the lack of cyanide residue in the alleged 'gas chambers'

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9898
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:12 pm)

Vallon:
How could this alleged 1945 'analysis' have found:
[..... scrapings from this white layer gave Prussian blue or ferric ferrocyanide, or ferric thiocyanate...]

when the storyline now alleges that there would have been no time for it to form .... since the Zyklon-B was supposedly quickly withdrawn via the alleged 'wiremesh' gadgets?

- Hannover
Last edited by Hannover on Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Turpitz
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 12:57 pm

Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 4 years ago (Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:19 pm)

I would expect plumbing in something that was designed as a morgue, but they could also have used buckets and swabs.


Buckets and swabs, what ever next!

The plans show no plumbing, not even the entry point for the rising main into the structure. Even if you suggest after each supposed gassing a gaggle of scrubbers entered with buckets and rags, where did the water come from? Was there a human chain from a water vat stretching across the camp to the morgue? You are becoming entwined in the twisted logic of the lies that are peddled. It would take a great deal of time to empty the morgues, it would also take a great deal of time to wash them down and the clock's ticking all the time.

On the floor plans there are supposed gravity fed floor drains in the floor, not only are they situated right on top of the foundation that picks up the piers which would mean they would have to punch straight down through the strip foundation, (In wet ground raft foundations should be used to spread the load, not strip foundations which will take the loads to a small surface area and cause settlement) but what purpose would they serve? The base of the morgue was already at a depth that put it near the water table, so where would the water used to wash the morgues out run? The water problems under the morgues was so great it stopped the Germans building them completely sub-terrain, so if one punched a hole in the floor, water would enter into the room rather than flow away, especially during winter as the ground became saturated.

Maybe you could eleborate on your ideas a little, by all means use the plans as reference, after all that is the whole point of plans to use as reference for all the design details and layout isn't it?

Richard Perle
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:45 am

Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:44 pm)

What plans are you talking about? Did the Kremas have showers at all? I have never seen firm word from revisionists about showers. I would expect there to be showers for the workers who, after all, would need to shower for hygiene reasons after having handled infected corpses. I would also expect a morgue to have a water supply.

PLAYWRIGHT
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:17 pm
Location: Milwaukee

Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 4 years ago (Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:08 pm)

Oh geez, now I see what Vallon means, and he's right.

Pressac's statement on the zinc covers is unclear to me now.

In 1945, did they find ferrocyanides on the zinc covers? Or did they test for cyanide by using a test that rendered any cyanide residue on the covers into easily detected ferrocyanides?

Wow. Good piece of logic actually, I missed that.

But if you check above Pressac's comment on the cyanide test, you'll note he does state that the zinc covers WERE painted - he states "whitewashed". Whitewash refers to any number of cheap paints, all of which contain some lead - but I don't know if any contain iron.

User avatar
Scott
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 7:00 am

Postby Scott » 1 decade 4 years ago (Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:54 pm)

Turpitz wrote:The plans show no plumbing, not even the entry point for the rising main into the structure.


So what? The blueprints probably don't show electrical wiring either.

My understanding is that the morgue was initially plumbed but that freezing temperatures encouraged the Germans to tear the pipe out. There were still floor drains, however, and it's no big deal to drag in a rubber garden hose for a spraying. But working showerheads would have been a lot more believable than dummy ones, and useful for cleanup, too.

:D

Vallon
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:55 pm

Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:40 am)

PLAYWRIGHT wrote:But if you check above Pressac's comment on the cyanide test, you'll note he does state that the zinc covers WERE painted - he states "whitewashed".
You are right, I missed that. Pressac took the following picture (from page 487):
Image
Compare this with the rear view on page 233 - not whitewashed.

Hannover wrote:Vallon quoted:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0484.shtml

[Some of these upper ventilation hole covers from Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorium II made of zinc sheet covered with a white layer, were submitted to toxicological analysis in December 1945. After appropriate chemical treatment, scrapings from this white layer gave Prussian blue or ferric ferrocyanide, or ferric thiocyanate...]

Oh really?
Who did this 1945 study?
Do we have the complete study that this 1945 'analysis' came from so that we can verify the claims?
Germar Rudolf wrote:
In 1945, the Krakow Institute for Forensic Research (Instytut Ekspertyz Sadowych) prepared a report on a forensic investigation of Auschwitz that was submitted in evidence in the 1946 Auschwitz trial in Krakow, Poland.
...
The Krakow forensic investigators took hair, presumably cut from inmates, and hair clasps from bags found by the Soviets in Auschwitz. Tested for cyanide residues, both hair and clasps showed positive results. Additionally, a zinc-plated metal cover was tested for cyanide and found to have a positive result as well. The Krakow Institute claims that this metal cover once shielded the exhaust duct of a supposed homicidal "gas chamber" at Birkenau.

The tests conducted by the institute were qualitative, not quantitative, analyses. In other words, they could only determine whether or not cyanide was present, not how much of it was there.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n2p-3_Rudolf.html
The most logical explanation for cyanide in the hair is that the bags of hair had been fumigated. I think I have seen quotes about the forensics from the 1946 proceedings on the web, but I cannot find it now. From what I remember, it did not give that much more detail.

Scott wrote:According to Pressac the blue staining that can be seen today at the fumigation chambers BW5 at Birkenau was not present during and right after the war but developed later (perhaps in conjunction with outdoor weathering or pollution, although this makes little sense since the staining is mostly inside).
If it is such a slow process, may it is not just inorganic chemistry (as in those churches). Maybe bacteria are involved, the kind that reduces iron to Fe2+. Something like that seems to happen in the "blue earths", near abandoned gas works.
Last edited by Vallon on Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

Vallon
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:55 pm

Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:37 am)

Hannover wrote:Who did this 1945 study?
I found the name now - it is the Robel report from the Polish forensic institute. I cannot find it online. Van Pelt wrote:
The wire mesh columns had been totally dismantled after the cessation of gassings and before the demolition of the crematoria, and no remains were found. Yet the dismantling crews had not been able to remove the ventilation system as they were a structural part of the walls, and consequently had overlooked to remove the zinc covers mentioned by Kula. They were dislocated when the demolition squads dynamited the gas chambers, but six of them were retrieved in the rubble of crematorium II and sent for analysis in the forensic laboratory in Cracow. The laboratory report noted that these were covered with a thin, white-coloured and strongly smelling deposit. The laboratory retrieved 7.2 grams of the deposit and dissolved it in water. Sulphuric acid was added to this solution, and the resulting gas was absorbed in an absorbent material. This was divided in two and subjected to two different tests, each of which revealed the presence of hydrocyanide.
http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/e ... vaniii.asp

grenadier
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:07 am

Postby grenadier » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:07 am)

Vallon IMO makes too much of these zinc-plated covers. As Rudolf points out:
We face a similar problem with the zinc-plated covers allegedly used to cover the ventilation ducts of the supposed "gas chambers": their exact origin and history is unknown.

All we have is this claim, which cannot be verified at all.

Also very important is:
The tests conducted by the institute were qualitative, not quantitative, analyses. In other words, they could only determine whether or not cyanide was present, not how much of it was there.

PLAYWRIGHT
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:17 pm
Location: Milwaukee

Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:54 am)

grenadier wrote:Vallon IMO makes too much of these zinc-plated covers. As Rudolf points out:
We face a similar problem with the zinc-plated covers allegedly used to cover the ventilation ducts of the supposed "gas chambers": their exact origin and history is unknown.

All we have is this claim, which cannot be verified at all.

Also very important is:
The tests conducted by the institute were qualitative, not quantitative, analyses. In other words, they could only determine whether or not cyanide was present, not how much of it was there.


Well, I was the one who brought them up, thinking that they were a possible example of ferrocyanides from the "gas chambers" themselves, until Vallon pointed out to me that the analysis says no such thing.

And, they still exist, and could be retested today. Qualitatively and quantitatively. If they DO contain significant CN residue, then the question of why no blue staining in the Leichenkeller's becomes even more puzzling.

In particular, I'm dying to know the chemical composition of the whitewash that the covers are painted with. BTW, if the whitewash contains significant amounts of lead, which is the norm in a form of paint known as "white lead", there should be no CN in it at all, as lead doesn't react with CN or HCN, and is often used as a chemical insulator for exactly that reason.

grenadier
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:07 am

Postby grenadier » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:28 am)

PLAYWRIGHT wrote:
And, they still exist, and could be retested today. Qualitatively and quantitatively. If they DO contain significant CN residue, then the question of why no blue staining in the Leichenkeller's becomes even more puzzling.


1-PLAYWRIGHT, I think you missed my point. It would be puzzling if we knew for sure this metal cover was found at the Leichenkeller. What I am saying is there is no way to know the provenance of this alleged exhaust duct cover. Unless you accept their(Poland's Communist regime) word for it. That is not rational though. THERE IS NO WAY TO VERIFY THE CLAIM AS TO WHERE IT WAS FOUND.

PLUS, the tests were qualitative, i am referring to what was done back then. If it still exists and can be retested, fine, still IMO, wouldn´t prove anything because of point 1 above.

Why didn't they test the walls instead?

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9898
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:34 am)

Vallon, you are dodging, please stop.

I asked, you failed to answer:
How could this alleged 1945 'analysis' have found [deposits]
when the storyline now alleges that there would have been no time for it to form .... since the Zyklon-B was supposedly quickly withdrawn via the alleged 'wiremesh' gadgets?

You can't have it both ways, especially since you alleged that the supposed gas chambers' were incredibly hosed & mopped to prevent cyanide residue from forming.
In 1945, the Krakow Institute for Forensic Research (Instytut Ekspertyz Sadowych) prepared a report on a forensic investigation of Auschwitz that was submitted in evidence in the 1946 Auschwitz trial in Krakow, Poland....

In other words, a thoroughly corrupt communist government makes claims, produces nothing but their claimed results and we're supposed to believe it? Where is the verifiable and complete study? Why can't we see it?

Please address the points directly.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Vallon
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:55 pm

Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:36 am)

grenadier wrote:As Rudolf points out:
We face a similar problem with the zinc-plated covers allegedly used to cover the ventilation ducts of the supposed "gas chambers": their exact origin and history is unknown.

All we have is this claim, which cannot be verified at all.
We have Van Pelt's claim that these zinc-plated covers were retrieved from the rubble of Krema II. If there is indeed some judicial documentation of that claim in the trial proceedings of 1946, I think Rudolf's statement is exaggerated. He may dispute their provenance, but he presents no arguments for his doubts, and he acts as if these covers were found in the scrap yard or something. Unless better arguments are presented, I regard them as evidence of the use of HCN in the Leichenkeller.

Rudolf's other argument is that the test done is just a qualitative test. Well, it is the same kind of prussian blue reaction as takes place in the walls (but in the walls that reaction is uncontrolled and not standardized). Because it is qualitative, there is no need for quantitative determination of the cyanide concentrations. It does not give more information than what the eye can see. The blue patterns are very irregular, as this panoramic view from Majadanek shows (VR - you can zoom and turn around):
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/res ... /MAJD3.htm

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9898
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:46 am)

Respond Vallon.

How could there be alleged cyanide residue on these vents if (in response to Leuchter & Rudolf not finding residue commensurate with gassings) it's now claimed that 'no cyanide residue is present because the wiremesh devices holding the outgassing Zyklon-B were withdrawn before residue could form'?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Vallon
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:55 pm

Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:50 am)

Hannover wrote:How could this alleged 1945 'analysis' have found [deposits] when the storyline now alleges that there would have been no time for it to form .... since the Zyklon-B was supposedly quickly withdrawn via the alleged 'wiremesh' gadgets?
The Zyklon was in the chamber and HCN was in the atmosphere for at least a quarter or so per day the chamber was used. That may well be enough to leave traces on zinc, especially when the poisonous air was pumped through these ventilation covers.
You can't have it both ways, especially since you alleged that the supposed gas chambers' were incredibly hosed & mopped to prevent cyanide residue from forming.
No, I never said that was the purpose. Cleaning would have been necessary to get rid of all the mess you get from people dying. I just said that this was one of the differences with fumigation chambers, and that it might explain why Prussian Blue did not form.
Also, Scott told us that it might take years before insoluble Prussian Blue is formed.
In 1945, the Krakow Institute for Forensic Research (Instytut Ekspertyz Sadowych) prepared a report on a forensic investigation of Auschwitz that was submitted in evidence in the 1946 Auschwitz trial in Krakow, Poland....

In other words, a thoroughly corrupt communist government makes claims, produces nothing but their claimed results and we're supposed to believe it? Where is the verifiable and complete study? Why can't we see it?
I think I have seen this 1945 Robel-report on the web. Rudolf refers to it. IHR says that they have a copy, maybe they published it. I cannot find it just now. That is not the same as dodging.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9898
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:35 am)

Vallon said:
The Zyklon was in the chamber and HCN was in the atmosphere for at least a quarter or so per day the chamber was used. That may well be enough to leave traces on zinc, especially when the poisonous air was pumped through these ventilation covers.

"quarter", quarter what?

"Maybe" it would form on zinc but not on porous, moisture laden walls?
The tendency of porous wall material in moist underground rooms to accumulate and to bind hydrogen cyanide, physically as well as chemically, is hundreds of times higher than that of sheet metal.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n2p-3_Rudolf.html#1


How was your "poisonous air" pumped through these vents?
Show us the pumps.
Show us where the pumps for this are in the plans.
Show us the vents in the plans.

The alleged gas chamber in Krema II is absurdly alleged to have killed 500,000. Divide that by 2000 to get the number of alleged gassings, but curiously & incredibly there is no residue on the walls in support of this.

Please, you definitely claimed that hosing & mopping were responsible for removing cyanide residue. Now you backtrack. Why?

THIS is what the IHR says about the report (the 'report' is not a study, it's only a 'report' on claimed results), ahem:
In 1945, the Krakow Institute for Forensic Research (Instytut Ekspertyz Sadowych) prepared a report on a forensic investigation of Auschwitz that was submitted in evidence in the 1946 Auschwitz trial in Krakow, Poland.[see note] This expert report should be treated with caution, because forensic examinations and judicial procedures under the Communists have been anything but trustworthy, and Poland was in 1945 a Stalinist satellite. One need only point to the example of Katyn, the Soviet account of which was fully endorsed by Poland's Communist regime.[see note]

As to whether or not homicidal gassing with hydrogen cyanide took place in Auschwitz, these analyses are worthless, for three reasons:

There is no way of determining the origin and history of the hair and hair clasps obtained from bags in Auschwitz. Assuming that the analytic results are correct, from a chemical point of view the following can be noted: A positive test for cyanide in human hair proves only that the hair has been exposed to HCN (hydrogen cyanide). But that result does not suffice to establish that the persons from whom the hair came were killed by cyanide. It is a good deal more likely that the hair had already been cut when it was exposed to the gas: in German as well as Allied camps, it was standard to cut off prisoners' hair for hygienic reasons. When hair over a certain length was later recycled,[see note] it had to be deloused beforehand (often with Zyklon B, the active ingredient of which is hydrogen cyanide). Hence, positive cyanide results from loose hair do not prove human gassings.

We face a similar problem with the zinc-plated covers allegedly used to cover the ventilation ducts of the supposed "gas chambers": their exact origin and history is unknown. It would have been much preferable for the Krakow Institute to have analyzed samples from the walls of the alleged "gas chambers" instead of obtaining samples from pieces of metal:
Whereas the origin and history of these metal covers was uncertain, the origin and (at least partly) the history of the walls of the morgues allegedly used as "gas chambers" was known.

In contrast to cement and concrete, zinc-plated metal covers prevent the formation of stable iron cyanide compounds.[see note] The developing zinc cyanide compounds are relatively unstable and must be expected to vanish in a short period of time.[see note]

The tendency of porous wall material in moist underground rooms to accumulate and to bind hydrogen cyanide, physically as well as chemically, is hundreds of times higher than that of sheet metal.
As a matter of fact, the letter accompanying the samples sent to the Krakow Institute actually mentions that a mortar sample allegedly taken from a so-called "gas chamber" is enclosed as well and should also be tested for cyanide. However, for unknown reasons, the Krakow Institute did not mention this mortar sample in its report, perhaps because it did not show any positive result.


There is no evidence that either analysis has been successfully reproduced.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n2p-3_Rudolf.html#1


- Hannover
Last edited by Hannover on Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests