Totenlager as "clean side" of delousing operation

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Laurentz Dahl
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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon May 21, 2007 11:39 pm)

IlluSionS667 wrote:It seems obvious to me that the Crowell's hypothesis is true for most anonymous of lesser known "survivors" of the "holocaust". They heard the wildest story and allowed these to interfere with their own memory, hence creating an elaborate hoax with just "too many witnesses" to deny the truthfulness of the hoax.

Obvious lies by the most oportunistic inmates increades the reliability of the hoax, combined with the show trials by the allied occupation governments since 1945 and the endeavors of the holocaust industry that would start in the '60s.

I must say that I'm insufficiently familiar with the Sobibor-issue to know which of the Sobibor-witnesses fall in which category.


I think most of the Reinhardt witnesses fall into the Crowell cathegory. Exceptions would be the inmates who claims to have seen or worked in the gas chambers. Of the Sobibor Jews, only Biskubicz claims to have seen the gas chambers with his own eyes. Bahir has Bauer standing on the roof looking into an observation window. At Belzec, we have Reder and Hirszmann claiming to have seen and worked in the gas chambers. For Treblinka, there are a few more people, starting with Wiernik.

I suppose it is possible that - if we postulate that Sobibor (as well as Belzec and Treblinka) were actually transit camps - the workers (or some of them, those who worked at receiving and cleaning the trains) in Lager 1 and 2 only saw the deportees arriving, and that the deportees were later led back through the trains when the workers in Lager 1 and 2 were back in their barracks and workshops. My guess is that the showered and deloused Jews were separated from contact with possibly infected people all the way from the bathhouse to the trains. It probably did not require much of a work force to get the people on the trains, once they had taken the shower and their fear of being killed had subsided. Maybe there was a small Jewish workforce in the delousing part of the camp ("the death camp"), maybe not.

If that is the case, the delusion among some of the workers may have been caused by rumors spread by leaders of the camp resistance, or rumors that were going around in the ghettos, or both. There probably occured several burnings of actual corpses (probably in the low tens of thousands) from people who died enroute, as well as of belongings and old lousy clothes. This was probably integrated into the rumors.

I say some of the workers believed, because I suspect that many of the inmates did not believe in the gas chambers. There are many passages in for example Blatt that tells of inmates "who acted as if they were not in a death camp". One may also recall the difficulty Donat had in obtaining witness accounts from the hundred or so Treblinka survivors he had in his list. This may have been because those people who refused to reply did not believe the death camp story and did not want to sanction it, while not questioning it openly (thus being "illoyal" to their fellow Jews).

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue May 22, 2007 12:14 am)

I think it may me on topic to take a look at the Kurt Franz map here. It was drawn by Franz while in custody.

Image

Some commentary on this map:

- The "lazarett" seems to have been crossed out then seemingly moved to the left

- It seems at least to me as if the scraggly line denoting the wall between what is usually referred to as the "death camp" and "the sorting camp" was drawn in after the other details, thus the line crosses and blurs the "o" in POSTEN and the "L" in OBERES-LAGER (Upper Camp). No other legends on the map are obscured like this, so Franz clearly drew in the buildings/structures first and then the legends, except in this case.

- The "sorting camp" and the "death camp" are designated together as the "Upper Camp" (Oberes-Lager)

- There is a question mark following the work "OBERES-LAGER". Why? Was this term not familiar to Franz but suggested by his interrogators? Maybe it was in fact called something like "the delousing camp"?

- Note that where the gas chamber building should be, there is a square figure bearing the legend V Anlage (V Facility/Installation). What does the V stand for?

- The map does not feature any mass graves or "roasts"

- To the left of "V Anlage", there is some other kind of feature that has been crossed out.

- What are the words on the top of the map (the two ones "translated" with question marks by deathcamps.org). The left one clearly starts with "Lager".

- The line denoting the "uppermost" camp perimeter looks different from the other lines making up the camp fence. It seems to have been drawn more than once. Why?

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue May 22, 2007 12:43 am)

In Novitch book we find a witness account signed Hershel Zukerman (yet another spelling of the name of the Sobibor chef) which contains the same episode as recounted in the quote made by Arad, but with some interesting differences:

The gas chambers were so well camouflaged that for ten weeks I believed that my fellow prisoners who came with me were in a labor camp. In our kitchen we cooked the soup for camp No.3 and Ukrainian guards used to f e t c h the vessels. Once I put a note in Yiddish into a dumpling, "Brother, let me know what you are doing." The answer arrived, stuck to the bottom of the pot, "You shouldnt have asked. People are being gassed, and we must bury them." I informed my two firends, Leon Feldhendler and Schlomo Goldstein. However, we decided to stay quiet, as we didn't want the others to know.
(p.107)

[Note: for some reason the word "f*tch" is being blocked so the original of course has no space between the letters of that word. I am not a native English speaker. Is this a cuss word and as thus being blocked?]

Comments:

- According to Arad and others at least 57,000 Polish Jews were sent to Sobibor during

May-June 1942. Cukierman arrived in May. The "gas chambers" were surely "well camouflaged".

- As has been noted above, Cukierman claims that the vessels with food for lager 3

prisoners were brought to that camp, and returned ampty, by Ukrainian guards, while Moshe

Bahir has it that Jewish inmates from Lager I did that work.

- In the account quoted by Arad, Cukierman puts the message into a thick crumb pie. In

this account, he manage to stick it in a dumpling (kreplach?)

- Differences between letters more than superficial differences in wording: The letter as

per the account quoted by Arad has no sentence eqvivalent to "You shouldn't have asked."

Also, that letter did not talk about gassings or burial, while the letter in the Novitch

account explicitly mention both things.

- The name of the friends are mentioned in the account presented by Novitch, but not in

the one quoted by Arad.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue May 22, 2007 2:26 pm)

That question mark by "oberes lager" whatever "oberes" means, is really strange.

And it shows that the "clean side" of a delousing operation doesn't have to be that big. Because there's nothing going on there except a shower, and some disinfectant spray maybe and the receiving of your steamed clothing. Thus it's never the size needed to bury the equivalent of a midsize-large city. Is that area in Franz's map the size needed to bury the population of Toulouse, France? How about the population of Copenhagen, Denmark? How about for burying all those people and then digging them up and burning them in that area?

Answer: No. Maps, models, photos all betray this problem. Faurisson visited the camp, took measurements, saw that the museum people had tried to increase the size of the camp, and it all points to the same problem. Trautsolt survey shows that. Everything shows that.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue May 22, 2007 10:35 pm)

"V Anlage" could be short for Vergasungsanlage (gassing facility) I guess. A bit strange not to write the full word though, or simply call it Gaskammern. One may note that when Franz makes the abbreviation "T. Stelle" (in the upper right part of the "Unteres Lager") he has the initial "T" the same size as the "S" in "Stelle". However, the "V" in "V ANLAGE" is at least twice the size of the other letters - maybe because it was put in after the following letters?

One may also note that Franz has drawn the gates or openings between different parts of the camp. However, there should be a gate leading to the "death camp" part (used by the SS and guards, cf this map http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap9.jpg ) which is not drawn on the map.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:26 pm)

Recently discovered that there exists a sketch of Belzec drawn up by SS man Karl Alfred Schluch. This is the bio given for him:

Schluch, Karl Alfred
SS – Unterscharfuhrer
SS Number – unknown

Born in Lauenburg – Pommerm ( now Lebork Poland). Spent his childhood with his grandparents. Eight years elementary school, then agricultural worker.

From April 1930 attendant at a sanatorium for Dr Wiener in Bernau near Berlin, passed public nursing examination in 1932. Joined the NSDAP in 1936, and posted to T4 on the 13th June 1940.

Served at Grafeneck and Hadamar euthanasia centres, and from late winter 1941 served in an Organisation Todt transportation unit for wounded soldiers on the eastern front.

Schluch was posted to the Belzec death camp in June 1942 until the early summer of 1943. He served as a guard at the ramp, and accompanied naked Jews through the Schleuse, to the gas chambers.

After Belzec he was posted to the labour camp at Poniatowa, and in the autumn of 1943 to Italy, where he fought against partisans. At the end of the war he was arrested by US Forces, but released on the 6th July 1945.

After that he became an agricultural worker, until 1948, and then a construction worker till 1952, and after that he took up nursing again, at the hospital in Bedburg – Hau.

Schluch was tried with eight other members of the Belzec –SS, at Munich in 1963. At the trial Schluch was acquitted for his part in the mass murder of Jews.


And here is the significant portion of the sketch, showing the camp:

Image

It seems to have been drawn with pencil. Note that there are some larger visible erasings.

The camp fence goes on to the top of the sketch, but the top area is left empty except for the three underlined words

WATCHTOWER
GRAVES
INCINERATION

Now lets take a look at at the buildings marked on the sketch below this blank area. I have rotated to enable viewers to read the words explaining the functions of the buildings.

Image

To the right we have the word graves (grabestätte with the midmost letters erased) but no drawn graves.

Just below the word grabestätte we have a building marked baderaum (with bade and raum connected by a hyphen). That is a shower/bathing room.

To the left of the washing room we have two undressing barracks, the upper for men, the lower for women.

Also note the large squiggly doodling to the lower left, close to the railway sidetrack. A mistake or something that was partly erased? The right part of the doodle has two lines running parallell, a street, funnel or something similar?

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:53 pm)

Btw if I recall correctly there is some document in one form or another which calls Sobibor(?) a Sonderlager, that is special camp (as we know, Himmler referred to it once in a letter as a Durchgangslager, transit camp), and the exterminationists have utilized this word in the usual conspiracy theory style exegesis fashion to support the belief that Sobibor was an extermination camp - since we all know that Sonder means "murder" in Naziese :roll:

Now if Sonderlager = death camp how come there was a camp called SS Sonderlager Hinzert?

http://www.keom.de/denkmal/auswert.php? ... er_hinzert

I don't know much about this camp, but I know that no one claims it was an extermination camp or had any gas chambers.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:56 am)

The document calling Sobibor a "Sonderlager" was issued in connection to the prisoner revolt in late 1943. It can be found in translation in the back of Novitch' book.

Regarding SS Sonderlager Hinzert the German Wikipedia has the following to say:

Am 1. Juli 1941 wurde das Lager durch die Inspektion der Konzentrationslager übernommen und erfüllte seither vielfältige Aufgaben als „Wiedereindeutschungs-“, „Schutzhaft-“ und „Arbeitserziehungslager“. Ca. 14.000 ausschließlich männliche Häftlinge im Alter zwischen 13 und 80 Jahren durchliefen das Lager bis zu seiner Räumung 1945. Teilweise betrug die Sterblichkeit in dem theoretisch für 560 Häftlinge ausgelegten, aber mit jeweils 1.200 bis 1.500 Menschen völlig überbelegten Lager bis zu 2 % der Belegschaft pro Tag. Daher muss von einer weit höheren Opferzahl als den 321 gesicherten Toten ausgegangen werden.


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-Sonderlager_Hinzert

It is not told why it was called a Sonderlager but presumably it had to do with the camp serving several different purposes.

One may recall that Sobibor from late summer 1943 onward was equipped with subterranean bunkerlike work rooms for the sorting of captured Soviet ammunition. Himmler expressedly wanted the transit camp (Durchgangslager) Sobibor to be converted to a concentration/work camp focusing on ammunition works. However, it was decided that Sobibor could retain its old function while the ammuntion works facilities were implemented. My guess would be that it was this dual function from summer 1943 onward which led to Sobibor being called Sonderlager at the time of the uprising.

Sonderlager could also mean any camp with a special purpose, such as the Sonderlager Fichtenhain close to Buchenwald where some VIP prisoners were held.

It seems also that the term Sonderlager was used for certain areas of concentration camp where some special kind of prisoners were held. For example there was a Sonderlager in Bergen-Belsen and Sachsenhausen.

Stutthof was referred to as a Sonderlager before it was changed into a Konzentrationslager:

Dieser Beschluß fand in einem vom 20. Februar 1942 stammenden Rundschreiben des Chefs der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD seinen Widerhall:[26]

»Das bisherige SS-Sonderlager Stutthof ist auf Anordnung des Reichsführers-SS und Chefs der Deutschen Polizei mit sofortiger Wirkung als staatliches Konzentrationslager mit der Bezeichnung „Konzentrationslager Stutthof" übernommen worden. Als Lagerkommandant ist der bisherige Kommandant des Sonderlagers Stutthof, SS-Hauptsturmführer der Waffen-SS Pauly, vom Inspekteur der Konzentrationslager eingesetzt worden.«

Mit seiner Erhebung in den Rang eines »staatlichen Konzentrationslagers« wurde Stutthof dem in Oranienburg stationierten Inspektorat der Konzentrationslager unterstellt[27].

http://www.vho.org/D/Stutthof/I.html

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:19 pm)

Schluch was acquitted and Yitzhak Arad uses his testimony in his book.

The people acquitted in these trials or given small sentences always seem to be the people who are sources for the holocaust.

Funny how one never looks at the source to find a Kurt Franz statement, who was given a life sentence.


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