More evidence Treblinka is a sloppy hoax.

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Kiwichap
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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:28 am)

Johng says:
(I use the term loosly as he hasn't published after 6 years!)

Set me straight if I am wrong.

Is not this concerning the movie I have seen where the Australian folk checked out Treblinka with ground radar for alleged 'burial pits'?

If I remember right, the movie ended saying emphatically, "the evidence showed there were never any pits".

So : WHY
[hasn't he] published after 6 years!


Why indeed, it would'nt be intimidation, would it?

Do we know why?
There was no holocaust.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:19 pm)

Kiwichap wrote:Johng says:
(I use the term loosly as he hasn't published after 6 years!)

Set me straight if I am wrong.

Is not this concerning the movie I have seen where the Australian folk checked out Treblinka with ground radar for alleged 'burial pits'?

If I remember right, the movie ended saying emphatically, "the evidence showed there were never any pits".

So : WHY
[hasn't he] published after 6 years!


Why indeed, it would'nt be intimidation, would it?

Do we know why?


No, we don't know why.

I don't want to speculate about the reason for this. I do not doubt the honesty of Mr Krege, but I think the revisionist community deserves some kind of explanation from his side. If there was some methodological miss, or some later need for additional studies that could not be carried out due to economical/judicial problems... well, to err is human &c. But since Krege has not gone underground (as he appeared with Toben in Iran) I think he should let us know at least the outlines of the reasons to the Duke Nukem 4ever-like delay.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:02 pm)

Having talked to Germar Rudolf about this, it's my undertsanding that Krege and others were going to do additional and similar work at other camps and include them all together in a book. In fact the tentative title listed other sites*. From what I know, Revisionist access was denied as the site officials are in desperate fear of forensic research. Krege pulled off a fabulous coup at Treblinka, but additional attempts at bringing in equipment to the sites was banned. That says it all.

I stand by Krege, his results are in and as there is no answer from the True Believers. They cannot show their pathetic and impossible 'mass grave for 900,000 Jews'.

Oh yes, we shouldn't forget, the planned publisher was jailed.

Revisionism as we know it would end overnight if the alleged enormous mass grave could be shown. Revisionists are right though, the Zionist judeo-supremacists have lied ... as is their wont.

No mass graves as alleged, no holocaust. That simple.

- Hannover

* Planned:
Richard Krege, The Krege Report. Ground Penetrating Radar Research at the Operation Reinhardt Camps Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Pauvre France
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Postby Pauvre France » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:21 am)

On the other hand, there were certainly graves in Treblinka, that could be described of relatively important size for common people. The descriptions from the few eyewitnesses who really saw Treblinka II most probably contain a level of truth.

-Hundreds of thousands of Jews have transited through Treblinka. It is not difficult to imagine that among so many transports, each one had several people dead in it, mostly old people who could not sustain the discomfort of the journey. Not a lot, but certainly 1 to 10 for each convoy of 3.000 people. The Germans opened a pit that they kept reusing and that they did not covered properly since it had to be used again and again.
Hence the "stench that befouls the air" that appeared only once in a German report from nearby troops.

-What is probably true is the "Lazarett". Picture yourself the scene. The Germans saw batches of 3,000 people arriving unabatedly. Among them were the very aged, the very sick, and the very weak who were completely alone, without children or relatives to take care of them, people who would have not left their home otherwise. They could not carry on with the rest of the travel. The purpose of the few Germans who were members of former T4 teams for state euthanasia was to put an earlier end to their lives, as they could not let them die of sickness or of old age in the camp. They were used to do it in the past and that's why they were in Treblinka, because normal German soldiers could not stand killing elders or civilians outside a combat operation. Most reasonably, it happened by injection and not on a bench with Ukrainians and SS firing in their neck.

-Yankel Wiernik has reported that one transport arrived with 80% of people dead in cars. Although the proportion may be exaggerated, it is assumable that one transport had had a high death toll. The thirst detailed by eyewitnesses was certainly grounded in some level of reality. In one case, the situation degenerated into complete drama, maybe.

Eyewitnesses certainly had their share of sorry scenes. They probably had to handle corpses and to burn them. Thereby it was not difficult to extend the story and turn it into an extermination camp tale led by sadistic Germans after Poles and Russians decided that it would be done so.

At any rate, nobody said that Treblinka was a hub for vacationers and that Jews were not mistreated. It is just that there was no genocide. No holocaust. Treblinka claimed thousands, not 700,000 to 870,000.
«Vérité dans un temps, erreur dans un autre.»

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:27 am)

On the other hand, there were certainly graves in Treblinka, that could be described of relatively important size for common people. The descriptions from the few eyewitnesses who really saw Treblinka II most probably contain a level of truth.

I'm not sure what is meant by 'relatively important size for common people', but to believe alleged 'eyewitnesses' is folly. They have been proven over & over to be liars. It's 'eyewitnesses' who claim '900,000 Jews in a pit'. I accept no level of truth that is not verifiable and supported by hard evidence, as in real courts of law.

As in any place where people congregate, naturally there will be some deaths. To assume high numbers is not supported by evidence. Any graves would be scattered about and peripheral to the claim of '900,000 Jews'. Revisionists to date have only focused on the 'holocaust' claim of the enormous pit of these '900,000 Jews'. These bogus 'eyewitnesses' have stated where it supposedly is, and nothing is there. Very simple.

I see no evidence for T4 teams at Treblinka.

Yankel Wiernik? Surely this a joke. Search him here and learn.

I refuse to play 'holocaust lite' as the evidence does not support it.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Pauvre France » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:38 pm)

I'm not sure what is meant by 'relatively important size for common people',

In time of peace, I think the sight of 10 ten dead people is already unbearable. In time of war, more.

but to believe alleged 'eyewitnesses' is folly. They have been proven over & over to be liars. It's 'eyewitnesses' who claim '900,000 Jews in a pit'.

I perfectly know that. My contention is that some of the fairy tales could have been extrapolated from a few real things, after a gross exaggeration.

In the book Carlo Mattogno & Jürgen Graf - Treblinka - Extermination Camp or Transit Camp?, Jurgen Graf wrote:

As do so many legends, that of "Ivan the Terrible"; may contain a kernel of
truth: presumably there was in Treblinka a brutal Ukrainian guard feared by
the prisoners, who was called Ivan or the like. All else is pure fantasy.

(p. 175)

I accept no level of truth that is not verifiable and supported by hard evidence, as in real courts of law.

But you still accept conjectures?

I see no evidence for T4 teams at Treblinka.

The problem is that there is some.

In the Epilogue By Germar Rudolf in the same book, you can read:

1. Use of Euthanasia Staff during Operation Reinhardt

Reinhardt camps, of which Treblinka was the largest, historians of the status
quo identify the technical and organizational origins of this mass murder as to
be found in the program of euthanasia, which was enforced as of the beginning
of World War Two; the killing of so-called "life not worthy of life," in
other words, mentally and/or severely physically disabled people. The reason
for this assumption is the considerable overlap, i.e., continuity of staff in both
areas. However, it seems to me a very dubious practice to attempt to construe
this continuity as evidence for the mass murder, since it may very well
mean only that the leadership had wished to retain staff, which had previously
proven loyal in one socially extremely controversial operation, for a subsequent,
no less controversial purpose. But whether this controversial purpose
was the resettlement, ghettoization, or mass murder of the Jews, is still an
open question.

[...]

Considering that some of the staff of Operation Reinhardt had knowledge
about homicidal techniques from the euthanasia program, this lack of transfer
of method is strong circumstantial evidence that the Operation Reinhardt did
not mean the killing of people.

(pp. 306-307)

Yankel Wiernik? Surely this a joke. Search him here and learn.


I'm currently translating "A year in Treblinka" in French, so I know. I've done the 9 first chapters so far. The novel is grotesque an that's why I'm doing it.

I refuse to play 'holocaust lite' as the evidence does not support it.


I don't say that there's such a thing as a "minicaust". I say that there was a suspicion on likely human casualties in Treblinka, explainable by logistical constraints in a controversial operation, ie the resettlement of European Jews. I did not say that it happened, I say that is probable. In that context, the Lazarett would have been the only place where people could have died from euthanasia, accounting for the impossibility of transporting people who were already at the point of death. And of course, I agree with you that it requires a proof.
«Vérité dans un temps, erreur dans un autre.»



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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:08 pm)

Pauvre France wrote:I don't say that there's such a thing as a "minicaust". I say that there was a suspicion on likely human casualties in Treblinka, explainable by logistical constraints in a controversial operation, ie the resettlement of European Jews. I did not say that it happened, I say that is probable. In that context, the Lazarett would have been the only place where people could have died from euthanasia, accounting for the impossibility of transporting people who were already at the point of death. And of course, I agree with you that it requires a proof.


Yes, at this point, one can only speculate. A hint that the Lazarett story may have some kind of basis in reality is that it does not jam very well with the Treblinka extermination story. Surely, most or all of the deadly ill or aged that were taken to the Lazarett and shot could have been taken to the gas chambers, if there were gas chambers. Those unable to walk by themselves could have been carried/supported by other victims or by Arbeitsjuden. The Lazarett story negates rather than conform with the gas chamber story.

It seems like many of the details of the Treblinka Holocaust yarn arose from the realities of a transit camp. The "eye witnesses" and propagandists - not being gifted with much fantasy - either undeliberately misconstrued the real going-ons at the camp (some of them perhaps convincing themselves after the war that they had seen gas chambers etc) or plainly lied about them.

Pressac pointed out that the part of the (Treblinka phase I) story about the victims taking a bath before they went to the gas chambers is completely illogical in the context of gassings - why have the victims take a shower . Pressac showed how the arrangement of the baracks and the equipment therein corresponded to a delousing and desinfection installation, and, to appease the exterminationists, claimed that one of the baracks was later modified into a gas chamber. Graf & Mattogno discusses the Pressac hypothesis and finds it, sans modification-into-gas-chambers, to be reasonable.

The presence of a delousing chamber utilizing steam could of course be the root of the later discarded "steam chamber" yarn. Mattogno & Graf also speculates that there could have existed a desinfection installation were Zyklon B was used. Such a building would have had to be made by brick or concrete and could thus have served as a model/inspiration for the phase II gas chamber building ("Zyklon B" was at least once mentioned as killing agent at Treblinka but early on discarded along with the steam and vacuum chambers). I find this bit to be interesting but more speculative, since there are no records of Zyklon being shipped to Treblinka II.

This kind of mythomaniac transformation of life-saving facilities into murder machines could also account for other details in the "eye witness" testmonies. If the deportees also had their hair shaved off for sanitary purposes, this could, as "One Third of the Holocaust" points out, be the truth hiding behind the ridiculous claims of "gas chamber eye witness" Abraham Bomba. If one is allowed to speculate: Bomba actually cut/shaves off the hair of about 70 women inside some delousing barack, steps out of the chamber while the deportees are deloused and then let out through the door to the "clean side", the doors on the unclean side, where Bomba and his colleagues are waiting, opens up and, as Bomba tells, "the gas chamber is cleaned out" "only fives minutes" after he and the other "barbers" stepped out of it - nonsens in a homicidal gassing context, perfectly explainable in a delousing context. After all, why would the cutting/shaving of hair take place inside a homicidal gas chamber? And why shave the people that were going to be killed anyway? As to the absurdity of 90 people crammed into a bed room sized (4x4 m) room, Bomba probably skimmed through the Holocaust and then retrofitted his distorted real life experience to the dimensions of the alleged phase II gas chambers, without realizing - or perhaps surpressing to himself - the fact that the story did not make any sense.

Corpses from deportees who had died on the train and therefore had to be disposed at Treblinka were most likely burned within short notice (although some were probably also buried), possibly using "grills" similar to those alleged to have been used in mass incinerations by "eye witnesses". Such installations would be reasonable for burning a few dozens or perhaps hundreds of corpses now and then, but of course not very effective at all when cremating more than 700 000 half-rotten corpses.

Fuel for such small scale incinerations could probably be easily obtained from nearby communities, which may be the reason for the witnesses not explaining how the enormous amounts of seasoned wood that would have been necessary fore the alleged cremations were acquired, or discarding with the fuel altogether in their badly constructed yarns.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:35 pm)

Hannover wrote:Having talked to Germar Rudolf about this, it's my undertsanding that Krege and others were going to do additional and similar work at other camps and include them all together in a book. In fact the tentative title listed other sites*. From what I know, Revisionist access was denied as the site officials are in desperate fear of forensic research. Krege pulled off a fabulous coup at Treblinka, but additional attempts at bringing in equipment to the sites was banned. That says it all.


Jurgen Graf writes:

Conditions were different in Sobibor: First, there is a museum at the entrance to the camp, the employees of which are quick to notice any unauthorized activity in the camp area, and second, as a young Polish historian who worked in the museum informed us, the exact (or supposed) location of the mass graves is unknown. Since the historian knew Mattogno and myself to be revisionists from our previous visit in 1997, we renounced any secrecy and asked for permission to employ the radar equipment. The man referred us to an office in Warsaw to obtain the necessary approval; we declined so futile an effort and continued on to Treblinka.

http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/1/Graf97-101.html

If one looks at the maps presented over at deathcamps.org (for example http://www.deathcamps.org/sobibor/pic/sobibor.jpg ) one sees that the alleged mass graves are supposed to be located around the large round monument in the "extermination area", so I guess that the "young Polish historian" either didn't know or flat-out lied about this. Of course, the maps placing the mass graves there are from 2002 so perhaps they consulted some psychic and suddenly found out the location of the graves
some time after the heretics left the holy ground.
Revisionism as we know it would end overnight if the alleged enormous mass grave could be shown. Revisionists are right though, the Zionist judeo-supremacists have lied ... as is their wont.


One may indeed ask why the exterminationists haven't done their own ground-penetrating radar analysis at the "Death Camps" and released their results for the world to see. Surely they've got the money, unlike Krege &co who had to rely on donations in order to be able to rent the radar equipment (this economical factor may be another reason for the delay if additional studies were required). But of course these kind of shysters are satisfied with the bizarre, profoundly unscientific reports of the "commissions for investigation of Hitlerite crimes"...

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Postby Pauvre France » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:29 pm)

Laurentz Dahl wrote:Yes, at this point, one can only speculate. A hint that the Lazarett story may have some kind of basis in reality is that it does not jam very well with the Treblinka extermination story. Surely, most or all of the deadly ill or aged that were taken to the Lazarett and shot could have been taken to the gas chambers, if there were gas chambers. Those unable to walk by themselves could have been carried/supported by other victims or by Arbeitsjuden. The Lazarett story negates rather than conform with the gas chamber story.


My assumption was pointless anyway. Even the judge Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz found nothing nearby the alleged Lazaret.

November 9, 1945
Excavations were begun on the grounds using the services of 20 workers
who had been mustered by the village administration for carrying out
roadwork. The excavations began at the location described by the witness
Rajzman on November 6, where the so-called "camp hospital" had stood
and where, according to the witness, a mass grave is supposed to exist.
Since a bomb crater 4 to 5-meter deep is present at the said location - two
bombs still lie at a slight distance from this crater - the digging was begun
in this crater. In the course of this work numerous Polish, as well as Russian,
German, Austrian, and Czech coins as well as broken pieces of various
kinds of containers were discovered. At the end of the work, at approximately
3 pm, at a depth of 6 meters, we encountered a layer which
had not been reached previously. There were no human remains found.

(p.85)
«Vérité dans un temps, erreur dans un autre.»



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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:45 pm)

Pauvre France wrote:My assumption was pointless anyway. Even the judge Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz found nothing nearby the alleged Lazaret.


As with many details of the Treblinka narrative (such as Barry the dog, "the tube", the bizarre tree branch fences &c) the "Lazaret" appears also in both the Belzec and Sobibor narratives, which, since the alleged Lazaret grave pits has not been found at any of the three camps, seems to indicate "eye witnesses" plagiarizing each other.

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:24 pm)

The use of G.P.R. in locating mass graves is not really absurd and has been used before in other applications.

In fact the hoaxster should have done this themselves long ago.

The following is from a site:
http://www.du.edu/~lconyer/
Ground Penetrating Radar in Archeology

Cemeteries:
One of the most common types of surveys geophysical archaeologists are asked to do is to locate graves and burials. GPR can be quite successful at locating them:
Reflection profile from a survey done in a military cemetery. Each hyperbola is a burial.
Image

And what would be the purpose of digging up the partially decomposed 900,000 bodies, cremate them on open air pyres and shovel the remaining parts, the ashes, wood ashes and earth back into the pit?
This does not make the human remains disappear! That is ridiculous!


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