Böch/Boch/Bock statements - How things change!

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:47 pm)

Richard Perle wrote:If anyone wants to demolish Böck, all they need do is open Rudolf's Lectures on the Holocaust and search for his name. Rudolf spent quite a bit of time on this character.

I gave a link to Rudolf above, when I quoted his translation of Böck's statement. Rudolf is not convincing at all.
Böck talking about a blue haze is a clear indication that he is using his imagination. Why would someone mention something like that if he wasn't only relying on his imagination rather than real memory?

Böck said:
... obwohl dieser blaue Dunst noch über den Leichen schwebte, von dem ich annahm, da es sich um Gas handelte.

[A kommando of prisoners went in], although this blue haze still drifted over the bodies, of which I assumed that it was gas.
Clearly, Böck's assumption was wrong. It was probably just a normal humid haze. I think Böck saw this in the evening, maybe in the light of strong lamps. Others who saw this, did not make the same assumption, and never mentioned it.
For example, in Böck's story we have round tin lids on the roof.
No, they are in the wall. Böck says that brown dust came from an opening in the wall.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:10 pm)

I request that someone with Rudolf's Lectures... find the information on Bock, and especially his relationship with Rogner, inmate and member of the communist underground. I would do it but PDFs crash my PC at the moment.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:18 pm)

Not quite, Vallon, let's go back:
Bock said:
‘The new arrivals are taken to the undressing room where they had to get undressed.
Once they were undressed, they were then put into the gas chamber, and the door slammed shut, they did this three times until the room was full.’ He goes on ‘Then an SS man runs out to the ambulance and gets a tin of gas, he then climbs up a ladder onto the roof and opens a little Iron door. Once the Iron door is open, he opens the can of gas and shakes the tin until it is empty; the little Iron door is then shut.’
‘Then a fearful screaming started, after about ten minutes it went quiet. They then opened the door and a blue haze came flooding out the room.’ He then goes on, ‘When the doors were opened, and we looked in, all the bodies were tangled and piled up in a pyramid. Then the ‘prisoner squad’ walks through the blue haze and starts to pull the pyramid apart.’ He continues, ‘After the bodies were cleared the one’s that had been lagging behind were put into the room, everywhere was searched and any children found hiding were thrown into the room on top of everyone’s heads. Then the doors were slammed shut, to start the next gassing.’

"Then a fearful screaming started, after about ten minutes it went quiet."
Let's ignore Vallon's strained 'blue haze' spin job ... humidity and bright lights at night, for the moment.
Again, the tale is impossible as the Zyklon-B would take at least 2 hours to reach necessary levels high enough for the entire 'gas chamber'. Wouldn't happen in TEN MINUTES.
And the Zyklon-B would still be outgassing when the 'door was opened', thereby creating an immense hazard for anyone in the area. Oops.

And then where did the Germans put 2,000 dead Jews after the alleged 'gassing'?
Taken to the crematorium quickly to make room for the next batch that is supposedly naively waiting their turn to die is the general storyline .... even though Vallon says the 'gas chamber' doors were opened, and corpses were greeted with "strong lamps" .... which ofcourse would clue in all those supposedly waiting to be gassed. Oops.

And then the elevator alleged to have moved these 2,000 Jews to the crematorium above was the size of a veritable postage stamp, which means any body removal to crematoriums would take hour after hour, which throws off the entire timeframe alleged in the dumb story. Oops.

We could also talk about the impossible cremation times that are alleged and necessary for the storyline to work, but that could be called 'piling on'.

Vallon, stop dodging points I made much earlier in this thread.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:29 pm)

Richard Perle, have a look at this.
- Hannover
From the Records of the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial, Part 4

4. Böck and Rögner: Two False Witnesses

Parts of Richard Böck's testimony, written down during the investigations for the Auschwitz trial, are sometimes quoted by revisionists and used as evidence of the lack of credibility of this and other similar testimonies.[5] The statements quoted stem from an interrogation of Nov. 2, 1960. Böck had, however, already been interrogated much earlier: on February 5, 1959.

Böck was a driver in the car pool of the Auschwitz camp, where his primary duty was to organize the transport of supplies for the camp.[6] Both the style and the content of his testimony clearly indicate that he identified much more with the former inmates of the camp than with his former SS comrades - at least during the time of his interrogations. For example, he claims that he smuggled mail in and out of the camp over an extended period of time (pp. 447, 461, 463). Although an investigation by the political department (Gestapo) was initiated as a result, there were no consequences for Böck (pp. 449-451). And even though he had been arrested for a short period of time in the context of those investigations, he claims to have never heard anything about the "Boger swing" (p. 450). His comical descriptions of his alleged resistance activities are a clear indication that his hero stories are either not true or that the Gestapo in Auschwitz was utterly harmless.

Due to his intensive contacts with the inmates, Böck also had contact with inmate Adolf Rögner, who, according to Böck, was a "Kapo" in Auschwitz and a member of the so-called camp underground, which even owned its own radio transmitter (p. 446). It is thus quite possible that Rögner belonged to that circle of inmates described by Bruno Baum as being proud to have put into circulation the Auschwitz propaganda, which is now spreading all over the world.[7] As a member of an "Inmate Investigative Commission," Rögner also managed to liberate Böck from Allied post-war incarceration by organizing several affidavits of former inmates who testified on behalf of Böck (pp. 443, 459-465). During his second interrogation, Böck mentions further that Rögner was employed in the electrical department of the car pool (p. 6879). In other words: Böck and Rögner were obviously friends. This is also the only explanation for why Böck repeatedly mentions Rögner in his testimony without having any reason to do so.

The first three installments of this series reported in detail about the perjured liar and professional denunciator Rögner.[8] Böck's relationship with Rögner raises the suspicion that something other than dedication to the truth was hiding behind Böck's eagerness to testify, as was the case with Rögner. I therefore will analyze Böck's statements in more detail.

During his first interrogation, Böck claimed that he had witnessed a gassing "once myself. That must have been in summer of 1943" (p. 453). During his second interrogation, this gassing suddenly took place "in the winter of 1942/43" (p. 6881). Even though it was "strictly prohibited" for him as an unauthorized person, he easily managed to get to the gas chamber by getting a ride in the ambulance car (ibidem). Similar to this is another statement in his first interrogation, where he secretly witnesses an execution in a gravel pit by simply "following" the column of the executee and his SS guards "in a few meters distance" (p. 451). According to Böck, the command for the execution of inmates was: "Ready, set, go!" (p. 452).

There are three options: a) the gassings/executions were not secret (that is, Böck is lying in this regard); b) the SS consisted of dim-witted morons who did not follow the most primitive security measures and did not even notice it when somebody followed them only a few meters away into a gravel pit; or c) Böck is lying about these events. Since an execution is not a 100 meter sprint - execution commands are something like "Ready, aim, fire!" - the reader can figure out by himself which case is most likely given regarding Böck.

Another of Böck's allegations fits perfectly into this picture: He claims that one day he was ordered to come with a truck-load of sandwiches to the railroad ramp at Birkenau, where a selection of incoming inmates was taking place, but he eventually had to return again with all of his sandwiches (p. 6884). According to Böck, the reason for this was:

"Because they wanted to be prepared if a commission would come from Switzerland to observe the 'resettlement of the Jews'." (p. 6883)

Böck speculates that those sandwiches were meant to make the commission of the International Red Cross believe that the inmates were treated well. For the same reason, the van used to transport Zyklon B to the gas chamber had allegedly been camouflaged with a Red Cross symbol (ibidem). As if the mighty SS was not in control of whether or not a delegation of the Red Cross would enter the camp, and as if anybody would have been fooled by a few sandwiches into ignoring the allegedly atrocious general conditions in the camp!

On pages 6882f., we find those statements that have been frequently quoted and interpreted as indications that this witness makes false claims:

"Finally, an SS man came, I believe it was a Rottenführer, to our ambulance and got out a gas canister. With this gas canister he then went to a ladder, which stood at the right side of this building, seen from the gate. At the same time, I noticed that he had a gas mask on while climbing the ladder. After he had reached the end of the ladder, he opened the circular tin lid and shook the contents of the canister into the opening. I clearly heard the rattling of the canister against the wall, as he hit it while shaking it out. Simultaneously I saw a brown dust rise through the wall opening. When he had closed the little door again, an indescribable crying began in the chamber. I simply cannot describe how these humans cried. That lasted approximately 8-10 minutes, and then all was silent. A short time afterwards, the door was opened by inmates and one could see a bluish cloud floating over a gigantic pile of corpses." (p. 6882)

"At any rate, I was surprised that the inmate commando which was assigned to remove the bodies, entered the chamber without gas masks, although this blue vapor floated over the corpses, from which I assumed that it was a gas." (S. 6883)

Since Zyklon B does not produce a brown dust when poured out of its cans, and hydrogen cyanide gas is colorless, and the inmate commando cannot have been immune against the same poison gas that killed the victims within a few minutes just a few moments earlier, it is obvious that Böck cannot have seen what he claims to have seen.

But this is not yet all. In the fall of 1941, Böck claims to have accidentally witnessed, how 60 prisoners were gassed in the crematorium I, located in the Auschwitz main camp:

"In the fall of 1941, I observed one evening after my shift at the car pool was over how Ustuf. [SS Untersturmführer] G r a b n e r stopped in front of crematorium a, main camp, with some 60 male Jews, coming from the direction of the train station Auschwitz. Then he drove all Jews into the crematorium by ordering them to go in there. After all Jews had entered, I saw how another SS man stepped onto the crematorium and opened some kind of a shutter. At the same time I heard terrible screams, but this lasted only a short while. Then it was silent." (p. 6886)

This statement is problematic for several reasons:

According to official historiography, there was only one gassing during the fall of 1941, and it allegedly took place in the basement of camp building no. 11 with several hundred Russian POWs as victims.[9] It is the general belief that the mortuary of the old crematorium of the main camp has been redesigned for use as a 'gas chamber' in 1942, hence could not have been used for gassings in late 1941.

The alleged gas chamber of the old crematorium was a relatively large mortuary by its design. According to established historiography, several hundred victims were murdered in it, not just 60.

Böck himself admits that the car pool at Auschwitz, where he worked day in day out for several years, was located just on the other side of the road, near the old crematorium - Böck even added a hand drawn map to this effect to the protocol of his interrogation (p. 6887, map p. 458). How is it that he neither witnessed nor even heard anything about the mass gassings, which allegedly took place in that crematorium during the years 1942-1943 according to orthodox historiography?

Böck tries to balance his general lack of knowledge about what was going on on the other side of the road by claiming that he made the following observation:

"In any case, during the entire time of my presence in Auschwitz I could observe that inmate corpses were cremated in the old crematorium. This decreased somewhat only toward the end of 1944. I could see every day how the flames shot two meters high out of the chimney. It also smelled intensively like burned flesh."

The following comments have to be made about these claims:

The old crematorium in the main camp was taken out of operation after the new crematoria in Birkenau went into operation in spring 1943. In early 1944, the old crematorium was converted into an air raid shelter. Thus, Böck cannot possibly have witnessed cremations at the main camp until the end of 1944.

For technical reasons, no flames can come shooting out of a crematorium chimney. Either Böck lied, or he hallucinated, or he talked himself into believing things he heard from elsewhere.

Coke-fired crematorium chimneys might emit the smell of burning coke, but certainly not the smell of burning flesh.

A repetitive theme is the claim that SS men participated at selections for mass gassings because they were rewarded with alloweance of schnapps (p. 393, Böck, p. 6884). Additional allowances of food and liquor for difficult tasks may actually have existed, but the allegation that the SS was an accumulation of drunkards raises the suspicion that the source for such a cliché are Polish propagandists and vodka lovers, projecting from themselves onto others.

I want to mention only as an aside that Böck shifts the construction of the Birkenauer railway ramp to the year 1943 (p. 6880) - it was constructed in 1944. But here he might for once have just erred. The remainder of Böck's Statements are basically nothing else but - well, I cannot hold it back, so please forgive me - B.S. J
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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:26 pm)

PLAYWRIGHT wrote:But since the series came out, he's dropped off the face of the earth.

Well, they use these men and these "stories" like toilet-paper. Once they are done with them they flush. If the stories are ripe the men could be featured in one of their "Toilet Paper Museums" [ie. Hoaxco$t Museums].

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:12 pm)

That's the Böck/Rögner information I was after. Excellent. Böck's friendship with Rögner should raise alarm bells as Rögner would appear to be perhaps the biggest liar of all. Even the prosecution in post-war trials dismissed him as “vindictive psychopath” and a “self-contradicting, pathological professional criminal.”

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:10 pm)

The interrogation of Böck in the DVD "Der Auschwitz Prozess" is rather lengthy, about 150 pages, mostly on the 73rd main trial day. I will go through it to see how it compares with Rudolf's conclusions.
Since tje protocol is so long and in German I think that it may not be worth to put it on the German forum. But I could, it just takes me a few clicks.

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:40 am)

Bergmann wrote:Since tje protocol is so long and in German I think that it may not be worth to put it on the German forum. But I could, it just takes me a few clicks.

It's already done.
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:11 am)

Vallon gives a personal opinion to advance Boch's words as credibile:
Clearly, Böck's assumption was wrong. It was probably just a normal humid haze. I think Böck saw this in the evening, maybe in the light of strong lamps. Others who saw this, did not make the same assumption, and never mentioned it.

I'm trying to recall if I have ever seen in my whole life where I saw a blue haze due to a 'normal' humid haze. Did others see it and didn't say anything as so absolutely stated above? Seems like we may have some kind of ESP going on here.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:29 pm)

The reason he mentioned the Blue Haze is that the name for zyklon B, or HCN in the common population was "iron blue" or "Prussian Blue" and so Boch takes the initiative as to why that is. But it's called "blue" due to when it bonds

We're not talking about an obscure witness here. He is probably the biggest spokesperson of the holocaust there's ever been. That show was all over on t.v sets all over the world in the 1970's, and reruns of it lasted years. The series was translated into scores of languages. More people have seen this guy than Elie Wiesel. And much of what he's saying is the standard story, similar to how Hilberg describes it. If you grew up in the 1970's and owned a tv, you were familiar with "World At War."

And by the way, there's talk about how fast zyklon B acts and how that's related to temperature. The colder it is, the longer it takes. So we have Boch talking about how cold it is. He mentions seeing his breath! If I remember correctly. But then also mentions the fast acting zyklon B.

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Postby chammer » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:28 pm)

Malle wrote:
Vallon wrote:Does anybody of the other SS-man att the trial say that he was not an eyewitness?

Vallon, what are you trying to say? Do you believe that anyone from the SS should challenge his statements in the trial? Get your self a copy of the Auschwitz trial in Frankfurt and look for your self. You must be joking!

I understand your point. I was once 100% revisionist, and while seeing some SS coming forward decades after the war to back the usual charges, I was shaken. Not for Auschwitz, because there was too much proofs on the revisionist side in that case, but for other stories. And I have to admit that when it concern events where you have no technical impossibility (well, let say that some guy claim that he saw 500 Jews being shot), I will just say 'may be', I will not deny for denying. But I was so much lied on the remaining that the maximum I can conceede is "may be". But not when you have physical absurdities.
Well, to get back on the fact that I once started to have doubts, after a while, I discovered that I had the wrong approach concerning such post war testimonies. Many,many people will consider this as an automatic proof that all the charges are correct, because they say, why would a former SS man lie about this? It's not a Jew who wished to touch the compensation money after all.
Because once the war is over, an SS officer become a civilian again, and he can see where is his advantage. The state in which he believed is dead, and now he sees who is running. And some will be more greedy than others, some will be glad to be turncoats, some may even synthetise and mix real souvenirs with propaganda claims.
Can you imagine how this happen? Once a journalist decides to make a footage, he has the fool backing of the German government, so he can get the address of hundreds of former SS guards.
And then, wait a minute, if the journalist want desesperately to get at least one testimony, he can now offer money, especially for people who are vulnerable financiarly. It's a good investment with a lot of profit. Even if 98% or 99%refuse to speak and prefer to say 'don't bother me again with that story', it's a good investment if 1 or 2 accept.
So I realised that I didn't see the things with the correct perspective; because I think I wouldn't lie about events I didn't witness, it doesn't mean that everybody are like that; so why expecting more integrity from former SS than politicians, lawyers, car dealers, etc..?
I'm not saying that it doesn't count at all, but 3 such testimonies don't make a physical impossibility suddenly possible.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:30 pm)

Claude Lanzmann (I think I got the name right) who made the epic Shoah documentary from the 80s admitted paying the former SS man featured for his story.

Consider that any high-profile crime will have as many as dozens of people coming forward to confess, and consider that the holocaust is the most high-profile crime in history and it's small wonder that we get a handful of voluntary perpetrator confessions.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:01 pm)

Hi Richard:

You're probably referring to Franz Suchomel, which ties in with Chammer's comment
understand your point. I was once 100% revisionist, and while seeing some SS coming forward decades after the war to back the usual charges, I was shaken.

But if Claude Lanzmann spent 10 years on that movie, and his best former SS witness is Franz Suchomel, why does Franz Suchomel have so many problems in his story? Why couldn't Lanzmann find a decent testimony for his movie?

*Suchomel said in the movie that many women outside the gas chamber had a bowel movement because they were so scared. The feces were all there in a row.

•Suchomel discussed Belzec and said Christian Wirth would whip the next two highest level people in the camp, and they were SS men themselves. Christian Wirth would "whip" Joseph Oberhauser. That's what Suchomel said.

So from a long interview, edited down for Lanzmann's movie, we get ridiculousness right away. Probably, Suchomel put "poison pills" in his testimony so that people less gullible than Lanzmann would know his testimony was a joke.

If there are all these confession-giving SS out there years after the war, then why can't well-financed production groups like Lanzmann's or BBC's World At War find a normal testimony? I could understand if these shows featured 10 men and one of them had a strange testimony, but the person with the strange testimony is always the #1 featured person, like Boch.

It's like Hannover said, you peak behind the curtain, dig slightly under the surface and you find that it's all a fraud.

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Postby Maly Jacek » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:10 am)

Do you remember story of Oskar Gröning from recent BBC holo documentary series ? He could not even keep his own story straight :

to start with :

"I was standing at the ramp," he says, "and my task was to be part of the group supervising the luggage from an incoming transport" He watched while SS doctors first separated men from women and children, and then selected who was fit to work and who would be gassed immediately. "Sick people were lifted on to lorries. Red Cross lorries - they [the SS] always tried to create the impression that people had nothing to fear." Gröning estimates that 80-90% of those on the first transport he witnessed were selected to be murdered at once

and later on

Later, he witnessed the burning of bodies: "This comrade said, 'Come with me, I'll show you.' I was so shocked that I stood at a distance The fire was flickering up and the kapo [a prisoner in charge of work details] there told me afterwards details of the burning. And it was terribly disgusting - horrendous. He made fun of the fact that when the bodies started burning they obviously developed gases from the lungs and these bodies seemed to jump up, and the sex parts of the men suddenly became erect in a way that he found laughable."

finally :

"I would like you to believe me," he says."I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematorium. I saw the open fires I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened, because I was there."

Quotes from Guardian interview - page no longer available for online view

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:05 pm)

As far as I'm concerned the "blue haze" story is enough to impeach this guy's story. And since he says the haze was over the bodies in the gas chamber after the gassings the explanation of "humidity" seems a bit far-fetched. Strike three, you're out.

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