is also in the file though seemingly intercepted three days later, in a version forwarded between third parties (Report 358b). In my view it was a general response to a request that Hitler made of all his ministries, to supply to him data to incorporate in his planned speech for January 30, the tenth anniversary of the seizure of power. (The Hitler request is documented in reich air ministry and Reich Chancellery files).

The original German text of the ominous signal does not carry the lethal overtones with which the recently published English translation is provided (which is not to say those overtones were not justified: just that they are not in the original text).


http://fpp.co.uk/docs/Irving/RadDi/RadDi220102.html

[Note by David Irving: these two signals, on page 2 of the report, appear to be the only ones of the estimated 5,000 in this folder which carry the Geheime Reichssache classification; they are certainly the only one addressed to Eichmann. The spelling Reinhart is thus in the document. Note particularly that unlike any of the other GPDD reports in this file, this report -- of five sheets, originally stapled together -- has been taken apart, and page 1 follows pages 2, 3, 4, and 5. The file is permanently bound with a faded red ribbon passed through punch holes, and sealed back and front. So this tampering may have occurred some years ago. Paper and typewriter appear to be the same on all five pages, and page 2 has pencil and ink handwritten annotations which are prima facie the same as on other pages].


http://fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/decodes150143.html


At the base of the Jewish Holocaust is a belief, a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as being true without proof.


At base of the Jewish Holocaust are the policies of Nazi Germany toward European Jewry. Leaving aside the question of the gas chambers, how many of these are you actually disputing?

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:12 pm)

The fact that only recently, they have 'FORGED' more documents relating to Iraq, is nothing to concern ourselves with ?

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:14 pm)

Turpitz wrote:The fact that only recently, they have 'FORGED' more documents relating to Iraq, is nothing to concern ourselves with ?


Who are they?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:17 pm)

Hebden said:

At base of the Jewish Holocaust are the policies of Nazi Germany toward European Jewry. Leaving aside the question of the gas chambers, how many of these are you actually disputing?


The so called 'holocaust' is the '6,000,000 Jews (an alleged grand total of 11-12 million including 'others') and gas chambers'. There is no evidence for either. That is the "base" for the event as alleged.

NS policies were varied and dealt with many subjects, but I assume the desire to deport Jews is Mr. Hebden's "base". Then I guess the US deportations of Japanese to concentration camps is another of his 'bases'. Or perhaps the massive deportations by the Communists. Given the times, deportations were the norm.

No 6,000,000 Jews, no gas chambers = no 'holocaust' as alleged

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:25 pm)

Who are they ?


You tell me, clever-clogs!

Make no mistake, it certainly wasn't the Huns.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:47 pm)

About Hebden’s post 266 above about the “intercepted” and “decoded” Höfle telegram:

I tell you my friend, these British decoded intercepts, including those about the shootings of Jews from Germany by the trainload in the Baltic states, including the Bruns tapes, are a bunch of horseshit and should be thrown into the toilet and flushed three times to make sure that they are gone and don’t come back up.

The Britts have absolutely no interest to find out the truth about the Holocaust and what really happened.

Listen to this:
In past wars, when the enemy surrendered, the atrocity propaganda ebbed off. But after World War II this propaganda intensified after Unconditional Surrender. We ask why. For whose benefit? A few days after Surrender, Prof. Friedrich Grimm was interviewed by (who unknown to him) was Sefton Delmer, the British War Propaganda Chief, who boasted, "I am of the Central Office you talked about: Atrocity propaganda -- and with it we won the total victory." When Dr. Grimm said, "I know, and now you must stop it!" Sefton Delmer retorted:

"No, now we shall start all the more! We shall continue this atrocity propaganda, we shall intensify it, until nobody shall accept a good word from Germans anymore, until all the sympathy you had in other countries shall be destroyed, and until the Germans themselves shall be so confused that they do not know anymore what they are doing!" (Quoted from Udo Walendy's The Methods of Reeducation


The show trial against the firm Degesch, Dr. Bruno Tesch and his Prokurist Karl Weinbacher in Hamburg in 1946 by the British are for me sufficient proof for their stance.

See:
Zyklon B, Auschwitz und der Prozeß gegen Dr. Bruno Tesch by William Lindsey, PhD
http://vho.org/VffG/2001/2/Lindsey169-188.html
It is in German. There may be an English translation floating around, I don’t know.

:D
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:08 pm)

Follow these threads and see examples of the phoney, alleged 'secretly recorded conversations' that Sailor refers to:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=15

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=366

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=345

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=228

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:01 pm)

Sailor wrote:About Hebden’s post 266 above about the “intercepted” and “decoded” Höfle telegram:

I tell you my friend, these British decoded intercepts, including those about the shootings of Jews from Germany by the trainload in the Baltic states, including the Bruns tapes, are a bunch of horseshit and should be thrown into the toilet and flushed three times to make sure that they are gone and don’t come back up.


For the sake of clarity, would Mr. Sailor say whether he thinks all British decodes and CSDIC recordings are fakes, or just the parts not to his liking?

Bearing in mind, according to Mr. Irving's book Nuremberg - The Last Battle:

Two classes of Intelligence were however not introduced in this trial - the private conversations of prisoners-of-war, monitored by ultra-sensitive hidden microphones (a violation of the Geneva Convention, these reports were kept TOP SECRET); and the ULTRA and MAGIC decrypts. On the former, the British Intelligence services had ruled that the top secret conversation-transcripts derived from the various C.S.D.I.C. interrogation camps were not under any circumstances to be openly used at the International Military Tribunal, however valuable they would have been; as a last resort the data might be used, provided that their origin remained permanently concealed.

[...]

The same restrictions were imposed on the use of the ULTRA data derived by Britain's codebreaking effort at Bletchley. For example for a year after the spring of 1942 codebreakers had read the the regular reports to Berlin by the commanders of the S.S. police units engaged in partisan warfare and rounding up the Jews behind the eastern front, and they had also broken the codes used by the commandants of the seven biggest concentration camps including Dachau, Buchenwald, and Auschwitz in transmitting their daily returns in top secret code to Oswald Pohl, their ultimate chief in Berlin, about the movements and mortality rates among their slave labourers and prisoners. Although there was perhaps suprisingly no reference in any of these messages to anybody being gassed or to mass exterminations in the camps, even at Auschwitz where it was clear that tens of thousands had died in the typhus epidemics since 1942, the ULTRA data would have been useful in prosecuting individuals like Pohl or S.S. General Kurt Daluege - the latter was heard specifically ordering his police force commanders not to make detailed or statistical reports on their murderous operations in the field, since their codes were suspected not to be secure from enemy eavesdropping.


would he, or anyone else, address the following two issues:

i) if the decodes and recordings were not used in war crimes trials, when and for what purpose were the forgeries created?

ii) why didn't the forgers come up with something more incriminating than the material there is; for example, references to gassings in Auschwitz?


The Britts have absolutely no interest to find out the truth about the Holocaust and what really happened.


We're British, aren't we?

Incidentally, have you heard back from Mr. Rudolf about the book The Final Accounting?

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:00 pm)

Hebden wrote: For the sake of clarity, would Mr. Sailor say whether he thinks all British decodes and CSDIC recordings are fakes, or just the parts not to his liking?


First please forgive my lousy English, it is after all a second language to me, and languages were never my forte.

British (or any other) decodes and CSDIC recordings which imply serious accusation against German (or any other nations) people and military personnel without any backing of hard evidence (massgraves), authentic documentary proof and proper legal proceedings (trial recordings for example of Bruns) are worthless. Sorry.

And this has nothing to do with what I like and what not. To spread unsupported stuff like that is in my opinion bs.

To me, without any backup and the obvious forgery of the Höfle telegram on top, all decodes as presented on Irving’s site are nothing but empty claims without proper back up. Not worth the paper they are written on or the space on his Web site.

Show us about the massgraves mentioned by Bruns and the train massacre graves, then I will believe it. Certainly I don’t like it but in that case I have to give in.

We talked about this before Mr. Hebden, I asked for a whole list of details which any two-bit criminal police officer would ask in such a criminal case, and that is what it is. You can read it again in one of the threads Hannover posted.

But you kept quiet.

If I would come up with a unsupported Bruns story here in the small town where I live they would probably put me in the nut house.

Irving is in my mind a primadonna who likes to see himself in the center of the stage, in the lime light. He was not prepared to handle his trial, as Faurisson predicted long before the bitter end. The opposition was prepared, they were good: van Pelt, Longerich, Browning, Evan. The best money could buy. Sure they were rough. So he lost. His home, his fortune.

As Rudolf says: Only a fool tries to be his own lawyer or something like that.

Now Irving tries apparently by publishing these idiotic Bruns tapes and unproven decodes that he is really a good Holocaust believer, probably in an attemnpt to get something back of what he lost. Or am I wrong here?

About the posted CSDIC recording:

I read the transcript on Irvings site. Irving adds that the tape sounds quite believable.
Now I tell you Mr. Hebden, when I switch on my TV, most of the programs are taped and staged, and everything sounds very believable. Believe you me. But what a bullshit they are presenting!

Was Bruns put before a trial as a major witness to a great crime? Not to my knowledge!

And that flimsy reasoning Irving is offering in his book, why the tapes could not be accepted in court! Please!
Anything was ok during those trials, believe you me. Just study a little what the Soviets submitted to the IMT, like 800,000 steamed to death in Treblinka. Or the little treatment Höß received with a horse whip. Or the British trials in Hamburg etc. etc.

i) if the decodes and recordings were not used in war crimes trials, when and for what purpose were the forgeries created?

See my above quote. So you don’t forget:
In past wars, when the enemy surrendered, the atrocity propaganda ebbed off. But after World War II this propaganda intensified after Unconditional Surrender. We ask why. For whose benefit? A few days after Surrender, Prof. Friedrich Grimm was interviewed by (who unknown to him) was Sefton Delmer, the British War Propaganda Chief, who boasted, "I am of the Central Office you talked about: Atrocity propaganda -- and with it we won the total victory." When Dr. Grimm said, "I know, and now you must stop it!" Sefton Delmer retorted:
"No, now we shall start all the more! We shall continue this atrocity propaganda, we shall intensify it, until nobody shall accept a good word from Germans anymore, until all the sympathy you had in other countries shall be destroyed, and until the Germans themselves shall be so confused that they do not know anymore what they are doing!" (Quoted from Udo Walendy's The Methods of Reeducation)


ii) why didn't the forgers come up with something more incriminating than the material there is; for example, references to gassings in Auschwitz?

The Jews already took care of that.

Incidentally, have you heard back from Mr. Rudolf about the book The Final Accounting?

I did not ask him about the book. I was talking about a major article by Mattogno about Auschwitz which is scheduled to be published in the next VffG magazine this year.

:D
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:08 pm)

I notice that Hebden is unwilling, or unable to respond to my critiques of these 'recorded conversations'.

Again, here are the threads, jump on in Hebden.

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=15

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=366

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=345

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=228

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:28 pm)

Here are an interesting exchange between a reader and Irving:

Irvings website wrote:The following conversation took place between: Generalleutnant Elfeldt (Comd. LXXXIV Korps) Captd near Trun 20 Aug 44 Generalleutnant Heim Information recorded secretly in British POW camp and received on 12-14 Nov 44

TRANSLATION Elfeldt: When we were in the Kiev district, my CO of signals (?) came back quite horrified ..... spoken ..... it was an engineer Bataillonskommandeur -- and this engineer Bataillon had the task of blowing up that ..... in which were those 32,000 Jews including women and children.

Heim: Even if the figures are not correct, I mean, those are things which can absolutely be characterised as criminal, or even as completely crazy and mad.

Elfeldt: In just the same way as I have obligations towards my family and my nation, so have we of curse a nation, certain rules which we must observe towards the rest of humanity, there's no doubt at all about that. I can't behave like wild beast.

William Amner wrote:Dear Mr Irving,
I regularly read the letters section of your website and they took me to the pages where the conversations of German Officers were supposedly secretly taped.
Reading these conversations I noticed that many of these Officers were repeating 'Hear-say' situations, for example Lieutenant-Generals Elfeldt & Heim discussing the bulldozing of the ravine at Babi Jar. Neither officer had been present.

You finish the page by saying, 'In Sept 1941 the Germans or their collaborators are said to have killed over 33,000 people etc etc.'
BUT I read on another revisionist website (VHO I believe) that no bodies have ever been found at Babi Jar Ravine. What is true here?

Secondly who is to say that IF bodies were found at Babi Jar, just as they were found at Katyn & murdered previously by the Bolsheviks, that the Wehrmacht Sappers were not called in just to bury them. After all British Troops bulldozed bodies into pits in Bergen-Belsen did they not? This act in itself is no proof that the bulldozer drivers were the perpetrators.

The story about driving 100s of Russian Prisoners into caves in Khala, gassing them and then blowing the caves up doesnt ring true either. The Russians because they 'noticed' something, 'broke away' and then returned, came back wringing their hands? If they had broken away, why not just disappear into the woodwork, after all liberation was only days away?

Lastly, I have been a professional Film cameramann for many years and one of the biggest challenges making movies is getting the sound right, thats why most sound is dubbed in afterwards. Hiding microphones in shrubs and trees sounds pretty neat but I dont buy it.....If it worked Filmmakers would use it, but we don't...If two or more People are walking / talking we have mikes following them all the time , even with modern professional mikes a turn of the head can lose the audio. Two men walking and having a private, half-whispered conversation needs a dedicated on-the-job-sound-man.

Special mikes that pick up sound over long distances are available BUT if the subjects are moving these mikes usually need to be hand aimed, AND you cannot have them just hanging in trees.
Where were the cables? And for every mike you'd need a tape-deck running constantly. Rain or Wind landing on a sound sensitive microphone and you can forget picking up conversations... Are you sure these conversations were not pre-recorded by Sefton Delmer because neither the 'mikes-in-the-trees' bit sounds real, nor do the conversations?

sincerely , William Amner

Irving wrote:The comnversations are genuine, no doubt whatever. Some words are
phonetically wrong, a very tiny number. Enormous pains were taken to get
the transcripts correct. I agree it is hearsay, and I make that plain.

David Irving (currently writing in Key West, Florida)
pp Focal Point Publications

London: 020 7499 9409; USA cellphone: 305 923 6259; or tollfree in USA:
1 877 447 5678 -- email: [email protected]

William Amner wrote:Dear Mr Irving,
Thank you for answering my email and sorry for taking up your time but :

a) You didnt answer my question as to whether bodies have subsequently been found in Babi Jar ? if Babi Jar turns out to be another Treblinka (where no bodies were ever found) then the whole conversation below is an obvious fake....AND puts other conversations at that facility in question.

TRANSLATION Elfeldt: When we were in the Kiev district, my CO of signals (?) came back quite horrified ..... spoken ..... it was an engineer Bataillonskommandeur -- and this engineer Bataillon had the task of blowing up that ..... in which were those 32,000 Jews including women and children.
Heim: Even if the figures are not correct, I mean, those are things which can absolutely be characterised as criminal, or even as completely crazy and mad.
Elfeldt: In just the same way as I have obligations towards my family and my nation, so have we of curse a nation, certain rules which we must observe towards the rest of humanity, there's no doubt at all about that. I can't behave like wild beast.

b) The whole conversation is that of a Sundayschool play trying to impress on us the difference between good & evil., but not of two German Generals in 1944 discussing an event from 1941, especially as Germany was getting the tripe bombed out of it in 1944 and the 'certain rules we must observe towards the rest of humanity' (Elfeldt) were certainly NOT being observed by the Allied Airforces over Germany. WHY would Heim say 'even if the figures are not correct' and not something like...Mein Gott , what in hell happened there?

In 1944 the Germans knew about the massacres in Katyn, Bromberg, Lemberg, etc etc their own major losses around Moscow, Leningrad etc, the Partisan problems in the Ukraine and Baltic states.
I have an older friend who was in the SS Div Handschar and he tells stories of how men from his unit, captured by Partisans had their hands tied behind their backs, butchers hooks put through their lower jaw and they were hung , alive & kicking in trees. How Russian / Jewish Partisans would grill live prisoners over fires like we grill pigs, who dug up the bodies of SS men killed in combat and cut the bodies to bits.... and here we have two Generals who MUST know these things also, getting sentimental about an event that supposedly happened years before.
I DONT BUY IT!

Those conversations do not sound 'echt'. I have since given the German scripts to two German friends to read and they just laughed and said....Unmöglich, Untypisch!! no need to translate that for you

Once again I must stress how primitive sound equipment was in 1944-45. The British first captured German AEG tapedecks towards the middle of the war, before that they had huge unwieldy metal decks etc as big as bathtubs...the sound quality was not good...getting multiple microphones plugged in was an act of God.
I think British intelligence is carrying on its long history of treating us like mushrooms (keeping us in the dark and feeding us manure)

sincerely W. Amner


Any comments?
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.


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