Why Churchill does not mention Holocaust in 6 WW2 books

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
theTRUTH
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:50 pm

Why Churchill does not mention Holocaust in 6 WW2 books

Postby theTRUTH » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:25 pm)

In the last of Churchill's 6-volume set "The Second World War", written from 1948 to '52, entitled "Triumph and Tragedy" (April, '44 to May, '45), there is absolutely no reference to mass murders of Jews or anyone else in German concentration camps, and Jews are only discussed as an organized fighting force and the fact they were mistreated in Hungary.

Churchill described what occurred from memory and access to records and correspondence while separating the war-time facts from propaganda lies. While writing, he was not influenced by media-generated Holocaust stories, which didn't start being pumped out until 1958. Churchill obviously believed the Jewish experience was a small portion of the entire Allied WW2 effort, and they didn't deserve more space in his books. However if he had known mass-murders were occurring the any German-run camps one would think this would have been included in even a few words, but there are none.
"Israel must invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the methods of provocation..." Moshe Sharett, Israeli's Foreign Minister ('48-'54), & Prime Minister ('54-'56).

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10146
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:59 pm)

Nor did DeGaulle mention the absurdities in his memoirs.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

aegishjalmur

Postby aegishjalmur » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:00 pm)

nor did Roosevelt...

Laurentz Dahl
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:00 am
Location: Somewhere in Europe

Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:16 am)

And interestingly, the "Holocaust" and the gas chambers are conspiciously absent in the personal dossier Stalin ordered on Hitler, published as The Hitler Book: The Secret Dossier Prepared for Stalin from the Interrogations of Hitler's Personal Aides by Henrik Eberle, Matthias Uhl, and Giles MacDonogh.

Henry
Member
Member
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:23 pm

Postby Henry » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:51 pm)

Roosevelt could not have written memoirs about the war. He died a few weeks before it ended.

Laurentz Dahl
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:00 am
Location: Somewhere in Europe

Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:26 pm)

Henry wrote:Roosevelt could not have written memoirs about the war. He died a few weeks before it ended.


Yes, I think the one meant was Eisenhower.

Gertrud
Member
Member
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: Hamburg

Postby Gertrud » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:29 pm)

It's worth remembering that Churchill's literary agent was a Hungarian Jew.

theTRUTH
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:50 pm

Postby theTRUTH » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:38 pm)

From 1946 to '58, Allied commanders, with access to confidential military reports and correspondence, didn't mention mass-murders of inmates in German-operated camps:

(1) Winston Churchill, England's Prime Minister, in his 6 volume detailed memoir,

(2) Dwight Eisenhower, Supreme Allied European Commander, in writings and memoirs,

(3) Joseph Stalin, Soviet Dictator, in the book The Secret Dossier Prepared for Stalin from the Interrogations of Hitlers Personal Staff, and

(4) General DeGaulle, France's pre-war leader, who returned to lead in 1945.
"Israel must invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the methods of provocation..." Moshe Sharett, Israeli's Foreign Minister ('48-'54), & Prime Minister ('54-'56).

User avatar
Haldan
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:56 pm
Location: <secret>
Contact:

Postby Haldan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:45 pm)

Gertrud wrote:It's worth remembering that Churchill's literary agent was a Hungarian Jew.


That is interesting seeing that in his six volume book on WWII there is a meager mention of Hungarian Jews being "scientifically exterminated" or something to that effect, I can't remember precisely. I can not even remember the exact page but I believe it is around the fivehundred mark or a couple of pages beyond that. I would have to look that up.

-haldan
<?php if ($Holocaust == false ) {deny_repeatedly(); } else { investigate(); } ?>
Homage to Catalin Haldan

User avatar
Haldan
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:56 pm
Location: <secret>
Contact:

Postby Haldan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:52 pm)

Here is the quote:

Volume 6, Triumph and Tragedy, P 597, 1954 edition.

There is no doubt that this (persecution of the jews in Hungary and their expulsion from enemy territory) is probably the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world, and it has been done by scientific machinery by normally civilised men in the name of a great state and one of the leading races of europe. It is quite clear that all concerned in this crime may fall into our hands, including the people who only obeyed orders by carrying out butcheries, should be put to death after their association with the murders has been proved.

I have NOT verified this. This information was passed on to me by a person I do not know.

-haldan
<?php if ($Holocaust == false ) {deny_repeatedly(); } else { investigate(); } ?>
Homage to Catalin Haldan

User avatar
Haldan
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:56 pm
Location: <secret>
Contact:

Postby Haldan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:00 pm)

Anyhow, if the quote is genuine, it is the only mention he makes about the fate of the Jews. Strange wouldn't you think seeing as it was claimed the Germans tried to exterminate every Jew they could get their hands on, in a systematic state planned way - which has never been defined, unless one means the expulsion of the Jews from Europe, but that isn't extermination in a practical and physical sense.

The quote, if genuine, only touches on the Hungarian Jews too. I asked the person who sent the details and it is in connection only to Hungarian Jews. Very odd.

-haldan
<?php if ($Holocaust == false ) {deny_repeatedly(); } else { investigate(); } ?>
Homage to Catalin Haldan

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 10146
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:22 pm)

Scientific machinery? Is that the steam, chlorine, or vacuum chambers that the propagandists tried initially?

Here's what Faurisson says:

http://www.vho.org/aaargh/engl/FaurisArch/RF981020.html

Worse than Le Pen,
the Revisionists Churchill, Eisenhower, and de Gaulle

Robert Faurisson

20 October 1998

In my article "The Detail", of 20 December 1997, I wrote that Eisenhower, Churchill, and de Gaulle had not breathed a single word, in their extensive war memoirs, of the Nazi gas chambers. Put another way, in a mass of 7,061 pages published from 1948 to 1959 (that is to say, well after the 1939-45 conflict) these three wartime leaders, American, British, and French, had dealt with said gas chambers by ignoring them plainly and simply. Their silence can only have been deliberate.

Under attack from all sides for his recidivism on "the detail", Jean Marie Le Pen has recently retorted with this statement of three sentences which has appeared in the German weekly Der Spiegel (issue no. 42, 12 October 1998, p. 163). An English translation follows:

« Ich habe die Existenz der Gaskammern nie geleugnet oder verharmlost. Aber schriebe man die Geschichte des Zweiten Weltkriegs auf tausend Seiten nieder, kämen den Gaskammern allenfalls ein paar Zeilen zu. Churchill, Eisenhower und de Gaulle haben sie in ihren Kriegserinnerungen mit keinem Wort erwähnt. »

"I have never denied or minimised the existence of the gas chambers. But when someone writes a thousand-page history of the Second World War, the gas chambers get, at the very most, a few lines. In their war memoirs Churchill, Eisenhower, and de Gaulle did not use one word to bring them up."

This indirect translation comes through the accurate French version (apparently made by Agence France Press) which was duly published in newspapers throughout the country. Even the provincial daily La Montagne (of Clermont-Ferrand, in the Auvergne) ran the three sentences. The cosmopolitan and oblique Le Monde, however, reproduced the statement by amputating its most substantial, its newest, and (as regards the comfort of the "right-thinking", as well as the greater public's way of thinking) most disturbing part; it left out the end (in cauda gravissimum), where Jean Marie Le Pen pointed out that neither Churchill, Eisenhower, nor de Gaulle had devoted even a single word to what, for his part, he called a detail.

Why this silence?

J. M. Le Pen could place his opponents in the most embarrassing position if he disclosed just why Churchill, Eisenhower, de Gaulle, and a good number of other leaders amongst the Allies, including the Soviets and the Czechs, throughout their lives refrained from mentioning, either in speaking or in writing, the Nazi gas chambers (or the genocide of the Jews).

The reason for this lack of any mention is that, after investigation, the Allies reckoned, from 1943 onwards, that there existed no satisfactory evidence to substantiate public claims that execution gas chambers did indeed exist: "There is insufficient evidence to justify the statement regarding execution in gas chambers (1)".

Talk of gas chambers in Poland had been heard for the first time towards the end of 1941. In 1942 and '43, the word had caught on somewhat, notably in Polish and Jewish circles in London. The British government thus decided to denounce the horror of these chemical slaughterhouses in a joint declaration with the Americans. Already on 17 December 1942, the Allies had issued a joint statement on "Nazi atrocities". On that day, Anthony Eden in the House of Commons and Lord Simon in the Upper House read a declaration made in the name of twelve Allied governments concerning the crimes being committed by the Germans against the Jews. In it was denounced the Germans' intention to exterminate the Jews of Europe. The words "exterminate" and "cold-blooded extermination" assuredly figured in the text, but in the context of the Jews' "being transported in conditions of appalling horror and brutality" and, amongst the able-bodied, by a slow working to death. For the infirm, this deportation was followed by death from exposure, starvation, or even by outright deliberate slaughter in "mass executions". The innocent victims of these "bloody cruelties" numbered, according to the statement, in the "many hundreds of thousands", but there was no question at all of any gas chambers' or chemical slaughterhouses' being used within the framework of "this bestial policy of cold-blooded extermination", to be designated later on as "genocide".

Eight months afterwards, in August 1943, the British and the Americans were putting together a new declaration and, this time, mentioning the killings in gas chambers. Here is an extract from this draft of their joint declaration:

"[In Poland] some children are killed on the spot, others are separated from their parents and either sent to Germany to be brought up as Germans or sold to German settlers or despatched with the women and old men to concentration camps, where they are now being systematically put to death in gas chambers."

The emphasis on that last relative clause is mine. Three days after this draft release of 27 August 1943, the US government, at the instigation of the British, decided to "eliminate" (their word) the clause. The reason: there lacked sufficient evidence of these killings in gas chambers.

Until the war's end both governments maintained that position, and that decision.

To take just one example, general Eisenhower, as late as April 1945 during the Allied take-over of the German camps, avoided any reference to these Nazi gas chambers in the speeches which he gave there. Even in his most forceful declarations (one of which is in part engraved in stone at the entrance of the Washington Holocaust Memorial Museum) he steadily observed an utter silence on the subject.

In numerous writings on the Shoah and in some "Holocaust museums", a certain blame is put on Roosevelt, Churchill, Stalin, Pope Pius XII, and the International Committee of the Red Cross for the stubborn silence on the Nazi gas chambers (and the genocide of the Jews) that they all observed during the war. They are criticised for having received accounts of the matter with disbelief, or, as was the case with the Red Cross, for having had an investigator who, on the spot at Auschwitz, did not even hear talk of those gas chambers. A similar charge of revisionism could be made still more surely against the great men who, after 1945, in drafting, for instance, their war memoirs, failed to mention those gas chambers and that genocide, accounts of which were nonetheless being published in abundance (2). Those great men thus acted implicitly as revisionists.

Such was the case, in France, of general de Gaulle, whereas J. M. Le Pen, for his part, has on several occasions explicitly affirmed the existence of the Nazi gas chambers. From this point of view, for Le Pen's accusers, de Gaulle should necessarily be worse than Le Pen. One can argue that de Gaulle was a revisionist (3), just as one may argue that Churchill, Eisenhower, and quite a few others were; but it must be acknowledged that Le Pen is not.

*******

Notes

(1) Foreign Relations of the United States / Diplomatic Papers 1943, US Government Printing Office, Washington, 1963, vol. I, pp. 416-417 ; for the effective elimination of the mention of the gas chambers in the British-American communiqué, see "US and Britain Warn Nazi Killers", The New York Times, 30 August 1943, p. 3.

(2) The reader may recall, apart from these accounts, the assertions of the Judges at Nuremberg and the works of such historians as Léon Poliakov (1951) and Gerald Reitlinger (1953), to say nothing of the publications of Eugen Kogon, David Rousset, Henri Michel, or Olga Wormser-Migot: the gas chambers were everywhere!

(3) On this point one may refer to an interesting analysis by Jean-Marie Boisdefeu, "De Gaulle et le génocide des juifs. Le général était-il révisionniste ?" ("De Gaulle and the Genocide of the Jews. Was the General a Revisionist?"), Akribeia (45/3, Route de Vourles, 69230 ST GENIS LAVAL, France), October 1998, pp. 241-245.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The above text is a translation of a slightly modified version of the article which appeared in the French weekly National Hebdo (5 - 11 November 1998 issue, p. 17) under the title "Pires que Le Pen : Churchill, Eisenhower et De Gaulle". Reproduced in Ecrits révisionnistes, IV, 1999, p. 1889-1892.
First displayed on aaargh: 17 April 2001.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Laurentz Dahl
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:00 am
Location: Somewhere in Europe

Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:10 pm)

Haldan wrote:Here is the quote:

Volume 6, Triumph and Tragedy, P 597, 1954 edition.

There is no doubt that this (persecution of the jews in Hungary and their expulsion from enemy territory) is probably the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world, and it has been done by scientific machinery by normally civilised men in the name of a great state and one of the leading races of europe. It is quite clear that all concerned in this crime may fall into our hands, including the people who only obeyed orders by carrying out butcheries, should be put to death after their association with the murders has been proved.

I have NOT verified this. This information was passed on to me by a person I do not know.

-haldan


I don't have the book with me right now, but if I recall correctly the passage quoted above is actually contained in a letter that was included in the appendices to vol.6.

I will go check if I can find the book at my local research library right away and see if I remember it correctly.

Laurentz Dahl
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:00 am
Location: Somewhere in Europe

Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:17 am)

I found volume 6 (Houghton Mifflin 1953, 1981 reprint) at the library, and as I remembered it, the passage is from the appendices, more exactly Appendix C which contains personal minutes and telegrams from Churchill to his ministers and secretaries.

The letter on p.597 reads in full (the text within brackets is in original):

Prime minister to Foreign Secretary 11 July 44

There is no doubt that this [persecution of Jews in Hungary and their expulsion from enemy territory] is probably the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world, and it has been done by scientific machinery by nominally civilized men in the name of a great State and one of the leading races of Europe. It is quite clear that all concerned in this crime who may fall into our hands, including the people who only obeyed orders by carrying out the butcheries, should be put to death after their association with the murders has been proved.
I cannot therefore feel that this is the kind of ordinary case which is put through the Protecting Power, as for instance, the lack of feeding or sanitary conditions in some particular prisoner's camp. There should therefore, in my opinion, be no negotiations of any kind on this subject. Declarations should be made in public, so that everyone connected with it will be hunted down and put to death.


Note that reference curiously is only to the Hungarian Jews. How come the murder of 2 million Polish Jews was not noticed?

Also, if this was in Churchill's view "the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world", how come it is only ever touched upon in this letter/pm, and not once in Churchill's exhaustive war narrative?

One may also ask, what was the relation of the Foreign Secretary to the Jews?

It would of course be of much help to have access to the full correspondence from both sides. The Foreign Secretary obviously touched upon the alleged extermination in previous communication.

I checked the index to vol.VI, and there are no references to Auschwitz, no references to Buchenwald, nor Dachau, nor Belsen - even though the Allied liberations of the camps took place during the same period as treated on the 500+ pages of vol.VI. There are only 4 (four) references to Jews in Triumph and Tragedy, and this is the only one which mentions any kind of extermination or murder. All the four references are to letters/telegrams/pm:s found in Appendix C!

Here are the texts of the other three passages relating to Jews:

p.597 (following directly on the pm quoted above):

Prime minister to Secretary of State of War 12 July 1944

I am anxious to reply promptly to Dr. Weizmann's request for the formation of a Jewish fighting force put forward in his letter of July 4, of which you have been given a copy. I understand that you wish to have the views of Generals Wilson and Paget before submitting to the Cabinet a scheme for the formation of a Jewish brigade force. As this matter has now been under consideration for some time I should be glad if you would arrange for a report setting out your proposals to be submitted to the Cabinet early next week.


p.598

Prime minister to Foreign Secretary 14 July 44

ESCAPE OF JEWS FROM GREECE

This requires careful handling. It is quite possible that rich Jews will pay large sums of money to escape being murdered by the Huns. It is tiresome that this money should get into the hands of E.L.A.S., but why on earth we should go and argue with the United States about it I cannot conceive. We should take a great responsibility if we prevented the escape of Jews. I know it is the modern view that all rich people should be put to death wherever found, but it is a pity that we should take up that attitude at the present time. After all, they have no doubt paid for their liberation so high that in future they will only be poor Jews, and therefore have the ordinary rights of human beings.


p.603:

Prime minister to Foreign Secretary 6 Aug 44

This seems to be a rather doubtful business [the case of the Hungarian Jews]. These unhappy families, mainly women and children, have purchased their lives with probably nine-tenths of their wealth. I should not like England to seem to be wanting to hunt them down. By all means tell the Russians anything that is necessary, but please do not let us prevent them from escaping.
I cannot see how any suspicion of peace negotiations could be fixed on this miserable affair.


That is how much space Churchill spent on the Jews and "the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world" in his 6 volume work on World War II. A detail indeed, and it does not even mention any methods of murder!

Note that in the three letters quoted above, it is only in the two addressed to the Foreign Secretary that there is any hint to the Jews being put to death ("escape being murdered", "purchased their lives").

Anthony Eden was Foreign Secretary at the time in question. After the war, Eden served as Prime minister from 1955 to 1957. He led the UK into the disastrous "Suez Crisis" in which UK ganged up with France and Israel against Nasser's Egypt. The opinions of what Eden privately though of Jews and Israel seems to be somewhat divided. In December 1942 he publicly condemned Germany's "beastial policy" against the Jews. Irving on the other hand seems to think that Eden was something of a latent anti-Semite and cites from Eden's diaries.

I checked the foreword etc. but could not find out whether the appendices were of Churchill's own making, or if not, who edited them.

By the way I checked Eisenhower's Crusade in Europe in passing and found no references to Auschwitz, Dachau, Belsen or Buchenwald. There was three references to Jews in the index, none of them relating to any alleged extermination.

Henry
Member
Member
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:23 pm

Postby Henry » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:25 am)

I likewise checked the Churchill and Eisenhower books, but I've not been able to find the books by Stalin or de Gaulle. Does anyone know the titles and whether they've been published in English?


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests