the lack of cyanide residue in the alleged 'gas chambers'

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Richard Perle
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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:38 am)

These vents provide only problems for holocaust true believers. As Hannover said, if the walls show no trace of HCN then why does the vent? There'd surely need to be a whole lot of those vents if the large morgues were to be vented of gas.

But at the end of the day, anyone who has the slightest knowledge of communist conduct will not waste much effort arguing that these vents are proof of gassing in the morgue of Krema II. Assuming tests were even carried out (which would be foolish in itself), how do we know that the vent isn't from a delousing chamber? The Soviets (as well as the Americans) had a habit of mistaking, purposely or not, the delousing chambers for places of execution. Plus there is anecdotal evidence that the Dachau chamber was built by the Americans, as is there similar evidence for the Soviets building a gas chamber in Sachsenhausen, not to mention the false claims made about the delousing chambers in Majdanek and the shower room in Mauthausen.

I almost feel stupid debating such a trivial piece of evidence. The Soviet Auschwitz team included, after all, two members of the Soviet team who pinned Katyn on the Germans. All the other crap the Soviets have presented in the post war trials, even up to the 1980s with the Forged Demjanjuk ID card, gives good reason to doubt what a communist says he had for breakfast.

This vent and all claims made about it give revisionists no cause for headaches.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:07 pm)

A great example of deflection and attempted wordgames; I said to Vallon:
You can't have it both ways, especially since you alleged that the supposed gas chambers' were incredibly hosed & mopped to prevent cyanide residue from forming.


Vallon replies:
No, I never said that was the purpose.

Purpose has now been injected.

What Vallon said earlier in the thread:
Maybe one of the important difference is that the gas chambers were hosed down after every exposure to Zyklon B.


I submit that this is double talk and game playing, not confident and sincere debate.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:45 pm)

Hannover wrote:How could there be alleged cyanide residue on these vents if (in response to Leuchter & Rudolf not finding residue commensurate with gassings) it's now claimed that 'no cyanide residue is present because the wiremesh devices holding the outgassing Zyklon-B were withdrawn before residue could form'?


Well, obviously the ventilation system would be in contact with the gas even after the still-outgassing Zyklon itself was removed. We would expect a hotspot to be there, although, as has been noted by others, the chemical reaction might be different in metal vents than one formed on walls. As was pointed out by Richard Perle, it would be interesting to see what residues were found in the ventilation systems of the delousing chambers and how much.

I don't think the morgue "vents" are any problem for Revisionists since the experiments cannot be independently verified and the origin of the vents is questionable without trusting Communist authorities. We also don't know how much cyanide was present and how this compares with anything else.

:D

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:59 pm)

Vallon wrote:
We have Van Pelt's claim that these zinc-plated covers were retrieved from the rubble of Krema II. If there is indeed some judicial documentation of that claim in the trial proceedings of 1946, I think Rudolf's statement is exaggerated. He may dispute their provenance, but he presents no arguments for his doubts, and he acts as if these covers were found in the scrap yard or something. Unless better arguments are presented, I regard them as evidence of the use of HCN in the Leichenkeller.

Here we have an impasse! Van Pelt's claim is based on what the commies claimed(the things they claim!). Had the commies formed an international comission with the participation of their allies, neutral countries,etc, then I'd believe. That is not how it was done though. You accept their stuff at face value whereas I do not! :wink:

Vallon wrote:
Rudolf's other argument is that the test done is just a qualitative test. [...]Because it is qualitative, there is no need for quantitative determination of the cyanide concentrations. It does not give more information than what the eye can see.

This is in disagreement with what Rudolf says. Besides it doesn't make sense. Quantity is surely important in this case. Traces of cyanide have been found in places like the washroom of crematory I, which was never even fumigated. I trust my common sense and Rudolf's chemistry better than yours.

Richard Perle wrote:
But at the end of the day, anyone who has the slightest knowledge of communist conduct will not waste much effort arguing that these vents are proof of gassing in the morgue of Krema II.


MY EXACT THOUGHTS!

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:08 pm)

Scott said:
Well, obviously the ventilation system would be in contact with the gas even after the still-outgassing Zyklon itself was removed. We would expect a hotspot to be there, although, as has been noted by others, the chemical reaction might be different in metal vents than one formed on walls.

But the claim of residue on vents but not on walls, which are 'hundreds of times more likely to form residue than sheet metal vents' is absurd.

The True Believers want to say the alleged wiremesh devices stopped formation of residue on the alleged gas chamber walls, but yet they claim residue was found on metal vents which are hundreds of times less likely to have residue than the walls.

Vallon also claims that 'poisonous air' was pumped through these 'vents'

He has not answered:

- How the alleged "poisonous air" was pumped through these 'vents'?
- Has not shown us the pumps.
- Has not shown us where the pumps for this are in the plans.
- Has not shown us the vents in the plans.

That dog don't hunt.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:58 pm)

Hannover wrote:The True Believers want to say the alleged wiremesh devices stopped formation of residue on the alleged gas chamber walls, but yet they claim residue was found on metal vents which are hundreds of times less likely to have residue than the walls. [Emphasis added.]


I don't know if that is necessarily true about the unlikelihood of residue in the ducts, but I agree that the wire-mesh-column and Zyklon removal reasoning is absurd.

I think Pressac holds that the ventilation was the same for the "homicidal gaschamber" as for the morgue; i.e., it had a blower in the building attic that pushed incoming air from the crematoria building roof through ductwork to triangular vents along the side of the roof in the Leichenkeller basement, and a blower in the building attic which pulled air from along the floor in the morgue basement and through ductwork to exit at the roof of the Krema building. So, inside the morgue fresh air would have blown in from the ceiling to the heads of visitors and putrid air from the floor exhausted.

If this ventilation system had really been modified for homicide then it would have circulated the air in a loop throughout the chamber and blown heated air through the Zyklon to accelerate degassing and minimize wasted pesticide, and then it would have ventilated the chamber normally, removing the gas. That's how Degesch fumigators worked. But nothing like that was done.

:D

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:56 pm)

Scott said:
I don't know if that is necessarily true about the unlikelihood of residue in the ducts, but I agree that the wire-mesh-column and Zyklon removal reasoning is absurd.

Ducts? No, it's metal vent covers.

I repeat:
There is no commensurate residue on the walls, so how could metal (which is hundreds of times less likely to form residue than the porous & moist walls) form residue?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:04 am)

Hannover wrote:Ducts? No, it's metal vent covers.


Whatever. The gas would still be concentrated in the ventilation system.

But we would need to compare this with residues on metal ducts or vent covers in the fumigation chambers and know what results to expect with an occasional fumigation of the morgue.

We can't duplicate the Krakow tests and we don't even know where they got the metal vent covers for certain, so they don't count for much.

Communist authorities after the war could not distinguish fumigation from homicide--as Pressac amply showed--so where the covers really came from and how is a legitimate objection.

:D

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:01 am)

Hannover wrote:There is no commensurate residue on the walls, so how could metal (which is hundreds of times less likely to form residue than the porous & moist walls) form residue?

I agree that there is an enormous difference, but it is the other way around. That is why cyanide is used in gold mining. The cyanide binds to metal, and only silver and gold are commonly found as native metal. Because of the enormous preference of cyanide to bind to metal, gold and silver cyanides leach out. But cyanide is even more likely to bind to zinc than to the noble metals. That is why one can precipitate out the gold by adding zinc shavings or zinc dust (the Merrill-Crow process). (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_process.)

Hannover wrote:He has not answered:

- How the alleged "poisonous air" was pumped through these 'vents'?
- Has not shown us the pumps.
- Has not shown us where the pumps for this are in the plans.
- Has not shown us the vents in the plans.
I do not know the answers to all of that. There were ventilators. Topf had specified wooden ventilators (Holzgebläse). Pressac says that that was because the Topf engineers feared that metal ventilators would be rapidly corroded by cyanide. Mattogno points out that iron ventilators were used instead. (Source: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Mattogno.html.)

I do not know whether these pumps were connected to the same ducts as the zinc covers, I do not know where all the ducts went, and I do not know what way the flow was.

I had asked for arguments that would call in question the claimed provenance of these covers from the rubble of Krema II. I would need something with more substance than a reference to communism.

Scott wrote:We can't duplicate the Krakow tests.
There are non-destructive tests one could do instead to see if there is cyanide on the things that Pressac took pictures of. Raman spectroscopy has a good sensitivity for cyanide, and it would not affect the museum object in any way. If there is a peak at around 2100 cm^-1, there is cyanide on the surface.

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Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:11 am)

Geez, the plot is thickening on these air duct covers:

I should have noted this right away - at one point Pressac says that they are "zinc" covers, but zinc is too expensive and too ductile to make a whole cover out of...

...later, he points out that the covers are "galvanized". Galvanization, by definition, is the process of electro-coating iron or steel with zinc to make it rust-resistant.

And until very recently, thanks to accidents like the one I'm linking here, zinc galvanization of iron plates was done through (ta-da) a zinc-cyanide electroplating process!

http://www.pfonline.com/columns/0903pers.html

The first possible source of the cyanide residue they found.

Secondly, Pressac says that the "white matter" on the covers was scraped back to the metal, and it was in the "white matter" that they found the cyanide. Is this white matter an oxidation layer (zinc oxide powder is a fire-hazard, btw). A reaction between the zinc and HCN? (If so, why so MUCH of it?) OR, is it the whitewash paint that Pressac mentions? What is the composition of that paint? If it has lead in it, I can guarantee it won't have cyanide in it. And they found the "white matter" in pretty large quantities, grams and grams of it, that would be consistent with paint, but not oxidation or any daughter product of zinc/HCN reaction.

I have no reason to doubt that the covers are from the Leichenkellers, they are not consistent with the ventilation system in the disinfestation buildings, which he also posts pictures of. However, he states among other things, that of the two Leichenkellers that did have a forced ventilation system - II and III - there were 145 of these covers alltogether. Wow, why so many, that's like 52.5 per room? They only found six intact in the Leichenkellers? And why were any found in the Leichenkellers after demolition, the ventilation systems in Krema's II and III were dismantled, and parts can still be found in the building yard. Why where these covers left behind? Galvanized metal at that time was valuable.

In fact, I'm assuming that most of the covers were swiped from the building yard after the war, both Birkenau and Auschwitz were looted for building materials by local Poles before they were declared state museums, always a complication in the physical evidence.

So, two new thoughts.

a) Zinc galvanization of the iron/steel ventilation covers was undoubtedly done through a zinc-cyanide electroplating process. Could this be the source of the cyanide they found?

b) If they found the cyanide in the paint, rather than the metal, what was the composition of that paint? Pressac is VERY vague about that, and it's a critical question.

As Vinnie Barbarino would say, "I'm so confused!"

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:36 am)

Vallon,

No one said cyanide doesn't bind to metal, why are you again dodging my point which was:
.... the claim of residue on vents but not on walls, which are 'hundreds of times more likely to form residue than sheet metal vents' is absurd.

Why did you ignore the walls, Vallon?

You claim "poisonous air" was pumped through these vents?

I asked you:
Show us these pumps.
Show us where the pumps for this are in the plans.
Show us the vents in the plans

You said:
"I do not know the answers to all of that."

How about 'none of that'. "Pumps", Vallon. The location and size are important, but you cannot produce the evidence asked for.

the ventilation system for Morgue 1, Krema II
G. Rudolf

5. The Ventilation System
[claimed 'Auschwitz expert'] Prof. van Pelt writes [p. 208]: It is important to note here that there is no indication that either Bischoff or Prüfer envisioned a homicidal use for the smaller morgue in the new crematorium. But the presence of the powerful ventilation system charged the design from its inception with a genocidal potentiality which would only require small modifications in the design to be actualized. Indeed: it was the presence of such a ventilation system in the crematorium of the main camp which, seven weeks earlier, had inspired Lagerführer Fritsch to use the mortuary of the crematorium as an experimental gas chamber.

Germar Rudolf:
Prof. van Pelt doesn't give any reference for his experimental gassing claim. But what is more important: He hides the actual performances of the ventilation systems, which indeed reveal that morgue 1, the alleged 'gas chamber', was never intended to be used as a homicidal 'gas chamber'.
1. All morgues in Birkenau had ventilations systems with some 10 air exchanges per hour, a normal performance, as this was required by German war-time law for underground morgues (5-10 air exchanges per hour)[30]
2. A comparison between the performance of the alleged 'gas chamber' and that of the alleged victim's undressing room reveals that there is nothing sinister with the ventilation of morgue 1 ('gas chamber'), as its performance is even lower than that of the undressing room: morgue 1 ('gas chamber'): 9.94 exchanges per h morgue 2 ('undressing cellar'): 10.35 exchanges per h

3. War-time literature recommended some 70 air exchanges per hour for professional delousing chambers, a standard that must be expected for 'professional' homicidal 'gas chambers' as well. [31] In fact, that is 7 times more than that of the systems of these morgues! After a close inspection of the documented facts it is clear that Prof. van Pelt's "powerful ventilation system" is nothing but a fiction.

[30] Re. requirements see W. Heepke,Die Leichenverbrennungs-Anstalten (die Krematorien), Verlag von CarlMarhold, Halle a.S. 1905, p. 104; re. performance in Auschwitz: Archive ofAuschwitz Museum, D-Z/Bau, nr. inw. 1967, pp. 246 - 247; cf. C. Mattogno'sresearch on this in"Auschwitz: Das Ende einer Legende", in: H.Verbeke (ed.),Auschwitz: Nackte Fakten, VHO, Berchem 1995 http://www.vho.org/D/anf/MattognoR.html ;English;Auschwitz:The End of a Legend,Granata, Palos Verdes 1994. [31]P. Puntigam, H. Breymesser, E.Bernfus,Blausäurekammern zur Fleckfieberabwehr, Sonderveröffentlichungdes Reichsarbeitsblattes, Berlin 1943, p. 50. The documents quoted here and innote 30 can be found at C. Mattogno's quoted article (note 30); http://www.vho.org/D/anf/MattognoR.html

then you said:
I had asked for arguments that would call in question the claimed provenance of these covers from the rubble of Krema II. I would need something with more substance than a reference to communism.

Again, you ignore my points which, besides the sham nature of communist 'evidence' (see Katyn), are:

- There is no analysis to review and verify, only claimed 'results'.

- Why haven't the advocates of this alleged report on claimed results made the analysis available?

- There is no way to know where these alleged 'vents' came from, a garbage heap?, if at all

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:51 am)

Many questions, I will deal with one:
Hannover wrote:- Why haven't the advocates of this alleged report on claimed results made the analysis available?
I now found the documentation from 1945. Unfortunately only in German translation. Bailer-Galanda gives it is an appendix (page 10-13) of this .pdf-file:
http://www.doew.at/service/archiv/mater ... chwitz.pdf

I will first give the cover letter with which judge Jan Sehn and prosecutor Edward Pachalsky sent samples to the forensic institute:
In der Beilage übersenden wir dem Institut Haare, die von Frauenleichen stammen und diesen nach der Vergasung und vor der Verbrennung in den Krematoriumsöfen von Brzezinka abgeschnitten wurden, verpackt in einen Papiersack, der gemäß der Aufschrift 25,5 kg Haar enthält, mit der Bitte, den Inhalt [des Sackes] zu durchsuchen und in einem dem Art. 254 entsprechenden Verfahren sowie im Zusammenhang mit Art. 123, 138 der Strafprozeßordnung zu untersuchen, um festzustellen, ob und welches Gift (in den Haaren) enthalten ist.

In derselben Art und für denselben Zweck wird um Untersuchung der Bleche von den Ventilationsöffnungen der Gaskammer (Leichenkeller Nr. 1 des Krematoriums Nr. II in Brzezinka) gebeten, die während des Lokalaugenscheins im Krematorium gefunden wurden, und des Mörtels, der von der Seitenwand dieser Kammer entnommen wurde. Jene Gegenstände (4 komplette Abschlüsse der Ventilationsöffnungen aus Blech und 2 beschädigte sowie der Mörtelklumpen) sind dem Institut am 12. 5. 1945 zur Aufbewahrung übergeben worden.

The first paragraph is about hair. I will translate the second paragraph:
We also ask for examination of the sheet [or plate] iron from the ventilation openings of the gas chamber (Leichenkeller Nr. 1 of the Krematorium Nr. II in Birkenau), that was found during the on-site inspection in the Krematorium, and of the mortar that was taken from the side wall of this chamber. These objects (4 complete terminations of the ventilation openings of sheet iron and 2 damaged ones, and the pieces of mortar) were handed over to the [forensic] institute on May 12, 1945.

Jan Z. Robel replied on December 15, 1945. It is about three pages, so I will be selective.
Die Abschlüsse hatten die übliche Form und eine Konstruktion rechteckiger Kästen für die Ausstattung von Ventilationsöffnungen und waren aus Zinkblech angefertigt. Die Oberflächen aller Teile waren mit weißem, stark anhaftendem Belag bedeckt.

Das Untersuchungsmaterial wurde vorbereitet, indem an einem Lüfter die Oberfläche bis auf das blanke Metall abgeschabt wurde, und zwar die ganze Innenseite des Abschlusses und der der Gaskammer zugewandte Teil des Gitters. Es wurden 7,2 g [Untersuchungsmaterial] erhalten.
The terminations had the usual shape and a contruction of rectangular boxes for ventilation openings. They were made of Zinkblech (galvanized plate, zinc-coated iron). The surfaces of all parts were covered with a white, strongly adherent layer.

The sample material was prepared, by scraping off under ventilation the surface down to the shiny metal, i.e the entire inside of the termination and the side of the grid that faced the gas chamber. This produced 7.2 gram sample material.
They then poured sulfuric acid on the sample material and gas developed. Then they did a prussian blue reaction and a rhodanid reaction, both of which were positive for cyanic acid.

That was one page. The other two pages are about the hair, and about objects found in the bags with hair.

I had cited Van Pelt:
The laboratory report noted that these were covered with a thin, white-coloured and strongly smelling deposit.
I do not see the source for this "strongly smelling". It seems that they scraped of the material an einem Lüfter, "under a fan"? It would clearly be better to have the Polish original with a translation in English. But this is all I could find on the web.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:17 pm)

Vallon said:
I now found the documentation from 1945. Unfortunately only in German translation. Bailer-Galanda gives it is an appendix (page 10-13) of this .pdf-file:
http://www.doew.at/service/archiv/mater ... chwitz.pdf

Wrong.

What we have is another report / alleged summary of claimed results after a supposed request for analysis, not the study itself.

As even Vallon is forced to acknowlege, the alleged study was supposedly done by the Poles, but we have German text claiming results from a study that curiously, no one can show us, no one can read and review; where is the actual Polish study?

This 'document' link posted by Vallon is not verifiable in any way, nor can we conclude that it is factual. No other claimed study could be treated in this manner and avoid absolute ridicule.

I notice that Vallon ignores my question about the walls ..... again.

I also notice that he ignores the quoted text from Germar Rudolf.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:18 pm)

The laboratory report noted that these were covered with a thin, white-coloured and strongly smelling deposit.


I'll be coming back to this thread with more, I have many thoughts on this, but for now, I'll address this.

The vent covers they tested were those six that were found in the demolished crematoria, at least according to Pressac's book. The "thin, white-coloured and strongly smelling deposit" puzzles me, but, if I may speculate, it quite possibly was a layer of cement or plaster dust that arrived there as a result of the dynamiting of the Krema.

When mixed with water, plaster dust becomes something as basic and corrosive as Clorox, and if I remember correctly, that was a big hazard wafting out of the WTC debris. It would have a pungent odor, something like Clorox.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:29 pm)

The vent covers they tested were those six that were found in the demolished crematoria, at least according to Pressac's book.

things the Believers cannot answer:

- Pressac's work has been shown to be blatently fraudulent, why should we believe him in regards to where these vent covers came from? Was he merely told so.

- If they were from the demolished crema, why can't they be produced?

- Why can't we actually see and read the Polish study that supposedly analysed them for cyanide?

- And ofcourse, why no residue on the walls and ceilings?

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