Richard Rashke's "Escape from Sobibor"

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Laurentz Dahl
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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:02 am)

I have e-mailed Mark Weber asking for a source on the statement in the letter to Rev. Herbener:

For a time, the acting commandant of Sobibor was Gustav Franz Wagner. Some years after the war, he was found living in Brazil and was put on trial there. Jewish witnesses testified in court that he was responsible for 150,000 deaths and took special delight in brutally killing women and children. Wagner, however, swore that Sobibor had been a "model" work camp, not an extermination center. The Brazilian court rejected the prosecution's case and decided to neither convict nor extradite him. Wagner was released in 1979, but was found dead a short time later at his farm, knifed in the chest.


http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p173_Weber.html

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Postby StuDewan » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:59 pm)

yep, I can read portuguese pretty well...

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:44 pm)

I found another Wagner reference by googling the vho site:

El 20 de julio de 1978, era detenido en Rio de Janeiro un tal Franz Wagner, acusado de haber sido Jefe del campo de concentración de Sobibor en Polonia, donde se dió muerte, según las denuncias presentadas por los estados de Israel, Alemania Federal, Polonia y Austria, a un millón de judíos.

Dejando a parte la ridiculez de que en el campo de Sobibor que no era de los 15 mayores pudieran haberse exterminado nada menos que un millón de judíos, se da la curiosa circunstancia de que un verdugo de tal magnitud era completamente desconocido hasta ahora. Y más curiosas todavia parecen las declaraciones de Franz Wagner:

«En Sobibor yo era carpintero, y me dedicaba a construir casas para los oficiales y prisioneros». (64)

No hace falta ser adivino para vaticinar que, si finalmente las autoridades brasileñas ceden a las presiones y acceden a la extradicion. habrá un nuevo linchamiento legal, al caso se le dará bombástica publicidad en la prensa mundial. y Alemania Federal pagará nuevas indemnizaciones al Estado de Israel. Cuando fueron linchados todos los generales, se empezó con los coroneles. Luego hubo de extraer con fórceps del anonimato al Teniente Coronel Eichmann.


64 «Deja». Bilbao. 3 IX. 1978.


I suppose this reference is to a Portuguese newspaper.

The following is from an Brazilian article on (it seems) extradition laws (for some reason I couldn't copy text from the pdf so I had to type it, thus no diacritics):

Importanto decisao proferiu tambem o STF no pedido de extradicao de Gustav Franz Wagner, solicitada pela Alemanha, por Israel e pela Austria (Ped.Extr.356, 358 e 360). O tribunal entendeu de rejeitar os pedidos da Austria e de Israel, e no da Alemanha, depois de largo debate, afirmou que havia interrupcao da prescricao no direito brasileiro (por decisao proferida contra co-reus), mas que, perante o direito alemao, a prescricao se consumara. Foram vencidos os Ministros Cordeiro Guerra e Xavier de Albuquerque. Relator o Min. Cunha Peixoto (RTJ 92/954).


http://www.fragoso.com.br/cgi-bin/helen ... uivo26.pdf

Translations would be very welcome.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:14 pm)

A schematic summary of the 1979 BBC documentary on Wagner:

http://ram1.huji.ac.il:4500/ALEPH/ENG/J ... CC/0597845

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:53 pm)

Sobibor survivor Chaim Engel on the capture of Wagner:

So that really was for them the purpose of being there, so they could steal and take the things. On top of that what they murdered, that they could steal and take the things with them. Wagner at the end of the war he ran away. He ended up in Brazil and one of the survivors Stanislaw Szmajzner , who recently died – he was in Brazil too, and when it was Hitler’s birthday they, all these Germans make a coming together and he happens to be there and this Stanislaw Szmajzner he, he somehow found out that he saw that – he went looking for these people.

He saw him there and he recognised him, and he said, “You are Wagner.” He said, “No, No. No” Anyway it ended up that they took him to jail and while he was in jail he hanged himself.

So that was the story with Wagner. But while being in a camp we were really – if we were afraid to the most – it was for him. So really that was really a beast – he was so vicious – he was looking already that he can murder someone, kill somebody.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... engel.html

Engel wasn't in Brazil to witness the meeting, so it's probably a case of misremembering a story he heard or read, but is interesting that the encounter between Smajzner is described radically different from the standard one (derived from Szmajner). Anyone who believes Engel should remember that Wagner was not extradited and supposedly committed suicide outside of jail in his lodging in Atibaia.

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Postby StuDewan » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:01 am)

the text about Wagner, in portuguese

Importanto decisao proferiu tambem o STF no pedido de extradicao de Gustav Franz Wagner, solicitada pela Alemanha, por Israel e pela Austria (Ped.Extr.356, 358 e 360). O tribunal entendeu de rejeitar os pedidos da Austria e de Israel, e no da Alemanha, depois de largo debate, afirmou que havia interrupcao da prescricao no direito brasileiro (por decisao proferida contra co-reus), mas que, perante o direito alemao, a prescricao se consumara. Foram vencidos os Ministros Cordeiro Guerra e Xavier de Albuquerque. Relator o Min. Cunha Peixoto (RTJ 92/954).


roughly translates to

"Important decision was taken by the STF [Supreme Court] on the request of the extradiction of Gustav Franz Wagner, requested by Germany, Israel and Austria (requests No. 356, 358 and 360). The court decided to deny the requests by Austria and Israel, and, in Germany´s case it [the court] said that in brazilian law is possible the interruption of the lapsing (as decided against other co-defendants) but per german laws it had lapsed. Were defeated the Ministers Cordeiro Guerra and Xavier de Albuquerque. Reported by Min. Cunha Peixoto (RTJ 92/954."


The spanish text

No hace falta ser adivino para vaticinar que, si finalmente las autoridades brasileñas ceden a las presiones y acceden a la extradicion. habrá un nuevo linchamiento legal, al caso se le dará bombástica publicidad en la prensa mundial. y Alemania Federal pagará nuevas indemnizaciones al Estado de Israel. Cuando fueron linchados todos los generales, se empezó con los coroneles. Luego hubo de extraer con fórceps del anonimato al Teniente Coronel Eichmann.


says

"You don´t need to be a clairvoyant to foresee that, if the brazilian authorities finally give up to the pressure and agree with the extradiction, there will be a new legal lynching and it will be given bombastic publicity at the world press, and Germany will pay new indemnities to Israel. When they have lynched all generals they started with the colonels. Soon it had to extract by forceps, from the anonimity, Lt. Colonel Eichmann."

hope this can help...

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:11 pm)

@StuDewan

Thank you very much for the translation.

I will take look at what was written in different newspapers (that I have access to) around November 3rd 1978.

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:03 pm)

Laurentz wrote:
"Alexander Donat reports similarly in his Death Camp Treblinka that
most of the "survivors" he contacted would have nothing to do with him. And Donat, in contrast to Rashke, was a Jew and himself a "survivor
of nine death camps" (according to his memoir The Holocaust Kingdom)."

Laurentz, I'd like to ask you if you could start a thread on A.Donat's book, same as you have with Rashke's.
It is my understanding the book is mostly contributions from several
Jewish survivors from Treblinka including Wiernik.
I have Wiernik's book but Donat's compilation is very hard to find and
too expensive anyway.
I am very curious as to what these other survivors claimed re the
mass gassing procedures at Treblinka.
Would it be possible for you to share that info with the rest of us here?

Btw, did Weber get back to you on the source to Wagner claiming
Sobibor had been a model work camp and not an extermination camp?

This stuff about the assisted suicide of Gustav Franz Wagner in Brazil reminds of an article which appeared last year in the most influential Brazilian newspaper, the São Paulo based "Folha de São Paulo".

The sensationalist headline read "São Paulo's police protected Nazi
Executioner".

The article claimed that the police had protected one Herbert Cukurs,
a Latvian aviator and collaborator of the Nazis during wwII and that
this had been a discovery of a Brazilian university student from
USP(University of São Paulo) named Erick Godliauskas Zen
researching the archives of DOPS.

According to the story, Cukurs had emigrated to Brazil after the war
and started a business in Rio de Janeiro under his own name.
In Rio, 1960, 2 survivors named Frida Schmuskovits and
Josef Gavrowski recognized Cukurs as the the commander of the "Perkonkrust", a "facist" outfit which on orders from Herbert
Cukurs allegedly commited 2 massacres in Riga in 1941,
massacres that supposedly cost 25-30.000 Jewish lives.

According to Cukurs son, the Jews in Rio put his father out of
business and Cukurs then moved to the state of São Paulo,
in the southeast of Brazil.

In the capital city, also named São Paulo, Cukurs stroke friendship
with several Brazilian air force officers.
It seems that the Jewish community in São Paulo, the most numerous
in Brazil, started harassing him and his family and thus the police posted a couple of men to protect his house.
Then, Cukurs received a business proposal from some people in
Uruguay, a country to the south of Brazil, but he would have to go
there.
He discussed it with his friends from the air force who advised him not
to go as they thought it could be a set up.
This was in 1965. Enticed by the proposal, Cukurs ended up travelling
to Uruguay where he was murdered with gun shots and hammer blows.
Cukurs had never been tried, let alone convicted of anything but for
the newspaper he was already guilty and a nazi butcher.
Cukurs son, a truck driver from São paulo, told the newspaper his father
had told him and his family he was innocent and had not murdered
any Jews during the war.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:47 pm)

grenadier wrote:Laurentz, I'd like to ask you if you could start a thread on A.Donat's book, same as you have with Rashke's.
It is my understanding the book is mostly contributions from several
Jewish survivors from Treblinka including Wiernik.
I have Wiernik's book but Donat's compilation is very hard to find and
too expensive anyway.
I am very curious as to what these other survivors claimed re the
mass gassing procedures at Treblinka.
Would it be possible for you to share that info with the rest of us here?


I don't own the book. I just have copies of some of the pages (the Wiernik account, which is available online) that a friend sent to me. I am saving money right now to buy the book. A you mentioned it's out of print and used copies cost about 100 USD. Once I get it I will start a thread, if now one does it before me. I believe some users here have access to the book. Sorry to disappoint you!

Btw the hard/impossible-to-find books always seems to be the most interesting ones, or rather, the most embarrassing to the Holocaust high priests. I am also searching for a copy of Bernard (or Ber) Mark's The Scrolls of Auschwitz. Pretty hard to find a copy of that too.

Btw, did Weber get back to you on the source to Wagner claiming
Sobibor had been a model work camp and not an extermination camp?


Not a single line!

I think I will have through checking through all 1978-1980 Le Monde issues by myself, when I have time left over.

This stuff about the assisted suicide of Gustav Franz Wagner in Brazil reminds of an article which appeared last year in the most influential Brazilian newspaper, the São Paulo based "Folha de São Paulo".

The sensationalist headline read "São Paulo's police protected Nazi
Executioner".

The article claimed that the police had protected one Herbert Cukurs,
a Latvian aviator and collaborator of the Nazis during wwII and that
this had been a discovery of a Brazilian university student from
USP(University of São Paulo) named Erick Godliauskas Zen
researching the archives of DOPS.

According to the story, Cukurs had emigrated to Brazil after the war
and started a business in Rio de Janeiro under his own name.
In Rio, 1960, 2 survivors named Frida Schmuskovits and
Josef Gavrowski recognized Cukurs as the the commander of the "Perkonkrust", a "facist" outfit which on orders from Herbert
Cukurs allegedly commited 2 massacres in Riga in 1941,
massacres that supposedly cost 25-30.000 Jewish lives.

According to Cukurs son, the Jews in Rio put his father out of
business and Cukurs then moved to the state of São Paulo,
in the southeast of Brazil.

In the capital city, also named São Paulo, Cukurs stroke friendship
with several Brazilian air force officers.
It seems that the Jewish community in São Paulo, the most numerous
in Brazil, started harassing him and his family and thus the police posted a couple of men to protect his house.
Then, Cukurs received a business proposal from some people in
Uruguay, a country to the south of Brazil, but he would have to go
there.
He discussed it with his friends from the air force who advised him not
to go as they thought it could be a set up.
This was in 1965. Enticed by the proposal, Cukurs ended up travelling
to Uruguay where he was murdered with gun shots and hammer blows.
Cukurs had never been tried, let alone convicted of anything but for
the newspaper he was already guilty and a nazi butcher.
Cukurs son, a truck driver from São paulo, told the newspaper his father
had told him and his family he was innocent and had not murdered
any Jews during the war.


Thank you for sharing this story. Very illuminating.

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:19 pm)

Laurentz wrote:

"I don't own the book. I just have copies of some of the pages (the Wiernik account, which is available online) that a friend sent to me. I am saving money right now to buy the book. A you mentioned it's out of print and used copies cost about 100 USD. Once I get it I will start a thread, if now one does it before me."

I am looking forward to it. In order to better nail down the gassing
claims it's very important to look at what the "witnesses" said in
their own words. It's usually very revealing...

Btw, what about this Stanislaw Szmajzner, does he claim to have
witnessed gassings at Sobibor?

Best regards.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:07 pm)

grenadier wrote:Btw, what about this Stanislaw Szmajzner, does he claim to have
witnessed gassings at Sobibor?


Not personally, but he claims to have received detailed letters from a friend in Lager 3 (the "death camp" proper) describing the gassing process. According to this friend, the gas chambers first utilized diesel exhausts, but were later switched to Zyklon B - completely at odds with the accepted version.

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4326

There were supposedly no survivors from Sobibor's "death camp proper", in contrast to Belzec and Treblinka, where workers from the alleged gas chambers and mass graves escaped and survived the war. However, we have

1) Jakob Biskubicz claiming to have seen a gas chamber with collapsing floor

2) Moshe Bahir who also claims that he together with unnamed others received communications from Lager 3 detailing the killing process. Bahir, in his witness account published by Miriam Novitch, describes the gas chamber as having the same kind of collapsible floor as described by Biskubicz

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3354

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:11 am)

A slightly related news item on Jewish "revenge groups" killing German camp personnel decades after the war:

Missing Nazi 'was killed by revenge group'

Edit:

According Simon Wiesenthal Center's Efraim Zuroff the story is "pure fantasy"

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nl/ ... ct=4517559

Btw, take a look at this website. It's pure, unadulterated judeosupremacist chutzpah supreme.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:51 am)

Three articles from The Times on Wagner that may be of interest:

Image

Image

Image

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:38 pm)

Hi Laurentz,

I've found out some info on Szmajzner's book.
It seems it was first published in Brazil, 1968, in Portuguese by the
Bloch publishing house. The Blochs are Brazilian Jews who used to
own besides this publishing house, a TV station.

The title of Szmajzner's book is "Inferno em Sobibor. A tragédia
de um adolescente judeu." which translates into: "Hell in Sobibor.
The tragedy of a Jewish teenager".
It's a 307 page book and it's been long out of print.
If I ever get a copy of it, I'll post the most interesting parts so we
can compare with what you have.

Best regards.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:32 pm)

grenadier wrote:Hi Laurentz,

I've found out some info on Szmajzner's book.
It seems it was first published in Brazil, 1968, in Portuguese by the
Bloch publishing house. The Blochs are Brazilian Jews who used to
own besides this publishing house, a TV station.

The title of Szmajzner's book is "Inferno em Sobibor. A tragédia
de um adolescente judeu." which translates into: "Hell in Sobibor.
The tragedy of a Jewish teenager".
It's a 307 page book and it's been long out of print.
If I ever get a copy of it, I'll post the most interesting parts so we
can compare with what you have.

Best regards.


Thanks a lot for the reference. Rashke didn't bother to give the original title.


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