Alleged Photos from the Reinhardt Camps and Chelmno

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:03 pm)

Jerzy Ulicki-Rek,
This thread is is titled:
'Alleged Photos from the Reinhardt Camps and Chelmno'.
Please stay on topic.

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Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:51 am)

As can be seen in the caption to the three Belzec photos in Kola's book (guards in front of guardhouse at entrance, SS before sorting barracks, Jewish kapos in front of sorting barracks) they are all credited to the Photo Archive of the local historical museum of Tomaszow-Lubelski.

I would love to go through that archive. Perhaps there are some more Belzec photos lying around there forgotten by everyone - stuff even more embarassing to the official story than the photo showing a primitive fence with a dense forest on the other side of it.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:41 am)

Laurentz Dahl wrote:This photograph from the Bildarchiv Preussischer Kulturbesitz was allegedly taken in the vincinity of Treblinka II by a Polish railway worker at August 2 1943. It allegedly shows the smoke from burning buildings at the camp, put on fire by revolting prisoners.

Image


Here's the testimony from the guy who allegedly took this picture:

Observing from the railway station in Treblinka on a hot Monday, 2 August 1943, at 15.45 we saw huge wreaths of smoke mixed with tongues of fire in the skies over the death camp. It was different smoke from that which we saw every day, that smoke of martyrdom. At the same time the sound of shots and detonations grew nearer. We began to realize that a revolt had broken out in the camp, that the camp had been set on fire by the Jews and that fighting was going on there.
Several hundred Jewish workers from the camp staff had organized the uprising. At the same time as SS men and Ukrainians (two changes of guards) had gone by cars and bicycles to swim in the River Bug, the Jews, who had previously captured a small quantity of weaponry from the armoury, set fire to the barracks and threw grenades. They shot at the guards, destroyed the gate, and broke out from the camp, escaping wherever they could. A large group of Jews probably used directions given by me and made for the forests over the River Bug, near the village of Glina. It later appeared that in the crossing of the River Bug, a unit of the Home Army under Stanislaw Siwek helped and protected the Jews.

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html

Now if the witness and his pals had previously seen a different kind of smoke, the smoke from cremation pyres, rising from the death camp, how come they didn't use their camera then? And how come they never tried to get photos showing the actual camp, even if just the fence?

Judging by the 1944 aerial photographs, it seems like the death camp part (the midmost part of the picture below the tongue of trees) was more or less in open view from the tilled fields between the camp and the main railway spur (not on photo, a few hundred meters to the east).

Image

Also, judging by the 1936 map of the future area of the camp (with the railway spur leading to the gravel pit running in N-S direction to the left and the wooded area to the north and east of the camp visible to the right of it) it might be possible to take a photo of the camp from a small wooded area a few hundred meters SE of the death camp area.

Image

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:37 pm)

Laurentz Dahl wrote:
Judging by the 1944 aerial photographs, it seems like the death camp part (the midmost part of the picture below the tongue of trees) was more or less in open view from the tilled fields between the camp and the main railway spur


A correction. Most sources (Arad, Willenberg, Glazar) claim that the death camp area was surrounded west, south, and east by a 5-6 meter tall wall/rampart of sand/soil. However, the sight of such a thing would surely arouse a lot of speculation/interest among local population as well as partisans roaming the area (if it existed that is). Yet no-one of these hundreds or thousands of people seems to have even thought of taking a picture of the whole spectacle - daily arrivals of thousands of Jews, giant walls of sand, enromous plumes of smoke etc. A bit strange isn't it?

Another corrective note. According to the new Treblinka maps on deathcamps.org there was no wall/rampart to the south, so that someone to the south of the camp could see at least the death camp prisoner barracks, as well as possibly also the gas chamber buildings and parts of the massgraves.

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap9.jpg

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:47 pm)

Image

On the page

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... mando.html

this photo is said to show "Jewish Kapo's at Belzec"

On another page on the same site it is said to show "Sonderkommando prisoners in Belzec". The photo is captioned similarly in Kola and on the deathcamps.org website.
Of course, kapos was a subcategory of prisoners so the captions are not mutually exclusive. But why is it claimed by H.E.A.R.T. that it shows kapos? There is nothing in the photo which supports this notion. All prisoners in the Reinhardt "extermination camps" wore civilian clothing and armbands. The only possible sign of any of those people in the picture being kapos is the sticklike object or objects held by the man to the far right. I suppose the "proof" of the people depicted being kapos mainly consist of them looking well fed.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:56 pm)

Laurentz Dahl wrote:Now if the witness and his pals had previously seen a different kind of smoke, the smoke from cremation pyres, rising from the death camp, how come they didn't use their camera then? And how come they never tried to get photos showing the actual camp, even if just the fence?


It might be noted that this man of the resistance worked at the Treblinka train station. He thus had an excellent opportunity to take photos of arriving trains and the camp itself (from the outside) secretly.

Image

Note that the tip of a wooded area might be seen at the lower edge of this photo, less than 100 meters from the southern edge of the "death camp" proper, which according to the Laponder map was surrounded not only by sand ramparts but also by a camouflaged barbed wire fence. I believe this is the small wooded area that appears just above the word "Majdan" on the map posted above. I will try to find an online copy of the larger scale aerial photograph showing the entire Treblinka area later.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:14 pm)

Lubomyr Prytulak's website (www.ukar.org) was taken over and shut down by unashamed Zionist enemies of free speech on certain historical issues, but thanks to the most invaluable website around, the Wayback Machine, it can still be read today.

Mr. Prytulak makes the following remark on the issue of Aktion Reinhardt "Death Camp" photographs:

Holocaust historians must discover photographs of Treblinka

You offer the generalization that photographs of Treblinka do not exist because the SS was forbidden to take photographs:

ARAD: [T]he S.S. people from Operation Euthanasia took an oath of allegiance and this focused on their promise to keep ? to abide by the confidentiallity of this operation ? not to take any photographs, not to tell about it to anyone ? so that the entire operation remained secret. We have the detailed content, a document, of this oath of allegiance and I believe that later on we can present it. (Morning Session, 17 Feb87, p. 218)

However, photographs might have been taken by the SS in violation of prohibitions, and photographs could have been taken by individuals who were not members of the SS. All manner of forbidden subjects were photographed during the war in violation of prohibitions, and there is no reason why Treblinka should be an exception.

Where might photographs be found? Thus, not only might there have been photographs taken by the S.S. or by guards, but there might have been photographs taken from outside the camp by civilians, from the surrounding roads and farms and villages, in which one should be able to see the camp buildings and guard towers, the hills of earth from the excavation of the vast pits, the pits themselves, the column of black smoke from the 870,000 burning bodies, the pile of hundreds if not thousands of corpses being prepared for each cremation fire. On top of that, there might have been aerial reconnaissance photographs taken by the Americans, the British, the Soviets, and even the Germans themselves. And the liberating Soviet army might have taken some photographs ? the Soviets were well aware of the propaganda value of film footage showing their troops conquering or liberating various positions, and had photographers and cameramen accompanying the troops for this purpose. And of course in addition to professional photographers, some Soviet soldiers and officers must have brought along their own private cameras as well. And then there were the various bodies investigating and documenting Nazi war crimes that were either in existence at the time that Treblinka was liberated, or that were created shortly thereafter ? surely one of these would have at least photographed what remained of Treblinka at the time of liberation.

Where to begin the search for photographs? The search for photographs could begin in the countryside surrounding Treblinka, and might consist not only of broadcast appeals, but also actually going from door to door and inviting a search for photographs among family memorabilia. In addition to that, photographs could be sought from members of the German armed forces, and from their families. Soviet military or intelligence units could well have photographs. The importance and the urgency of people coming forward with their photographs could be broadcast in the Polish and German and Ukrainian and Russian media. Generous payment could be offered for photographs. If the Treblinka death camp described by yourself in your courtroom testimony did exist, then it is close to a certainty that somewhere will be discovered photographs documenting this existence.


http://web.archive.org/web/200509011253 ... rad02.html

In this photograph are visible a total of seven cameras, which I have numbered for your convenience. The camera of the individual, likely German, who took the above photograph constitutes an eighth German camera. In no case can we see a soldier's hands that are not holding a camera. From this photograph, then, we may conclude that roughly from half to all of the German soldiers in this particular sample had cameras on hand with which to photograph the hanging of the Soviet partisans.

This observation is capable of leading to the more general hypothesis that German military personnel knew that they were likely to encounter rare and exotic events in their line of duty, and so tended to bring along their cameras, and that the more grisly the scene that they encountered, the more likely they were to photograph it.

In your February 1987 testimony at the trial of John Demjanjuk in Jerusalem, you testified to events that were far grislier than the one captured in the above photograph, and that took place on a daily basis for something like half a year ? and that is the burning on open-air grills at Treblinka of 870,000 bodies, stacked sometimes in excess of ten thousand bodies per pile. Given the gargantuan scale of this operation, and given its duration, it cannot be doubted that numerous photographs of it were taken and continue to exist ? not only of the mountains of bodies, but also of the smoke plumes generated by their burning, and also of the mountains of ash and unburned bone that would have been left behind ? and not only taken by the evidently camera-toting German personnel, but perhaps also by villagers or travelers who happened to come within sight of Treblinka.


http://web.archive.org/web/200508301614 ... rad08.html

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:28 am)

This might have to do with compression, but doesn't look as if the small version of the Belzec work detail as presented by JewishGen and others has been slightly altered to look as if there is a smoke belching pyre in the background (to the left)?

1) In the larger version, you see that there is no line of a smoke cloud, only tree tops (small very slender trees in the front, larger trees behind them), and that the sky above the heads of the men is, well, skycolored

2) the larger version has been slightly cropped to the left; if we had a full large copy we would be able to see more clearly the low structure (rubble, a pile of something) to the back left

3) on the smaller version, the sky above the heads of the men is distinctly white, the color of very white smoke.

4) The tree line seems to have been altered somewhat to look more like the diffuse, curling outline of a cloud.

I'm not saying its a forgery, it could be explainable, but it do look somewhat dubious.

Image

(Above: small version of the photo as presented by JewishGen, captioned "the Sonderkommando of Belzec")

Image

(Above: Larger, cropped version as presented by H.E.A.R.T. captioned as "Jews from labor camp")

Edit: I found a larger uncropped version at H.E.A.R.T.

Image

In this one it is hard to determine if it is smoke or sky we see. How come the larger photo shown above has much better colors (and is sharper)? Has the negative been preserved and a new copy made from it or has it simply been touched up in a computer?

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:57 am)

One may compare the sorting barracks photos with the map of Belzec in December 1942 as found on www.death-camps.org. This is appropriate since the first female working prisoners were supposedly introduced in the late autumn of that year.

The first Rudolf Kamm photo:
Image

The second Rudolf Kamm photo:
Image

The Kurt Franz photo:
Image

Here is the section of the December 1942 map showing the sorting yard and its surroundings:

Image

The dark green lines denotes "Barbed Wire camouflaged with Branches", the red line "Barbed Wire Fence". The four barracks marked "17" are the sorting barracks shown in the photo. "19" is the "Ukrainian Kitchen". "18" is a "Disinfection building". The small red square to the left is a watchtower.

The purple spot inserted by me is the approximate position of the photographer in the first Kamm photo, with the purple lines showing the approximate angle of the photo. The second Kamm photo was taken 3-5 meters to the front of it. The position of the photographer in the Franz picture is roughly the same as in the first Kamm photo but a few meters to the right I think and with a slightly different angle.

Now what do we see and what do we not see in the three photos?

We see
- 3 or 4 working prisoners
- 3 different SS men
- a primitive barbed wire fence, best seen in the first Kamm photo
- bushes or low trees outside of said barbed wire fence

Now those bushes could possibly be interpreted as a camouflaged barbed wire fence utilizing really large tree branches. However, looking at the map we see that the area outside of this fence is wooded, so we should be able to see at least some trees towering above the "camouflaged fence", which seems to be at most 3 or 4 meters tall. Yet we do not. It seems more likely to me that we see the woods outside of the camp perimeter and not any camouflaged barbed wire fence.

We do not see

- any sign of a watchtower, even if it should be discernable in the second Kamm photo as well as in Franz photo

It is hard to see any "disinfection building". There is some kind of low structure in the back of the Franz photo, it may or may not be a building. It does not seem to be visible in the first Kamm photo.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:27 am)

Laurentz Dahl wrote:13. The Infamous Inside-A-Gas-Van-Photo

Image

According to http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/gasvanphoto.html
A group of Jewish men awaiting death in a gas van at the Chelmno death camp.


according to http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/shoah/camps.html
Jewish men awaiting death in a gassing van at Chelmno death camp. 320,000 Jews were murdered in Chelmno death camp; four survived.


I found this photo for the first time in a book today. It faces page 105 in the book Les Crimes Allemands in Pologne issued by The General Committee for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland in Warsaw in 1948. It has been retouched, probably for easier reproduction (the faces of the two men to the right has simply been drawn in). The photo bears the caption

Photographie d'un groupe de victimes prise immediatement avant leur entree dans l'auto - chambre a gaz.
(Prise fait par les Allemands)


Roughly translated: Photo of a group of victims taken immediately before they enter the car - gaschamber ((Photo) taken by the Germans).

However
- Nothing indicate that the men are about to enter a gas van, at Chelmno or somewhere else
- The victims allegedly had to take off all their clothing before they were gassed - yet the man in the middle is still wearing his trousers, with suspenders seen in the photo
- If 50-80 victims were gassed at a time in the vans, more people would surely be seen in the photo, even if it was taken outside the van

One may also note that no-one seems to know by whom the photo was taken or where. There is a corner of a stamp in the lower left corner with text (in Polish?). If we could see the document which the photo is or was attached to, that may have become clear. Pretty likely we are not supposed to.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:33 am)

Two photos of former Belzec campsite in 1944(?)

The following are two photos showing Belzec after the liquidation of the camp, probably taken by Soviet forces or Soviet-Polish "investigators" in 1944. The upper one show the locomotive shed hundred meters or so north of the camp entrance. The lower photo is a panorama of the former camp site. The "death camp" proper with gas chambers and massgraves were uphill.

Image

Image

While studying the lower photo one may recall Mattogno's words in Belzec..., p.42:

Indeed, what strikes the visitor’s eye most of all is the proximity of the camp to the road (the present national road 17, linking Zamo to Rava Russkaya and continuing on to Lviv, called Lemberg by the Germans at the time and Lwów by the Poles) and to the railroad from Lublin to Rava Russkaya. Since the camp was laid out on the side of a small hill, with the gas chambers of the second phase as well as the mass graves allegedly located in the upper portion, a 3-meter-high fence, even if it had been interwoven with pine or fir branches, would not have prevented anyone from observing all phases of the alleged extermination from some distance.


Observing the elevation of the portion of the camp grounds allegedly once having contained the gaschamber building - really the top of the cleared hill - the truth of this above statement becomes evident.

In the same photo one may also observe the average height of the trees surrounding the camp. Based on the looks of the trees in the background left (probably identical to the ones seen in the sorting barrack photos) it seems like my assumption about the non-existence of a camouflage fence in the sorting yard photos is correct.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:52 am)

The elevation of the "death camp" is also evident in this photo taken in the mid-60's from the site of the old memorial.

Image

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:15 am)

One of the more less seen excavator photos:

Image

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:35 am)

Arad on post-liquidation camouflage - contradicted?

Image

On page 371-2 of Yitzhak Arad's Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka..., we read:

(...) [the local peasant's] digging and searches [for treasures at the former belzec camp grounds] endangered the German intent to erase the traces of their crimes and hide the very fact of the existence of a death camp in Belzec. Germans and Ukrainians from Sobibor and Treblinka were sent to Belzec to prevent further diggings and to restore the "peaceful-looking" character of the place. To prevent further searches and digging, Operation Reinhard authorities decided to keep a permanent guard on the spot. A farm was built for a Ukrainian guard who would live there with his family. This precautionary measure was later adopted also in Treblinka and Sobibor. Globocnik wrote about this to Himmler: "For reasons of surveillance, in each camp a small farm was created and occupied by a guard. An income must regularly be paid to him so that he can maintain a small farm."(4) [As source Arad gives a Nuremberg Document PS-4024]
A group of twelve Ukrainians under the command of Unterscharfuehrer Karl Schiffer came from Treblinka to build the farmhouse. Another group arrived from Sobibor to carry out afforestation work there. [Arad next briefly quotes as his source a statement from SS Scharfuehrer Heinrich Unverhau] (...) The afforestation work was completed at the end of October 1943, before the winter set in and the last SS men and Ukrainians had left the place. A former Ukrainian guard from Belzec settled there with his family, and the Belzec death camp had turned into an "ordinary" farm.


Yet, looking at the above photo, which was taken from the Belzec Museum website and apparently shows the former site of the camp - and more or less of all it (which measured roughly 250x250 meters) - sometime after the Red Army had reached Belzec, it seems like a) there are no visible traces whatsoever of any "small farm" on the former camp grounds, and b) if any trees have been planted since the liquidation, they are very few and one can hardly speak of "afforestation".

Image

Judging from the above 1998 aerial photograph of the former camp site, most of the trees present around the memorial &c were planted after the above (1944?) photo was taken.

Also, most, of not all, of the forest in the back right was there from the beginning, inside of the camp perimeters but never cut down, as can be seen in this map of Belzec as it was allegedly in December 1942 (the forested area in question marked by purple circle):

Image

Why by the way have a large densely forested area inside the camp perimeter and fence, where inmates could possibly hide and break out unseen even from the guard towers? Wouldn't it have been imperative for security reasons to denude this area or draw the fence outside it?

Below I show the orientation of the above photo, comparing it to an annotated variant of the 1944 air photo of the Belzec area.

Image

Clearly, no visible effort has been made to plant trees or otherwise cover the "gas chambers" and mass graves area.

(Btw, according to this topographical map the difference in elevation between the ramp and the "death camp" was approximately 10 meters)

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:17 pm)

A question:

I do not own/do not have access to Klee et.al.'s book "The Good Old Days: The Holocaust as seen by it's perpetrators" Does this book contain all the photos from the Franz album? How well are they reproduced?


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