Hoaxes of the earlier centuries?

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Gorgias
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Hoaxes of the earlier centuries?

Postby Gorgias » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jun 07, 2003 9:21 am)

I would like to discuss about comparable hoaxes as this "Hoax of the 20th centrury" is or may be.

There are a lot of historical myths, mistakes and tall stories. But the majority of them are quite trivial. As an example: it does not matter very much if Martin Luther really nailed his theses on the door of Wittenberg church or not. He anyhow presented his theses wherever it then happened.

But are there (and how many) very big hoaxes that have been politically important? If there are, is it possible to discern some common psychological or sosiological features for them?

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Re: Hoaxes of the earlier centuries?

Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jun 07, 2003 10:32 am)

Gorgias wrote:But are there (and how many) very big hoaxes that have been politically important? If there are, is it possible to discern some common psychological or sosiological features for them?

You don't have to look back very far: Remember the WMD hoax?
:D
fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jun 07, 2003 12:39 pm)

and the 'babies thrown out of incubators' by Iraqis hoax

the non-existent satellite photos which were supposed to have shown the Iraqis poised to attack Saudi Arabia

the hoax that Israel thought the USS liberty was an enemy ship

the hoax that Israel doesn't spy on the US...they are overzealous 'rogue' agents

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jun 07, 2003 1:25 pm)

Here are others from another thread which have/had major political & social importance.

Witchcraft/sorcery:
- we had 'confessions'
- we had 'eyewitnesses'
- we had official acceptance by governments and laws to enforce that acceptance

UFO/alien abductions:
- we have an amazing 'convergence of evidence' which points to them as fact
- we have thousands upon thousands of 'survivors' & 'eyewitnesses'
- we have books
- we have nurturing focus groups of 'survivors' that meet & share their experiences

flat earth and earth centered planetary system:
- was 'scientific fact'
- was mandated by government bodies

the virgin birth:
- believed in, and a major religious force today

parting of the Red Sea:
- believed in, but obviously absurd

God appointing Jews as the 'Chosen Ones:
- believed in, but obviously absurd, these Chosenites have enough power to mandate belief in the greatest hoax of all time...the '6,000,000' & 'gas chambers'

the Israelites and the 'exodus':
- believed in, but pure mythology, see above

voodoo:
- believed in, practiced by many, a political force in the Caribbean and parts of South America, obviously absurd, no different than belief in the impossible '6,000,000' (12,000,000) alleged grand total) & 'gas chambers'

Christ's resurrection from the dead:
- believed in, but mere fantasy, see above

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Postby Braveheart » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jun 07, 2003 2:42 pm)

The propaganda of the First World War set the stage for the propaganda of the Second. During WWI, it was reported in the Allied countries that "the Huns" were tossing Belgian babies into the air and impaling them on bayonets. Another doozy is the myth that German soldiers were crucifying POW's to barn doors or something to that effect.

Have a look at this page. Each picture is a link you can click:

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/antip ... optoc.html

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Postby Gorgias » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 08, 2003 6:27 am)

Hannover wrote:Here are others from another thread which have/had major political & social importance.

Witchcraft/sorcery:
[..]
flat earth and earth centered planetary system:


I can accept these. These things were very widely believed. But the rest of your examples are not as satisfactory when they are confined to a bit smaller circles, anyhow.

All histories about the birth of a religion seem to be full of myths. Even Christianity, with all its "critical schools" of thinking. is not able to admit totally the all pervasive mythical elements in it's very early documents. The people who simply deny the very existence of historical Jesus may be comparable to the people that do the same with the holocaust. I am aware that this holocaust affair has it's religious dimensions, too.

Still, are there any strictly political examples? This proposal (see above) about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is a good example - but this story of the U.S. govermenment is not yet generally accepted as a truth, at least not here in Europe. :)

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 08, 2003 12:35 pm)

Since when are beliefs of Judaism & Christianity "confined to a bit smaller circles.."? Since when do they lack political importance? Since when aren't 'lobbies' effective in politics? Since when isn't cold cash effective in politics?

Perhaps the point you're trying to make is that of acceptance of superstition and fantasy as fact, in which case there are scores of them including all I mentioned. Is there a certain percentage of acceptance that you require?

More political? How about 'In god we trust' on US currency, try 'The Lords's Prayer' in schools.

Or, maybe what you are really looking for is propaganda made for convenience of government..yes? If so, the list is endless, I cited some before, here's more:

- the Vietnam Tonkin Gulf incident
- "sneak" attack at Pearl Harbor
- Germany trying to take over the world...while the sun never set on Britannia
- The Japs were trying to takeover Asia....while it was the French, British & Dutch that were in control of most of Asia
- Germany started WWII...while it was Britain & France who declared war on Germany, but not on the communist USSR for the same 'invasion' of Poland
- the cruel 'blitz' on England by German bombers...yet it was the Allies who deliberately initiated bombing attacks on civilian targets in Germany, 6 months before German retaliation which was measured in comparison to the Allied butchery...after appeals by Hitler to England to stop this deliberate bombing of civilians
- Japan's Emperor Hirohito was descended from divinity...the Japanese bought it

The point being that people are easily duped into believing lies. Considering the dominance of the media by Zionist interests, it is no wonder that people believe in the non-sensical, anti-science 'holocau$t'.

Anyway, what do you think? You haven't said much.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Gorgias » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:37 am)

Sorry, Hannover. All your examples are good and valid. Thank you for them.

What I think myself?

Well. This case still seems a bit mysterious for me. There are really examples of hoaxes in the earlier centuries, as well as more modern examples. But these very big hoaxes, when one thinks the importance and the duration, are from quite distant past, eg. believing in witches. Societies then were more ore less "totalitarian" and closed, comparable to the former Soviet Union. Our western societies are now open and democratic, mainly at least.

Yes, I think that I have not yet read a totally satisfactory explanation why this "holocaust hoax" could have succeeded, if there is "nothing" behind it, in our open societies.

Can you recommend me an article or book on this?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jun 19, 2003 9:40 am)

A book I would recommend would be a copy of TV Guide. The air waves and print media are dominated by judeo-supremacist interests. It's called 'manufacturing consent', opposing views are censored and lies are marketed for the financial, social, & political benefit of a chosen group. Venture from their mandated viewpoints and you suffer the consequences. This utter domination is totalitarianism, nothing open about it.

Ofcourse, laws which make this conversation illegal in Europe & Canada are a dead give away. It's not difficult to maintain 'acceptance' of fraud when it is illegal to question it.

"Open & democratic"? I think not.

Orwell is laughing in his grave to be sure.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Attila » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:37 am)

There is a very recent example of the massive use of false information in war: ex-Yugoslavia. The military and diplomatic attacks on the Serbs have systematically been justified with false claims. Three much-publicized bomb attacks on public squares in Sarajevo in 1993-95 have been used to formally justify NATO intervention and, in the last instance, to actually start the offensive of 1995. In each case, even NATO eyewitnesses confirmed that the explosions had been the doing of the Bosnian government, in league with two New York PR firms. The photograph of an emaciated Bosniak refugee behind barbed wire is still bandied about as illustrating Serb genocidal practices ("Belsen in Bosnia"), when we now know that he was standing outside the wire while the ITV camera crew had positioned itself on the inside (as was admitted by the judge in the court dispute about it, but he ruled the trick permissible as it had done justice to the over-all truth about the Bosnian civil war).

The death toll in the Srebrenica "genocide", used to weaken the Bosnian-Serb position in the Dayton negotiations, is still routinely given as 7500 or 8000, though it was known at the time already that 5000 of the Bosniak soldiers concerned had been moved out of Srebrenica on orders of their own government just before the Serb take-over, while many of the remaining ones later turned up alive in Serb captivity; the mass graves never yielded more than a few hundreds of corpses. Finally, claims of mass murder involving tens of thousands of Kosovo Albanians were used to justify the air attacks on Serbia in 1999; there was not a shred of truth in them, and the expected mass graves were never found (and not for want of trying).

The use of lies in war is not unusual. What is unusual here, especially given the massive improvement in modern communications, is that these false claims have entered the public consciousness and firmly taken root there, showing no signs of getting corrected now that the dust has settled. These lies about particular events should also be seen in conjunction with lies about the over-all situation, e.g. the regime of Milosevic (admittedly not my political friend) was systematically characterized as a "dictatorship" though he was repeatedly elected in multi-party elections.

Does that sound sufficiently reminiscent of similar instances around World War 2?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:41 am)

Good example.

In the case of the highly publicized "mass graves", a Finnish team of forensic experts only found a couple of graves which revealed very few bodies, and they determined the deaths were via combat, not execution. In other words, they were simply not what the media and US govt. said....it was a huge lie.
And yes, the staged 'behind barbed wire' photo that was/still is used.

The most obvious example that even couch potatoes are figuring out is the WMD hoax from the US & British governments used to justify the invasion and occupation of Iraq, where thousands have died...and are dying as we speak.
- nuclear weapons
- Iraq bought 'yellow cake' uranium from Niger
- WMDs could be made available in 45 minutes
- thousand upon thousands of tons of chemical weapons
- aerial drones which could deposit biological agents on European & US cities
- Iraq was directly associated with al-Quaeda
- SCUD missiles with WMDs
- the 'mass graves' where hundreds upon thousands are absurdly said to be buried, the media shows a few bodies and viola!.. another 'holocaust' is alleged and again, no confirmation or verifiable excavation to support the alleged numbers (ofcourse, the mother of all 'holocausts' is being deconstructed before our very eyes...see our other posts here & visit other Revisionist sites)

Governments lie folks, big time. The media lies, especially when the lies will benefit judeo-supremacism / Zionist - Israeli causes....that's a given.

A comparison to the lies of 'holocau$t' as alleged is clear & obvious.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 17, 2003 12:36 pm)

Another obvious example, although not in wartime is the World Trade Centre. The official truth concerning that episode is lies, lies and more lies. Only 'five' Jews died. And one of them was a Mossad agent....mmmmm!

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Postby Attila » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 18, 2003 8:57 am)

The Yugoslav situation offers another parallel in that it is crowned with a trial of the "war criminals" on the losing side, a trial explicitly modelled on Nuremberg. Serb calls to try Clinton and Madeleine Albright for their war of aggression are brushed aside: only the losers are on trial, and if in their pleas they try to implicate the victors, their microphone is switched off.

As the papers of yesterday July 17 report, public prosecutor Carla del Ponte is aware that there is no material evidence for such roaring allegations as that of "genocide". But no matter, for she has something more malleable: witness testimony! Particularly from the culprits themselves. And she knows how to get it: "if the politicians and officers in the dock are convinced to testify against Milosevic in exchange for shortened prison sentences". In her triumphalism, she can't even be bothered with keeping up appearances of a fair trial and due process. Which, it seems, is yet another parallel with Nuremberg.

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Postby Banshee » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:09 pm)

Attila wrote:The Yugoslav situation offers another parallel in that it is crowned with a trial of the "war criminals" on the losing side, a trial explicitly modelled on Nuremberg. Serb calls to try Clinton and Madeleine Albright for their war of aggression are brushed aside: only the losers are on trial, and if in their pleas they try to implicate the victors, their microphone is switched off.

As the papers of yesterday July 17 report, public prosecutor Carla del Ponte is aware that there is no material evidence for such roaring allegations as that of "genocide". But no matter, for she has something more malleable: witness testimony! Particularly from the culprits themselves. And she knows how to get it: "if the politicians and officers in the dock are convinced to testify against Milosevic in exchange for shortened prison sentences". In her triumphalism, she can't even be bothered with keeping up appearances of a fair trial and due process. Which, it seems, is yet another parallel with Nuremberg.

I agree entirely with You.
The most clear example of "dirty war" and "hoax" is the NATO/Serbia case.
The NATO - a defensive coalition only, i.e. can operate only if attacked - have deliberately and without justification broken every international rule and the articles of law created by himself.

Attila

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Postby Vilho » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:24 pm)

Soviet propaganda, believed at least by the Soviets;

- Finland provoked the USSR in Winter War by shooting the shots of Mainila.
- USSR didn't want to conquer all of Finland, many Russians still believe it. If not, then why did they set up the Otto-Wille Kuusinen's puppet government...
- The Katyn massacre was committed by the Germans.
- USSR liberated the Eastern Europe from much worse Nazis.


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