Babi Yar

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Babi Yar

Postby stuker » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:50 am)

Time for a new subject - let's take a look at Babi Yar. I'm sure this has been discussed before - but I believe I can shed new light on the events.

In late September 1941, Germans began rounding up patients from a local psychiatric hospital, and executed them by lining them up next to a ravine, and shooting them.

After Ukranian nationalists had blown up a couple of buildings in central Kiev, Germans rounded up Jews, and executed them in an apparent act of reprisal.

Post-war, news of the massacre was hushed up by Soviet authorities, embarassed at the mere concept of Ukranian freedom fighters. Until recently, the site was unmarked. In all, around 75,000 people were executed at Babi Yar, of whom 33,000 were Jewish. (The majority of victims were Ukranian nationals)

I visited Babi Yar recently, and would be keen to share my impressions of the site. I have also researched this subject extensively, and believe that proof of the massacre is total, given that anyone interested in willing to read at least one book, check out a few links, and possibly visit the site if they have the time.

The best book on Babi Yar is probably "Babi Yar" by Anatoli, a fiercely anti-Soviet book from a man who witnessed part of the massacre first hand.

German documents, i.e. orders for all Jews to assemble on the day of the massacre, are available, and I'm happy to post them for all to see.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:24 am)

Babi Yar ravine outside of Kiev, The Ukraine, is alleged to be an enormous mass shooting site by the Einsatzgruppen (German anti-guerilla/terrorist forces). The numbers are all over the place, from 34,000 to ca. 300,000; which creates skepticism in itself.
The story goes that Jews were shot on the edge of the ravine, fell to the bottom, were then buried. The corpses are said to have been exhumed later to hide the evidence and cremated via:
1. open air pyres
2. ovens made of tombstones from the nearby Jewish cemetery (no, not a joke - that's part of a version of the story). There has never been an official forensic study, it's not permitted. Read on.
Babi Yar photo here:
Image
Image

This particular photo was taken during the exact time of the alleged exhumations & cremations of supposedly, tens of thousands (cremation furnaces alleged to have been made from Jewish tombstones from nearby cemetery, cemetery shown in photo). The photo is available from the U.S. National Archives and is listed as: GX 3938 SG, exposure 105. If the alleged event were true, we would be seeing the massive cremations in progress, large numbers of German soldiers, equipment, the actual disturbed site, etc. We see nothing of the sort.

also see: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndbabiyar.html
===========
The numbers for the alleged Babi Yar massacre are bizarre:

- Encyclopedia of Ukraine, published by University of Toronto Press [1988, Vol. 1, p. 154], states 3,000 were killed.

- On January 27 Prime Minister Viktorr Yushchenko has stated over 100,000 killed.
The New Pathway (Toronto) <newpath> | February 19, 2000, p. 5

- In Toronto, Vitaly Korotych, editor of the Soviet-era journal Ogonyok, delivered a speech on April 23, 1990 wherein he cited a figure of 300,000 killed.

- 2 conflicting & alleged Einsatzgruppen Reports supposedly say ca 31,000 - 36,000. The originals of these "reports" are curiously unavailable.

- Aerial photography of 1943, at the exact time when the bodies were allegedly being exhumed and burned in "ovens made of Jewish cemetery tombstones" reveal absolutely nothing. As well, there is no indication of a mass grave from which these bodies allegedly came.

So, we've gone from 300,000 to 0. It would seem that they're having a difficult time keeping the story straight.
Here's a revealing article from the Barnes Review, 1996,n.7:
Using air photos and wartime newspapers, Ukrainian writer MICHAEL NIKIFORUK attacks a few myths about a wartime atrocity.
What Happened at Babi Yar? Fact vs. Myth


BY Michael Nikiforuk

THE MEMORY of the "massacre" of Jews at Babi Yar is painful to all politicians. But evidence shows it never happened. Aerial reconnaissance photos taken before and during World War II show mass graves of victims of the Soviet Cheka/NKVD, but an absence of Jewish mass burials.
What if anything, happened at a place called Babi Yar (Old Woman's Ravine) near Kiev, Ukraine - September 29, 1941? According to official histories and inscriptions on monuments, 250,000 people, mostly Jews, were killed by the Nazis there. But if thousands of Kievan Jews (those not evacuated by the Soviets) were killed in September of 1941 by the Germans, they were not murdered or buried at Babi Yar. This fact was revealed in aerial reconnaissance photos discovered in the U.S. National Archives in Washington, DC.

In February 1997 a Ukrainian court threw out a case brought by Ukrainian Jews against V. Kretytnychy of the St. Andrew Society and E. Musiyenko, editor of the Kiev Evening News (Vechirnyi Kyiv), who challenged the official Babi Yar story. Encouraged by the court decision, on March 19, 1997 the Kiev Evening News published a four-page story setting the record straight for the first time since the Allies condemned the phony "atrocity" during World War II.
What is now coming to the fore is incontrovertible proof that no massacre took place at Babi Yar during the German occupation of Kiev; that the ravine was not used as a mass grave for Jews killed by the Germans. But it was a burial field between 1922-1935 for the victims of the Cheka/NKVD.
For decades, aerial photography has been recognized as an indispensable archaeological tool. With sophisticated equipment, ruins of ancient cities and cemeteries that lie under cultivated fields, forgotten for decades or centuries, have been discovered. Even submerged Hellenic ports have been discovered by
aerial photography.
In 1991, wartime aerial photographs from the National Archives in Washington, DC were used as the ultimate guidance in exhumations of hundreds of Polish officers and intellectuals massacred in 1939-40 by the Soviet NKVD in the vicinity of Kharkiv. Aerial photos of Kiev's distant suburbs, including Bykivnia, Bilhorodka and Darnista, revealed mass graves of victims of the 1930's Stalinist terror-famine. It is therefore logical to assume that aerial photos of a ravine would reveal evidence of recent mass graves or of a major topographic disturbance.
The US National Archives in Washington contain about 1,100,000 wartime aerial photos, among them some 600 of Kiev, including Babi Yar. They were taken during 20 or more flights over the area. The first photos, taken at 12:23 pm on May 17, 1939, reveal such details as cars and even the shadows of the lamp posts on the streets of Kiev. Every large bush and small tree is visible on the slopes and at the bottom of the Babi Yar ravine. The last aerial photo coverage of Kiev (and Babi Yar) took place on June 18, 1944, about nine months after the city's "liberation" by the Red Army.
This series of reconnaissance photos demonstrates that the flora and the ground cover of the ravine remained undisturbed throughout the two years of German occupation. When the early and late photos are compared, it is obvious that the scattered trees grew and became slightly larger. No evidence of human or large animal activity in the ravine can be discerned on the many aerial photos of Babi Yar taken repeatedly in different seasons of the years 1939-1944.
In November of 1943, a group of Western journalists, including New York Times correspondent William "Bill" Lawrence, himself Jewish, were invited to Kiev by the Soviets. This occurred two weeks after the city's fall to the Red Army. The reporters were told that this was only six weeks after the Germans had completed the dynamiting, disinterment and open-air cremation of 70,000 corpses, followed by the crushing and bulldozing of the unburned bones into the soil of the ravine.
But the Western journalists were hard pressed to find any convincing physical evidence at the site of the alleged massacre.
The lack of reliable physical evidence of this "greatest massacre of World War II" - and the inability to find a single inhabitant of Kiev willing to corroborate the story - impelled the NKVD to provide the Westerners with three "eyewitnesses." Even though a Times editor censored out the most egregious exaggerations (about Soviet partisans and German "gassing vans"), the disjointed story by these three liberated Soviet POW's became the template for imitation for all subsequent Babi Yar testimonies.
When one realizes that all liberated Soviet POW's were facing either a firing squad or a short-lived future in the Gulags (it was a capital crime in the USSR for a soldier to be captured alive by the enemy), one realizes why it was easy for the NKVD to coerce any expedient statement from them.
Two weeks later, Soviet authorities were able to orchestrate massive "grass roots" support for their three Babi Yar witnesses. According to the "front pages of Moscow newspapers," (as reported in the United States), "40,000 Kiev residents [sent a letter] to Premier Josef Stalin, raising the estimate of the number killed and burned in the [Babi Yar] ravine to more than 10,000 (New York Times, Dec. 4, 1943).
Since - in later years - only 11 of these supposedly well-informed citizens offered any testimony, the wartime statistical reports in the NYT regarding Babi Yar (as well as the subsequent testimonies of belated witnesses) may be considered baseless. By 1943, the NKVD had a well-earned reputation for its ability to obtain any testimony from almost any witness.
For instance, in August of 1941, the Soviet press agency TASS and the Associated Press reported as fact the testimonies of NKVD-provided witnesses to the effect that the massacre of about 4,000 Ukrainians in NKVD prisons in the city of Lviv in late June of that year "was committed by the Nazi Storm troopers." This in spite of the fact that Lviv had not been taken by the Germans until July 1, 1941. Long famous testimony extorted by the NKVD from a large number of witnesses told of the mass murder of 4,500 Polish military officers and intellectuals by the Nazis in the Katyn Forest. These fraudulent testimonies, taken under oath in the fall of 1943, were finally refuted by the Russians in the spring of 1990.
However, this admission was not forthcoming until the German pre-invasion aerial reconnaissance photo of Katyn (showing the mass graves of the Polish officers, teachers, etc.) had been transmitted in the fall of 1989 to the Soviet authorities.
Chronology suggests that the NKVD provided Western correspondents with three Soviet ex-POW, as witnesses of the Babi Yar massacre to test their credibility under scrutiny of non-Soviets. In 1943, the Babi Yar massacre, being almost unknown in the West and thus unimportant, was apparently selected by the NKVD for such a "dress rehearsal" prior to the contemplated exposure to Western journalists of fraudulent Katyn massacre witnesses in this far more publicized and more politically important affair.
As a result of the failed Babi Yar credibility test for their ex-POWs, the Soviets for 25 years did not provide access to live "eyewitnesses" of massacres to Western correspondents in Katyn or elsewhere.
Furthermore, the Soviets postponed the inspection of Katyn by Westerners for four months, from Sept. 29, 1943 to January 24, 1944, until the site and the physical evidence were covered by snow and literally frozen, as was the reporters' investigative zeal in the unheated tents provided them.
Among the observers of the work of the Soviet investigative commission was 25-year-old Kathleen Harriman (daughter of then-US Ambassador to Moscow W. Averell Harriman) who, in her naivete', later became (along with her father) a champion of Soviet credibility. On the other hand, the more experienced Lawrence from the NYT, who was also present, was even more skeptical in his Katyn report about presented evidence than in his earlier Babi Yar story. As a result, his Katyn report was spiked and never published.
Thus, the false testimony of the NKVD-provided eyewitnesses of the alleged Babi Yar massacre became the cornerstone of a decades-long Soviet judicial policy of not allowing their fraudulent atrocity witnesses to testify independently; that is, beyond the reach of the supervising Soviet prosecutor, or outside the borders of the USSR.
Soviet archival records reveal that the atrocity propaganda about Katyn and Babi Yar was fabricated by Ilya Ehrenburg and Vasily Grossman, who also invented and reported the now discredited victim counts of Nazi concentration camps: 4 million at Auschwitz; 1.5 million at Majdanek and 3.5 million at Treblinka.
Even at the Nuremberg Trials, the Soviets did not provide to Western authorities or correspondents live eyewitnesses to any German massacres, including Babi Yar and Katyn. Instead, Soviet Prosecutor Col. Smirnoff peddled--but without much success--fabrications in the form of affidavits about the two alleged German massacres. Also Ilya Ehrenburg, in his 1947 novel, The Storm, tried unsuccessfully to revitalize the Babi Yar story.
The Old Woman's Ravine story did not gain "credibility" until 12 years later. Then, a visiting Jewish-Ukrainian-American journalist, Joseph Schechtman, persuaded young Soviet dissident Evgeny Yevtushenko to write an emotional and widely read poem "Babi Yar".
But poetic fancy cannot stand against physical evidence. Indeed, the aerial photos of the Ahovtnevyi borough of Kiev and the general area of Babi Yar reveal the presence of a row of about 10 mass graves, some 165 yards behind the western fence of Kiev's labor camp, Syretz. These could contain up to 1,000 victims of the camp buried over the two years of the German occupation of Kiev. Furthermore, at the nearby small Orthodox Lukianivsky cemetery, another, larger mass grave can be seen. This could contain up to 2,000 bodies of the frequent public or surreptitious German executions of resistance fighters of Kiev.
On this subject, according to the Hague Convention (1905) and the Geneva Convention (1920) on the conduct of civilians during wartime, taking part in hostilities without easily visible, external symbols of belonging to the military units is subject to immediate execution.
A number of additional, overlooked historical facts undermine the credibility of the standard tale propagated about Babi Yar today.
For one thing, the Babi Yar massacre was not mentioned in the Ukrainian Resistance press, although the killing of its members by the Germans in Kiev is described. Secondly, the occurrence of the Babi Yar massacre is excluded, until the late 1970s, from the writings of Ukrainian emigres (former wartime inhabitants of Kiev) as well as from Ukrainian encyclopedias; some published by Western universities. Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, for decades the Babi Yar massacre did not catch the literary attention of Kiev's Jewish population.
The expatriates of about 440 Jewish communities of the USSR were able to produce commemorative books (Yizkerbikhers) about their districts, cities, towns and even villages. But not until 1981 was the first scarce, commemorative book published in a small edition about the Ukrainian capital, Kiev; in Israel in Hebrew. An expanded Yiddish version came out again in a limited edition in the US in 1983. If the massacre at Babyn Yar were true, how could 150,000 surviving, educated Kievan Jews have been so tardy in recording the destruction of their kinsmen?
On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the alleged "Babi Yar massacre," the world's media were replete with reports of the exact number (33,771) of Jews machine-gunned there. They variously reported its timing as taking 48, 36 or 24 hours. However, they rarely mentioned that the suspiciously exact number of victims were derived from captured German documents (so-called "Einsatzgruppen Reports") and were completely silent about the fact that these purported "exact" reports failed to indicate Babi Yar as the site of the massacre.
The media also failed to mention that almost every major historian, including "Holocaust expert" Prof. Raul Hillberg, considers the atrocities mentioned in these reports as exaggerated.
The wartime aerial photos of Kiev provide incontrovertible proof that the so-called historic documentation of the Babi Yar massacre represents fabricated wartime propaganda and post-war martyr mythology. Perhaps the Nazis had, as promised, deported the missing Kievans away from Kiev. If so, their remains and burial sites should be sought elsewhere.
On the other hand, what may have happened in Kiev can be glimpsed from the dispatch of the United States 12th Army Headquarters in Europe, published in (among others) the May 1, 1945 issue of the New York Herald Tribune. It mentions that a captured German doctor, Gustav Schuebbe, who "confessed" to
directing an annihilation institute, where "110,000 Were Murdered by Nazi Physicians in Kiev." In addition, Schuebbe "admitted he had [himself] murdered about 21,000 persons" with injections, thus apparently outdoing Dr. Mengele, the infamous Auschwitz physician.
So, far, no one in the former USSR, or from Jewish organizations, has attempted to pinpoint the location of the "German Annihilation Institute" (where the remaining "Jews and Gypsies" of Kiev were killed, according to the May 1, 1945 issue of the NYHT). Had such a place existed, it would seem that the site of the "Annihilation Institute" would be the proper Kiev location for the commemorative menorah, erected in 1991 following a visit by then-US President George Bush.
Not until 1966 were Ukrainians implicated in the alleged Babi Yar massacre of Jews. The only witness was an alleged Babi Yar survivor, a Kiev Puppet Theater actress named Dina Pronicheva. The testimony of this Jewish witness is nullified by the absence of any photographic trace of massacre or mass burial. Furthermore, no witness has ever implied the complicity of Ukrainians in acts perpetrated at the never-located German Annihilation Institute of Kiev.
Following the Soviet Union's demise, the leaders of the then-newly-proclaimed independent Ukraine - instant converts from communism - were fast to jump on the Babi Yar bandwagon.
One of them, Ukraine's Ambassador to the United Nations, Genadi Udovenko, went so far as to state (Washington Times, Sept. 5, 1991) that "in the first week of the horrible Babi Yar massacre, 50,000 Jews, mostly children, had been slaughtered."
During the summer of 1941, the Soviets had been able to evacuate about 150,000 Jews from Kiev, while the Germans were advancing through Western Ukraine. Therefore, the Ukrainian Ambassador's statement was preposterous and inadvertently defamatory.
It suggested that Jewish parents, who had been safely evacuated from Kiev, had abandoned their children.
Perhaps Ukraine's current leaders might better serve their people, as well as their post-Communist consciences, by exhibiting tangible contrition relative to Communism's early 1930's famine-slaughter of unquestionably immense proportions.

Ofcourse, this hasn't stopped the fraud and profit motive, now see this:

The New Pathway (Toronto) | February 19, 2000, p. 5
STOCKHOLM (Interfax)
-- Prime Minister Viktorr Yushchenko has announced his government's support for an initiative by the Jewish Confederation of Ukraine to set up a Holocaust museum in Kyiv.
Speaking to the International Forum on the Holocaust in Stockholm, Sweden, on January 27, Mr. Yushchenko said: "The Ukrainian people strongly take to heart the suffering of the Jews, for they also experienced such horrors as war, famine, fascism and Stalin's repressions. The very existence of our nation, its language and culture, were denied."
In particular, the prime minister mentioned Babyn Yar, the site made notorious by a Nazi extermination operation which victimized over 100,000 people of various nationalities, a majority of whom were Jews.
Mr. Yuschchenko also called on the world Jewish community and its organizations to assist Ukraine's Holocaust commemoration effort.
He assured his audience that the reforms his Cabinet was proposing would significantly improve the living conditions of his country's Jewish community.
At present, there are approximately 480,000 Jews living in just under 100 cities in Ukraine, with about 300 Jewish organizations and over 70 functioning synagogues.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:52 am)

Ah, Babi Yar...

Image

The above photograph is said to be Jews on the march to Babi Yar on the 29 september of 1941. Curiously enough there are no Germans present. There is a corpse on the sidewalk - and it seems to have been shot in the head and someone seems to have molested the person in some way, seeing as the trousers are ripped. I find all of it very, very unlikely.

Next,

Image

This photograph is said to be Jews at Babi Yar. There is a woman in uniform and next to her stands a man with what appears to be asiatic features. Then there are three guys wearing suits and hats. I guess they are observers? :roll:

Were women really allowed to join a Einsatzgruppe? Well, I assume this person must be a woman, because the hairstyle seems a bit out of whack from the standarts followed by the German Army and the Waffen-SS. But anything goes in these stories, we really aren't supposed to notice.

I skipped some other well-known photographs/fakes as they have been discussed previously in other threads.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:08 am)

The Babi Yar yarn is a classic, the story has been changed repeatedly and there's absolutely no mass grave. None.

more:
Image
Image
accompaning text:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndaerial.html

4.3. Babi Yar

It is said that after the city of Kyiv was occupied by German troops the Jews of this city were taken to Babi Yar, a ravine at the northwestern edge of the city, near the Jewish cemetery. According to eyewitness accounts, they were shot there, thrown into the ravine, and buried - according to some witness statements, the ravine was also blasted and the bodies buried under the rubble.

In late summer of 1943, when the Front retreated again, the bodies were allegedly exhumed and cremated on gigantic funeral pyres or in pits. These activities allegedly ended on September 28, 1943, when the Kyiv area was already part of the main battle zone.[14]

Illustration 3 shows the ravine of Babi Yar in an air photo taken by the Luftwaffe on September 26, 1943.[15] The part of the ravine (near the Jewish cemetery) where the massacre allegedly took place is shown as enlargement in illustration 4. What we see is in fact a placid and peaceful valley. Neither the topography nor the vegetation has been disrupted by human intervention. There are no access roads for the transport of humans or fuel, no fuel depots, no excavations, no burning sites, and no smoke.

We may conclude with certainty that no part of the Babi Yar ravine was subjected to topographical changes of any magnitude during the war years right up to the Soviet reoccupation of the area. The vegetation in this valley was also not disturbed.[16] Hence, there can have been no mass graves in these locations, and the mass cremations attested to can also not have taken place at this time.

more:

Babi Yar photo, 9/26/43, at time of alleged mass exhumation/cremation actions....note the detail as a car on the road at bottom of photo is easily seen:

Image

So, where's what is alleged?
Where is the smoke, fuel trucks, troops, massive pit from where corpses allegedly came, marks where trucks entered area, corpses? Nothing whatsoever.

Perhaps the photo is 'antisemitic'.

- Hannover
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Postby stuker » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:24 am)

The interesting thing about going to Babi Yar is that one has a fairly good idea of the physical environment.

And I can tell you now and qith 100% certainty, Hannover - at least three of those photographs are not of Babi Yar. They lack one single very. very obvious phyiscal feature.

The numbers are all over the place, from 34,000 to ca. 300,000; which creates skepticism in itself.


Only if you read - and believe - very unreliable sources.

There are 3 major historians who have written about Babi Yar - the ubiquitous Montefiore ("Stalin"), Overy ("Russias War") and Pleshakov ("Stalin's Folly"). They all use the figure of 77,000.

Can you be sure that any of your cources have actualy been to Babi Yar?

I do have to wonder when you post:

outside of Kiev,


Are you sure that is where it is?

When I went there it was 3 metro stops from Kreshatyk (City Centre).

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:09 pm)

I too visited Babi Yar ravine a few years ago. I saw no indication of prior earth disturbance. The area at the top of the ravine is closely occupied by houses. I cannot tell when they were built and they may have been constructed after the war but if they were there at the time of the supposed shootings there would be no room for any victims to be shot there. The ravine area is now occupied with many trees with no sign of burning or disturbance. If the numbers of people claimed to have been shot there were true the spent ammunition should be found in the area and there was none.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:03 pm)

stuker wrote:The interesting thing about going to Babi Yar is that one has a fairly good idea of the physical environment.

And I can tell you now and qith 100% certainty, Hannover - at least three of those photographs are not of Babi Yar. They lack one single very. very obvious phyiscal feature.

The numbers are all over the place, from 34,000 to ca. 300,000; which creates skepticism in itself.


Only if you read - and believe - very unreliable sources.

There are 3 major historians who have written about Babi Yar - the ubiquitous Montefiore ("Stalin"), Overy ("Russias War") and Pleshakov ("Stalin's Folly"). They all use the figure of 77,000.

Can you be sure that any of your cources have actualy been to Babi Yar?

I do have to wonder when you post:

outside of Kiev,


Are you sure that is where it is?

When I went there it was 3 metro stops from Kreshatyk (City Centre).

Photos not of Babi Yar? Huh?

According to the US Army and US National Archives they are. Are they lying? Stuker, you are in contradiction to what your very own storytellers say is the location of Babi Yar. Even Wikipedia says near Kiev "located between the Frunze and Melnykov streets and between the St. Cyril's Monastery and Olena Teliha Street."

And what physical feature is 'lacking'? The ravine is there clear as day. Of course the alleged mass grave is certainly missing and I notice you cannot show it.

What do your sources say about Babi Yar, stuker? Be specific.

My photo sources, the US Army, US National Archives would seem to be more reliable than your not so 'major' historians. Your 'major' historians say 77,000, but the offical storyline says ca. 34,000. Your use of the term 'major' just won't cut it, it is hardly proof of what they allege. Where's the proof?

Now, please show us the alleged mass grave at Babi Yar.

- Hannover
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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:57 pm)

stuker wrote:There are 3 major historians who have written about Babi Yar - the ubiquitous Montefiore ("Stalin"), Overy ("Russias War") and Pleshakov ("Stalin's Folly"). They all use the figure of 77,000.


What exactly do they base this number upon? Yes, we can agree on one point; a very obvious phyiscal feature is missing; that of the supposed victims, and that of any supposed remains.

As Hannover has posted very detailed areal photographs of the time where the cremation/burning process were said to be in "full steam" - curiously enough there is nothing on these areal photographs indicating any such undertaking, none what so ever!

So I must ask a final question; because your three 'major historians' have supposedly agreed upon the number of c.a 77,000 dead you accept this without any doubt, without any proof, without any research - in short, without any evidence whatsoever? Excuse me but that seems absurd.

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Postby stuker » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:06 pm)

Radar -

The houses at the top of the ravine are actually a good 400 m from the edge, and actually no, they weren't there at the time of the massacre - in fact, that area was where the camp buildings were contruscted.

Hannover -

The physical feature that is missing from your pics is not the ravine itself.

btw, the ravine IS the mass grave. Take any pic, and find the monument. That's the mass grave. I have pics if you want to see them.

historians say 77,000, but the offical storyline says ca. 34,000.


Actually no, this is a fairly simple case of not understanding what the figures refer to.

The 34,000 figure probably refers to the Jewish toll - the 77,000 is the total masscare tooll, and the 100,000 figure sometimes used refers to the massacre plus subsequent camp deaths.

Haldan -

What exactly do they base this number upon? Y


German records.

As Hannover has posted very detailed areal photographs


He did - but also pics which are definitely not of Babi Yar.

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Postby stuker » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:14 pm)

because your three 'major historians' have supposedly agreed upon the number of c.a 77,000 dead you accept this without any doubt, without any proof, without any research - in short, without any evidence whatsoever? Excuse me but that seems absurd.


Excuase me Haldan, but does it seem at all ironic to you that you accuse me of lack of research, when we're dicussing a place I've been to personally, and you haven't?

Would you mind telling us quite what research you PERSONALLY have conducted into Babi Yar?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:20 pm)

stuker wrote:Radar -

The houses at the top of the ravine are actually a good 400 m from the edge, and actually no, they weren't there at the time of the massacre - in fact, that area was where the camp buildings were contruscted.

Hannover -

The physical feature that is missing from your pics is not the ravine itself.

btw, the ravine IS the mass grave. Take any pic, and find the monument. That's the mass grave. I have pics if you want to see them.

historians say 77,000, but the offical storyline says ca. 34,000.


Actually no, this is a fairly simple case of not understanding what the figures refer to.

The 34,000 figure probably refers to the Jewish toll - the 77,000 is the total masscare tooll, and the 100,000 figure sometimes used refers to the massacre plus subsequent camp deaths.

Haldan -

What exactly do they base this number upon? Y


German records.

As Hannover has posted very detailed areal photographs


He did - but also pics which are definitely not of Babi Yar.

Sorry stuker, the photos are of Babi Yar, you're in denial of the US Army and US Archive Records.

"probably refers to the jewish toll"? Does it supposedly or doesn't it?

What German records can you show us? Not claims of, but authentic German records.

Show us the mass grave, the entire ravine was not said to be the alleged mass grave. Stop playing games, please.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Haldan
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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:33 pm)

stuker wrote:
because your three 'major historians' have supposedly agreed upon the number of c.a 77,000 dead you accept this without any doubt, without any proof, without any research - in short, without any evidence whatsoever? Excuse me but that seems absurd.


Excuase me Haldan, but does it seem at all ironic to you that you accuse me of lack of research, when we're dicussing a place I've been to personally, and you haven't?


Right, this is enough. I am not going to waste one more minute of my time with you, stuker.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:36 pm)

stuker wrote:
because your three 'major historians' have supposedly agreed upon the number of c.a 77,000 dead you accept this without any doubt, without any proof, without any research - in short, without any evidence whatsoever? Excuse me but that seems absurd.


Excuase me Haldan, but does it seem at all ironic to you that you accuse me of lack of research, when we're dicussing a place I've been to personally, and you haven't?

Would you mind telling us quite what research you PERSONALLY have conducted into Babi Yar?

Well, myself, I've consulted all the major sources for the allegations, consulted research critical of the bizarre claims, consulted the aerial photos, noticed that there is no verifiable forensic report on the alleged mass grave.
Note, here is a forensic report:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=758
see .pdf given for Katyn excavation

I have researched and concluded that the alleged method of exhumation/cremations are patently absurd and utterly impossible given the laughable methods and time length alleged.

I have determined the fraudulent and non-existent 'exhumation orders' for the east are contradicted by the fact there there are claims of continued mass burial, mass graves after the alleged time of the alleged order to clean up all the alleged mass graves (another lie management problem has come home to roost).

That is compounded by the fact that my research has shown that the SS man supposedly in charge of removing the mass graves, Blobel, 'confessed' that they could not exhume all the alleged sites, and yet curiously the untouched mass graves are nowhere to be found. That throws a wrench into the claim that all traces of mass graves were removed (another lie management issue).

My research also indicates that even exhumed mass graves are impossible to hide. There are no mass graves as alleged.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Reinhard » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:24 pm)

stuker wrote:After Ukranian nationalists had blown up a couple of buildings in central Kiev, Germans rounded up Jews, and executed them in an apparent act of reprisal.


It seems, you haven't "researched this subject extensively" enough, for your above quoted claim is completely untrue.

Not "Ukrainian nationalists" have blown up those buildings, but the Soviet Army has blown them up by remote control (radio signal).

stuker wrote:And I can tell you now and with 100% certainty, Hannover - at least three of those photographs are not of Babi Yar. They lack one single very. very obvious phyiscal feature.


Would you be so kind to tell us which?

stuker wrote:German documents, i.e. orders for all Jews to assemble on the day of the massacre, are available, and I'm happy to post them for all to see.


Why don't you?

stuker wrote:

What exactly do they base this number upon?


German records.


Which records exactly? Please give us the exact sources.

Please have a look at the link posted by Hannover:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndbabiyar.html

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Postby David Phillips » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:51 am)

Its not much a ravine these days.

Regarding the aerial photos, these people
http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/babi%20yar.html
accept them as genuine and as they have been rather involved in digging out contemperanous (sp?) maps including topographical ones I think we can also accept them.

I dont agree with all their intepretations, particularly the way they modeled the ravine of this map.
anycase the aerial photo does seem to show the cemetary marked on this map

Image


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