Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

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dantesnake
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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby dantesnake » 9 years 3 months ago (Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:41 am)

Greetings

Altough I am holohoax denier and I debate constantly with people in my surroundings on that topic,
Every now and then I bump into some piece of information that I cannot neglect or ignore,
This time it was following piece of text:

HCN is much more effective on warm-blooded animals, including humans, than it is on insects. The exposure period (to HCN) is much greater in delousing operations than in homicidal gassings. This means that a much lower concentration is necessary to kill people than to get rid of lice, etc. In delousing, concentrations of up to 16,000 ppm (parts per million) are sometimes used, and exposure time can be up to 72 hours; while 300 ppm will kill people in fifteen minutes or so.

Therefore, the HCN in the extermination chambers hardly had time to form compounds on the walls. While some claim that the gas would need a lot of time to kill, because it would have to spread all over the chamber, it simply is not true; the gas chambers were not that large (those in Krematoria II and III were about 210 square meters), and the Zyklon-B was dropped from four openings (still visible in the ruins of the gas chambers). Since the concentration used was higher than the lethal one, death was very swift.


Source: http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-06.html

Now I did read both Leuchter and Rudolf reports but i did not find any reply from a revisionist to this matter.
If someone could enlight me, I would be most grateful.



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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby Lamprecht » 9 years 2 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:19 pm)

dantesnake wrote:Greetings

Altough I am holohoax denier and I debate constantly with people in my surroundings on that topic,
Every now and then I bump into some piece of information that I cannot neglect or ignore,
This time it was following piece of text:

HCN is much more effective on warm-blooded animals, including humans, than it is on insects. The exposure period (to HCN) is much greater in delousing operations than in homicidal gassings. This means that a much lower concentration is necessary to kill people than to get rid of lice, etc. In delousing, concentrations of up to 16,000 ppm (parts per million) are sometimes used, and exposure time can be up to 72 hours; while 300 ppm will kill people in fifteen minutes or so.

Therefore, the HCN in the extermination chambers hardly had time to form compounds on the walls. While some claim that the gas would need a lot of time to kill, because it would have to spread all over the chamber, it simply is not true; the gas chambers were not that large (those in Krematoria II and III were about 210 square meters), and the Zyklon-B was dropped from four openings (still visible in the ruins of the gas chambers). Since the concentration used was higher than the lethal one, death was very swift.


Source: http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-06.html

Now I did read both Leuchter and Rudolf reports but i did not find any reply from a revisionist to this matter.
If someone could enlight me, I would be most grateful.

see: 'the lack of cyanide residue in the alleged 'gas chambers'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=392
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby Hannover » 9 years 2 months ago (Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:32 pm)

That canard has been very well covered.

In the thread you posted to, but apparently did not read:
'Cyanide Chemistry at Auchwitz, see: 'The Polish Investigation'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... c&start=15

and:
The holocaust Industry's Daniel Keren has this to say about 'Hydrocyanic Compound Levels'. Note that Keren curiously ignores master chemist, Germar Rudolf.
From this thread also:
'Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz'
Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz
Keren is simply demolished.

and:
The false argument, "it takes more cyanide to kill insects than it does humans, hence low HCN residue in the alleged gas chambers" is refuted by Germar Rudolf here:
'The 'Gas Chambers' of Auschwitz and Majdanek'
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html
and:
Read more in sec. 4 of:
'Critique of Claims Made by Robert Jan Van Pelt'
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby PotPie » 9 years 2 months ago (Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:13 am)

dantesnake wrote:Every now and then I bump into some piece of information that I cannot neglect or ignore,
This time it was following piece of text:

Source: http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-06.html

Now I did read both Leuchter and Rudolf reports but i did not find any reply from a revisionist to this matter.
If someone could enlight me, I would be most grateful.


This has indeed been addressed. Rudolf as I recall explained that in order to reach a level lethal to 1,000 or 2,000 people in the allotted time frame which would kill within the maximum 15 minutes afforded by claimed witnesses, a lot more than 200ppm would have had to have been dispersed in the gas chambers. You have to consider the large space, the large number of people and so on.

This doesn't count other glaring inconsistencies in the gassing claims such as disposal of continuously off-gassing crystals, and in Birkenau KIV and V the lack of ventilation and ability to quickly retrieve the outgassing crystals which would have been scattered about and likely under piles of the dead, still letting off dangerous gases. An even bigger glaring consistency, perhaps, is the lack of HCN exposure symptoms in the claimed Sonderkommando. One cannot simply don a gas mask and go into a building with vapors present, corpses covered in poisonous residues, and scattered crystals still emitting toxicity and come out with no reported ill effects. These men claimed to have handled upwards of 10,000 corpses per day - with their bare hands. The amount of poison they would have absorbed doing that alone should have at least left them with longterm exposure effects. Keep in mind that according to testimonies, the "hosing down" process was not to rinse off residues (as it would have been insufficient anway) but rather to clear away the feces and blood.

As an aside, the notion that the Sonderkommando would have to hose away menstrual blood is laughable. As a woman I know full well that such a thing is nonsense. Women do not bleed like stuck pigs unless they have a hormonal problem which gives them hemmoraghic menstrual flow. The chances of needing a hose to rinse away menstrual blood are laughable, to put it mildly.

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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby Älghuvud » 9 years 3 weeks ago (Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:02 pm)

I am also a skeptic. But what about this one?

Finally, the undeniable evidence that the SS ordered Degesch to remove the indicator odor, mandated under German law, which was added to the Zyklon B in order to provide a warning to human beings that the lethal stuff was nearby.
"They can't prove I wrote it." said the Knave, "There's no name at the end."
"That only makes the matter worse." said the King, "You must have meant some mischief, or else you'd have signed like an honest man."

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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby Hannover » 9 years 3 weeks ago (Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:45 pm)

Älghuvud wrote:I am also a skeptic. But what about this one?

Finally, the undeniable evidence that the SS ordered Degesch to remove the indicator odor, mandated under German law, which was added to the Zyklon B in order to provide a warning to human beings that the lethal stuff was nearby.

I suggest actually reading this thread, see page 2 of this thread, i.e:
- There was no SS order to remove the odor from Zyklon-B, no order has ever been shown, nor can it be shown.

The removal of the warning scent was decided upon by DEGESCH and not by the SS. This came out during testimony given by Mr Breitweiser during the course of the Auschwitz Frankfurt trial in 1961. Breitweiser was in charge of disinfestation at Auschwitz. He was never charged with or convicted of a crime.

By 1944 Zyklon was being supplied to Auschwitz without the warning ingredient, but the reason for this exceptional practice was a supply shortage rather than any desire, as alleged by Exterminationists, to deceive potential murder victims. One cause of considerable concern to some of the German technicians at the time was that since the warning ingredient also contributed to the chemical stability of the Zyklon-B, its removal could present a serious hazard to the end-user. One result of the removal of the warning ingredient seems to have been the shortening of the shelf-life of even properly sealed cans of Zyklon-B. {footnote 7)
http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/7/1/Berg73-94.html

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby Älghuvud » 9 years 3 weeks ago (Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:10 pm)

Thank you, Hannover.
"They can't prove I wrote it." said the Knave, "There's no name at the end."
"That only makes the matter worse." said the King, "You must have meant some mischief, or else you'd have signed like an honest man."

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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby Lamprecht » 9 years 3 weeks ago (Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:51 pm)

Hannover or anyone else, what about the claim that there was only one reported delousing of the "Gas chambers"?

I saw Mathis claim this in a previous thread and nobody seemed to acknowledge is. I don't have an actual source for the claim.

But I see that the alleged gas chambers have higher residue amounts than the prisoner barracks, which have some residue and were most likely deloused at least once.

So in the case that the gas chamber was only deloused once, how does it have higher concentrations of cyanide than the prisoner barracks? Was it only deloused once?
Is there something different in the walls?
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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby Hannover » 9 years 5 days ago (Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:25 pm)

Please be specific. What claim? What thread?

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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby Lamprecht » 9 years 5 days ago (Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:36 pm)

Hannover wrote:Please be specific. What claim? What thread?

- Hannover

Found it:

Krema II was fumigated exactly once according to records, by the way.

viewtopic.php?p=5902#p5902

I want to know how it has more cyanide residue than the barracks if it has only been deloused once - or if it has been deloused more and this statistic from Mathis is wrong.
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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby Hannover » 9 years 1 day ago (Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:03 pm)

I want to know how it has more cyanide residue than the barracks if it has only been deloused once - or if it has been deloused more and this statistic from Mathis is wrong.

Where is it said that Krema II has more residue than the barracks?

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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby astro3 » 8 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:15 am)

Conclusive proof
Concerning the often-made objection that ‘bugs are harder to kill than humans,’ here re-posed by ‘dantesnake’: here are mean values for residual wall cyanide, which I obtained by combining the Leuchter and Rudolf data-sets, and then dividing them into three groups: those from delousing chambers (DCs), those from what were alleged to have been human gas chambers (AHGCs), and finally the ‘controls’ ie sampled from barracks, wash rooms etc. They give:

1. DCs 4960 ± 3800 (n=15) ppm
2. AHGCs 2.7 ± 2.7 (n=16) ppm
3. Controls 1.7 ± 1.3 (n=11) ppm

http://www.codoh.com/newrevoices/nrvnkleuchter.html 'Leuchter twenty years on,' originally published in Smith’s Journal.

So, fifteen samples from delousing chambers had around five thousand parts per million of residual wall cyanide, sixteen from the 'Kremas' (alleged-human gas chambers) averaged three parts per million, and eleven from barracks etc averaged two parts per million.

The point is, that whatever fantasies you wish to weave about how the human gas chambers could have functioned – eg the absurdly low value of 300 ppm as a lethal dose that you quote – you simply cannot end up with NO SIGNIFICANT ELEVATION of residual wall cyanide in such chambers, after much repeated use; whereas you have SEVERAL THOUSAND TIMES more residual cyanide in the actual, real gas chambers, i.e. the delousing chambers.

Thus the chemistry beautifully distinguishes between fantasy and reality.

Leaving no shadow of doubt.

Its all thanks to Iron! Ah, that permanence of the ferrocyanide bond! It gives us the absolute winning card, the unlosable argument.

Comparing the above groups two and three, yes one is higher than the other. Lamprecht is quite right to point this out. But, if we apply a t-test this difference is NOT SIGNIFICANT. That is the core refutation of the holohoax myth. It kills it. Based on 27 measured samples of wall iron cyanide, there is no significant difference between wall samples from alleged human gas chambers, and those from control or background levels.

The t-test kills the holohoax hypothesis, because its not significant.

Yes, as Lamprecht tells us, the washrooms and morgues which were re-baptised at Nuremberg as human gas chambers would surely have been deloused once or twice with Zyklon. And possibly, the AHGCs were thus treated a little more than the other ‘control sample’ rooms. But there is no way that can be confused with the huge elevation in residual cyanide in chambers exposed repeatedly to the gas over years.
……………………..
Lamprecht: ‘I want to know how it (the ‘Krema’) has more cyanide residue than the barracks if it has only been deloused once’ A fair question, and I guess it would come down to comparing the walls, eg certain paints would seal the wall and prevent gas absorption. I would expect morgues and washrooms to need more delousing than barracks.

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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby trevor » 7 years 10 months ago (Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:27 am)

The Institute of Forensic Research in Krakow Poland performed their own analysis concerning cyanide in the gas chambers in Auschwitz in September 1990. Their results confirmed the chemical part of the Leuchter report.


The analysis by IFRC Markiewicz et al performed in 1990:

INSTITUTE OF FORENSIC RESEARCH
In the name of Prof. Dr. Jan Sehn, Krakow
Division of Forensic Toxicology
Krakow, 24 Sept. 1990
Westerplatte 9 / Code 31-033



“Five samples were also taken from the ruins of the gas chamber of crematory [building] 2 in Birkenau, as well as one sample each from the ruins of crematory [building] 5 and the wall of crematory [building] 1 in Auschwitz [main camp]. No samples were taken from the ruins of crematory [building] 4, because the 30-40 centimeter high wall structure there was reconstructed after the war.”


None of the samples taken from the gas chambers contained cyanid, except for the sample 15 :

“Of the samples taken from crematories 1, 2, 3, and 5, only sample number 15 showed almost undetectably small traces of cyanide compounds”


The did found cyanide in the delousing chambers.

The study of IFRC from 1990 is here: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p207_Staff.html



Four years later they performed another analysis:

The study by IFRC Markiewicz et al. performed in 1994 says:

“Iron Blue (Prussian Blue) is extraordinarily stable in acids and is not destroyed by the influences of weathering, even over decades (chapter 6.6.).”

However, in both of their studies they tested their samples with analytical methods that were unable to detect stable iron cyanide compounds.

SUMMARY:

IFRC Markiewicz et al.from 1990
Cyanide WITHOUT iron cyanide in mg CN-/kg
delousing chambers : 0.09 to 1.47
gas chambers: one sample contained 0.06 (the other samples did not contain traceable levels)



IFRC Markiewicz et al.from 1994
Cyanide WITHOUT iron cyanide in mg CN-/kg
delousing chambers: 0-0.8
gas chambers': 0-0.6


Leuchter:
TOTAL CYANIDE in mg CN-/kg
delousing chambers: 1025
gas chambers': 0-8


Rudolf
TOTAL CYANIDE in mg CN-/kg
delousing chambers: 1,000-13,000
gas chambers': 0-7


Ball
TOTAL CYANIDE in mg CN-/kg
delousing chambers: 2,780-3,170
gas chambers': 0-1.2



And the main point in the Rudolf report was that the levels of total cyanide in the gas chambers and the levels of total cyanide in the control (taken from the inmate barracks) were very similar.

“Quantities of cyanide on the order of magnitude of those found by Leuchter in the alleged 'gas chambers' can apparently also be found in the wall material of the inmate barracks.”


http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/8.html#ftn499
Last edited by trevor on Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:47 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby nathan » 7 years 10 months ago (Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:16 am)

SUMMARY

IFRC Markiewicz et al.from 1990
TOTAL CYANIDE – was not found in the gas chambers but was found in non-homicidal part of the camp.


I am ready to be corrected by an expert but I wonder whether the quantitative results tabulated in the 1990 study do show “total” cyanide. They were based on “a curve calculated with potassium cyanide” which I suspect, perhaps mistakenly, was already a test which would exclude Prussian Blue. On this test, seven out of the ten disinfestation samples show samples ranging from 9 to 147 micrograms/100 grams host material.

If these numbers had included prussian blue I cannot understand the point in subjecting the seven tabulated and quantified “positive” samples to a further infra-red test which showing positive again for five out of the seven. The presence of Prussian Blue in these five samples is mentioned as a sort of curiosity. These five results are not quantified. One can speculate why. Any numbers might have been huge.

As it is, even the test results preceding infra-red analysis give strikingly different quantitative results between the ten disinfestation samples and the ten homicide samples, of which only one tested positive at an “almost undetectable level” of six micrograms/100 grams. A microgram is a millionth of a gram. That may be why these results were leaked to jubilant revisionists and may be why the Poles had to go back and do better. Using a partial test (again, if I am right) they came back in 1994 with results that showed parity.

From the 1990 study linked above:
Of the ten samples taken from the rooms of Block 3, where Zyklon B disinfection was carried out, traces of hydrocyanic acid compounds were found in seven of the samples in a concentration of nine to 147 micrograms per 100 grams of the sample material, calculated on the basis of the curve calibrated with potassium cyanide.

Each sample that showed a positive result was then subjected to infrared spectrophotometric analysis in a Digilab company model F TS 15 B spectrophotometer. In five samples analyzed with this technique, the presence of cyanide was detected corresponding to spectral bands with frequencies of 2000 to 2200 cm. [1]
In each of the five "positive" tested plaster samples,a more or less distinct blue deposit could be detected. This kind of deposit, which is known as Prussian blue, may result from the interaction of cyanide with iron-based compounds.

Of the [ten] samples taken from crematories 1, 2, 3, and 5, only sample number 15 showed almost indetectably small traces of cyanide compounds (6 micrograms per 100 grams of wall plaster). This sample was taken from a column that stands in the middle of the gas chamber of crematory [building] 2 in Birkenau.


However it is possible for all I know that the potassium test was a test for total cyanide and perhaps the samples came from barracks which had only been weakly fumigated. A change of technique in the later investigation would be clearly be a very dishonest move. Either way, they have something to answer for.

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Re: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

Postby trevor » 7 years 10 months ago (Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:34 pm)

You are right Nathan. They did not measure the total cyanide already in their first study from 1990. I corrected it. thank you.

Germar Rudolf:
"In fact, the exclusion of Prussian blue from analytical detection must result in much lower cyanide traces for the delousing chambers, as non-iron cyanide compounds are not very stable and would therefore hardly be present after fifty years. The same is true for every room ever exposed to hydrogen cyanide. In fact, values close to the detection level must be expected. These are generally so unreliable that a proper interpretation is close to impossible. It can therefore be expected that the analysis of samples tested with such a method would deliver similar results for nearly every sampling of material that is many years old. Such an analysis would make it practically impossible to distinguish between rooms massively exposed to hydrogen cyanide and those which were not: all would have a cyanide residue of close to zero.
I believe that is exactly what the researchers from the Jan Sehn Institute wanted to achieve: values for both the delousing chambers and the alleged homicidal “gas chambers” with similar levels of cyanide residues"


In a subsequent correspondence with the Krakow researchers, I asked for a scientific explanation of their method of analysis. I gave them irrefutable proof that Prussian blue can be formed in walls exposed to hydrogen cyanide gas, citing a recent case documented in expert literature. [see note] The authors of the Krakow report were unable to give a scientific reason for their deliberate failure to test for Prussian blue and refused to admit that they had made a mistake. [see note]

Finally, in their article as well as in a letter to me, the Krakow researchers stated that the purpose of their paper was to refute the “Holocaust deniers” and to prevent the whitewashing of Hitler and National Socialism. In other words, their purpose was not the search for truth, but to serve a political end."


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