Why did Irving say "Nazis killed millions of Jews"

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theTRUTH
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Why did Irving say "Nazis killed millions of Jews"

Postby theTRUTH » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:47 am)

"For the last 15 years, I have made no bones at all about the fact that the Nazis killed millions of Jews in different methods around the world, around their empire, particularly on the Eastern Front."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6204481.stm

Why did Irving say "Nazis killed millions of Jews in different methods..." as if his research verified unprovoked mass-murders of innocents, when the vast majority of Jews actually died along the Eastern Front fighting the German army as terrorists or members of the Soviet Army? Is he pandering to the Holocaust promoters by admitting unprovoked mass-murders but not at Auschwitz or other camps, or did he just select the wrong words to describe his feelings?

More correct words would have been "Hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed, mostly on the Eastern Front, as members of the Soviet Red Army, and as terrorists, who killed a million German soldiers from '41 to '44."
"Israel must invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the methods of provocation..." Moshe Sharett, Israeli's Foreign Minister ('48-'54), & Prime Minister ('54-'56).

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:09 pm)

That's been covered at:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3919
see quote below

As to why Irving would say such nonsense, we must ask why anyone would say such nonsense. The dumbest damn voodoo ever known.

- Hannover

"For the last 15 years, I have made no bones at all about the fact that the Nazis killed millions of Jews in different methods around the world, around their empire, particularly on the Eastern Front," he said.

Absolutely false.

In a interview with anti-Revisionist Michael Shermer he claimed that no more than 500,000 Jews died, mostly of disease.

And Irving has said:
"According to the evidence that I have seen, there were no gas chambers anywhere. The evidence that we have been shown, the aerial photographs, the eyewitnesses, it's all very spurious indeed."

"more women died on the back seat of Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquiddick than ever died in a gas chamber in Auschwitz"

Well then, that would leave the unsupportable claim of 1-2,000,000 einsatzgruppen-shootings-into-pits.
Irving, nor anyone else, can show us the mass graves that are said to exist, said to be proof.

Never has a single mass grave been shown that corresponds to the 'holocaust' stories. Not one.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:25 am)

I would caution everyone against the temptation to take any quote attributed by the media to a revisionist -- or to anyone who has been branded one, in any case -- as literally true and in context.

The recent Irving quote "Mel Gibson was right!" is, by the way, a fair one, but it's also the only one carried by the papers to the moon and beyond. It's not difficult to understand why.

Or why old Debbie Lisptadt -- you know, the much-quoted paragon of "freedom for all, provided some speak and others shut up" -- is foaming at the mouth and spitting venom at a certain judge in far away Ruritania (pour ne pas encourager les autres?)". See here, here and here.

I have just seen a commentary by Michael Santomauro in Ha'aretz, where he posts a letter by Irving.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/804297.html
(eighth comment)

Thursday/Friday, December 21-22, 2006 midnight...

Mr. Santomauro,

Thank you ... . your kind thought is much appreciated, especially as we lost our home and everything on March 20, as a result of Austria`s kidnapping me. But now that nightmare is over.

I just checked back into London a few hours ago after two days still held in a police jail in Vienna after being released from the main Vienna prison when our appeal was upheld on Wednesday December 21. I have the fine oratory of my 84 year old defence lawyer Dr Herbert Schaller to thank for the unexpected victory in the appeal court. I spent over 400 days in solitary confinement in Austria`s oldest prison, sentenced in February to three years` jail for an opinion I expressed in two talks seventeen years ago. Not nice.

However we shall now gird ourselves for a fresh legal battle in Austria, (1) to overthrow my deportation order, and (2) to put Austria before the UN Court of Human Rights.

The enemy are spitting with rage, and -- with one final quote uttered by me to the Agence France Presse ("Mel Gibson was right!") in a phone interview in the midst of a final police interrogation -- I was out of there and, belatedly, on a plane to London. It got in around 10 pm this evening, too late for all the TV shows that had lined up. But we have made a great dent in "their" cause, and had a real victory for Real History. More soon, and you`ll find my website back on line shortly.

David Irving (now back writing in London)
pp Focal Point Publications

//

"Deep down, I believe that a little anti-Semitism is a good thing for the Jews - reminds us who we are." --Jay Lefkowitz (NYT Magazine. Feb.12, 1995. Page 65).

--Jay Lefkowitz is now Deputy Assistant to the President for Domestic Policy.

Peace.

Michael Santomauro
Editorial Director
253 West 72nd street Suite1711
New York, NY 10023

http://www.tadp.org
212-787-7891

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Postby theTRUTH » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:13 pm)

"For the last 15 years, I have made no bones at all about the fact that the Nazis killed millions of Jews in different methods around the world, around their empire, particularly on the Eastern Front."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6204481.stm

Irving should be asked to explain what he meant by "...Nazis killed million of Jews in different methods...".
"Israel must invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the methods of provocation..." Moshe Sharett, Israeli's Foreign Minister ('48-'54), & Prime Minister ('54-'56).

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:07 pm)

the Truth:
Irving should be asked to explain what he meant by "...Nazis killed million of Jews in different methods...".

It's certain he will be asked.

ASMarques makes sense in that the media are known for absolute lies ('wipe Israel off the map'), and taking quotes out of context. Skepticism is probably best at this time.

ASM's links to Lipstadt posts are priceless. I have quoted them at the end of this post for posterity, some points:

- While attempting to claim Irving is anti-free speech, and he is not, I note that Irving was suing for slander, not to prevent Lipstadt from speaking freely on any subject, a big difference

- Lipstadt whines about 'right wing' politics in a way which clearly implies the desire to stop them from speaking freely

- Lipstadt decries 'politics' yet turns around and tries to use politics to her imagined advantage, she utterly ignores the politics behind the seizure and imprisonment of Revisionists, and attempts to hide the politics of the so called 'holocaust'

- she goes on about race while she is in fact a virulent judeo-supremacist, see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3778
excerpt:
The politics of Deborah Lipstadt are pervaded by a hypocritical double standard. She actively worked to create a racially integrated, multicultural society in the United States. And, all throughout her books she pays lip service to “racial equality,” and ardently condemns non-Jews that reject ethnically integrated, multiracial societies outside of Israel. Yet, she most passionately identifies with Israel—an ethnically segregated society whose government actively works to ensure Jewish supremacy and to destroy any chance of an egalitarian, multiracial society from developing between Jews and Arabs.

Far from working for an integrated society in which Jews and Arabs functioned as social and political equals, the Jews who founded Israel created a society in which Israeli Jews dominate "Israeli" Arabs, a separate and unequal society in which discrimination against non-Jews and Jewish supremacy are an integral part of the established social order.

- Hannover

the links and text as mentioned above:
http://lipstadt.blogspot.com/2006/12/ir ... ation.html
David Irving has been given probation by an Austrian judge. According to the NY Times bureau chief for Germany, the Judge apparently has ties to Haider, the leader of the right wing in Austria. I am told that many left of center journalists in Austria are very distressed by this intrusion of pure politics into the judicial process. More as the story develops

posted by Deborah Lipstadt @ 12/20/2006 12:48:00 PM

http://lipstadt.blogspot.com/2006/12/ju ... aring.html
Judges in Irving's probation hearing

Irving case was heard by a three judge panel. The chief judge was a man named Ernest Maurer. According to people with whom I have spoken in Vienna [this has been reported on the Austrian media] he is a follower or sympathizer of the Jorg Haider's right wing party the FPÖ. Some of the decisions of his decision have been overturned by the European Court for Human Rights for unlawful restriction of the freedom of the press.

The Austrian daily "Standard" quotes from a book where Maurer expressed Nazi-like ideologies including "Rassereinheit" (purity of race) for an "idealistic view" (Idealvorstellung).

So for all those who are rejoicing about a putative victory for freedom of speech, note that neither the judge nor the defendant are believers in such a notion. Remember, Irving offered to drop the case against me if I apologized to him and agreed to have all my books pulped.

Not exactly the actions of a paragon of freedom of speech.....

posted by Deborah Lipstadt @ 12/20/2006 01:05:00 PM

http://lipstadt.blogspot.com/2006/12/mo ... -case.html

More on the Judge in Irving's Austrian case

The Austrian daily, Standard and other Austrian media outlets have provided some additional details about the judge. For those who are championing Irving's release as an act of free speech triumphant, pay attention to the judge's background. It is not irrelevant that the presiding judge was Ernest Maurer who is a sympathizer of the right wing who has had some of his decisions overturned by the European Court for Human Rights because they unlawfully restricted freedom of the press. Apparently Maurer had ruled for Jorg Haider, leader of Austria's right wing, when he sued newspapers and commentators who criticized him. The Standard quotes from a decision by the judge in which he express classic Nazi ideologies including Rassereinheit (purity of race).


As I said in my previous post: this is not a simple matter of freedom of speech.

posted by Deborah Lipstadt @ 12/21/2006 03:36:00 AM
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby disillusioned » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:56 am)

What Irving meant was...

"I have a family and a life and I don't want to go to prison forever and this bologne is my ticket out of here..."

Kind of like how Hoess meant..

"I no longer want my testicles to be crushed and I would like to sleep sometime in the future.."

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:59 pm)

Manipulating Europe with lies. I guess it can go on and on.

Lipstadt:
Apparently Maurer had ruled for Jorg Haider, leader of Austria's right wing, when he sued newspapers and commentators who criticized him. The Standard quotes from a decision by the judge in which he express classic Nazi ideologies including Rassereinheit (purity of race).


Can you imagine a judge rules in favor of someone over press criticism, and somehow incorporates "racial purity" in the judgment. LOL.

Lipstadt is quite the deceiver.

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Postby Reinhard » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:28 pm)

A mp3-file of Irving's interview to the BBC can be listened to at:

http://de.altermedia.info/radio/David_IrvingBBC_Interview_231206.mp3
[...] Nor do I say it didn't happen. I say the Nazis quite clearly killed millions of Jews. [...]

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Postby Barrington James » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:02 pm)

What did Irving mean when he said " millions of Jews had been killed...at the Rhinehart camps?" What camps? Millions? Eastern Front? As soldiers? Internees? He said it didn't happen in Auschwitz- OK -We agree but then where? what? He can't be talking about Babi Yar can he?

What did he mean when he said Raol Hilberg was a great historian? Is a great historian one who is correct 60% of the time? 75%?
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

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Postby Revquery » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:53 pm)

I would be inclined to hold fire on Irving. He has never really studied revisionism, he has never really agreed with all revisionist conclusions, but, he's one of only a few to do prison time for his views. I respect that.

Keep in mind he is 68, he will be 69 in March, he has no money, no belongings, and no prospects, and he has a 14 year old daughter to finish raising (as well as a sick companion.)

I thought the interview was pretty good. Yes, he does believe millions of Jews were killed, or died, yes, he does believe (apparently) what is said about the "Reinhardt" camps, Sobibor, Belzec, and Treblinka. He is on our side on Auschwitz.

Irving called Hilberg a great historian or something like that because he is the best they got. Also, he set Hilberg up to quote him ("80% of the Holocaust hasn't been properly researched.")

The only irritating thing about the interview, to my mind, was the interviewer, who spent most of the ten minutes trying to get Irving to say "yes" or "no" to the "Existence of the Holocaust." What a moron.

Irving has my best wishes.

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Postby diaz52 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:21 pm)

disillusioned wrote:What Irving meant was...

"I have a family and a life and I don't want to go to prison forever and this bologne is my ticket out of here..."

Kind of like how Hoess meant..

"I no longer want my testicles to be crushed and I would like to sleep sometime in the future.."


True enough. I think you're right, and I can't say I can blame him. The guy has been thru a lot and at some point has to put his personal responsibilities to his family ahead of some lonely quest for the truth. Despite people's reservations about Irving, I know personally he has had a impact on my views regarding the Holocaust, especially when I was just beginning to be exposed to views the establishment would consider heretical. So, his writings and speeches, for me at least, cracked open the door to the idea that the establishment's Holocaust story is full of it, and that its all about hysteria and not about history. In this way he could be said to be something of a "gatway" historian between establishment orthodoxy and revisionist.
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Postby kk » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:13 pm)

Kind of like how Hoess meant..



He is a half backed revisionist , but he is the best historian we've got.
In fact the best historian alive, that is...
So stop grousing about him, he's done enough already.


Maybe the best policy would be to persuade him to say a few words about
the other revisionists persecuted by Germany and Austria, instead of just
insisting for a boycott to the idiotic german scholars.

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Postby disillusioned » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:28 pm)

Oh, I don't blame him KK...

I'm not particularly religious, so I don't see the value in martyrdom. He's dealing with people who have no interest whatsoever in the truth. He knows this. He knows they are looking to make an example out of him. They have a vested interest in perpetuating the lie.

Shoot, look at what they are doing to poor Mr. Demjanjuk.

I think they will try again to go after Irving. Its just a matter of time.

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Postby oberststuhlherr » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:36 am)

My own speculation is that Irving is trying to say that it doesn't really matter if he says 6-million Jews died. That's not what they're on him about. BTW, million can mean 100,000 in antiquated parlance.
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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:15 am)

Barrington James wrote:What did Irving mean when he said " millions of Jews had been killed...at the Rhinehart camps?" What camps? Millions? Eastern Front? As soldiers? Internees? He said it didn't happen in Auschwitz- OK -We agree but then where? what? He can't be talking about Babi Yar can he?

What did he mean when he said Raol Hilberg was a great historian? Is a great historian one who is correct 60% of the time? 75%?


"Rhinehart"= Reinhardt = Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec, three tiny (generally 250x250 m) camps in the area of Poland annexed by Germany in 1939 (the General Gouvernate) wherein allegedly 1.8 million Jews were gassed with carbon monoxide, buried in mass graves and then dug up and burned on outside pyres 1942-1943.

You can read more about Treblinka and Belzec in those books:
http://vho.org/dl/ENG/t.pdf
http://vho.org/dl/ENG/b.pdf

I find it hard to believe that Irving really believes the absurd claims about these camps, even if I'm aware that Irving has not read much revisionist literature on the subject. Does he really believe a few train records, some deportation reports, absurd witness accounts such as Wiernik's and a few vague confessions by elderly Germans in show trials to be evidence of mass gassings at those camps? At least it seems to be his official stance that Globocnik and maybe Himmler were behind gassings (of some scale or another) at those places, unbeknownst of Hitler.


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