Babi Yar

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David Phillips
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Postby David Phillips » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:53 am)

Having said that I would like to see the series of aerial photograph that would allow me to place Syrets railway station and Frunze street that apparantly was a major street with a tramline running along it.

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Postby Barrington James » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:48 am)

Babi Yar will always be fond memory for me. It's the last book about the holocaust in which I was a true believer. Up until then , for a period of about 25 years I believed everything I read , heard or seen about the "gassing of six million". However the book Babi Yar was just too much.

The idea that the Nazis would try to use machine guns to kill people 50 or 100 at at time, that the 75, 000 Jews would have been stupid enough to meekly march to their death and wait their turn to meet the machine guns, and that the Nazis would even attempt to do this form of execution in the middle of a war with enemy soldiers and/or partisans everywhere was just silly.

If, for example, the Nazis had tried to machine gun the victims as the book describes rather than shoot them back of the head, the Nazis would then have had to go amongest the crying, squirming, moaning bodies, many of them half blown away and yet alive, with blood, brains, flesh, and bone everywhere in order to finish of the still living, hour after hour, day after day, until all 75, 000 dead. I find this highly unlikely. Also the idea that the author of the book and her daugther avoided death by pretending to be dead after having been machine gunned was equally unbelievable. I became a doubter after reading this book.
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:59 am)

stuker,
We do not allow dodging of direct questions (as stated in guidelines you agreed to), you have avoided almost all of them put to you.

You made specific claims, but when challenged to produce them, you did not.

Do not post to this thread anymore without answering the questions put to you, without producing the information you claimed you had.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:12 am)

I suggest stuker and our readers review this thread to see the claims that stuker made and the requests for him to back up his claims.
Also note the requests for specifics about the Babi Yar story in general which stuker heralds, while ignoring direct challenges.
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Postby Radar » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:03 pm)

Stuker,

I admit that I do not know when the houses at the top of the ravine were constructed but I hope your information is better than your statement that they are 400 meters from the top of the ravine. They are quite visible from the ravine, built right up to the ravine edge.

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Postby diaz52 » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:26 pm)

Hannover wrote:Babi Yar ravine outside of Kiev, The Ukraine, is alleged to be an enormous mass shooting site by the Einsatzgruppen (German anti-guerilla/terrorist forces). The numbers are all over the place, from 34,000 to ca. 300,000; which creates skepticism in itself.
The story goes that Jews were shot on the edge of the ravine, fell to the bottom, were then buried. The corpses are said to have been exhumed later to hide the evidence and cremated via:
1. open air pyres
2. ovens made of tombstones from the nearby Jewish cemetery (no, not a joke - that's part of a version of the story). There has never been an official forensic study, it's not permitted.- Hannover


This particular part of the Holohoax story seems to me to be one that can be proven by establishment "historians" readily enough. This thought occured to me while watching the TV program "Myth Busters." (Quick quiz: which myth will never be put to the test on that show? If you don't know then immediately seek medical attention, you may have had a stroke...). But on that show they were using a device to try and locate Jimmy Hoffa's body under the football field at Giants Stadium in East Rutherford New Jersey. The pushed this device around on the field and were unable to locate the famed mob-connected union boss. They had done a test previously on a pig buried underground and were able to detect it using the device, so they were reasonably confident they could detect Hoffa should he be there. My point is that even if the Germans did exhume these victims of mass shoootings as the establishment story claims, surely they didnt get all of them. Surely there remain some bodies down there, to be detected and then exhumed for forensic analysis. Since the figures are all over the place, lets take 100, 000 victims for an example. If they missed just 2% of the bodies - and remember the Germans were in a war far from home in a hostile environment harrassed by partisans, hard pressed, increasingly and perpetually short of everything from man power to supplies and equipment- then that would leave 2,000 bullet riddled bodies down there. The German bullets could be recovered from the bodies, or from the soil next to the bodies (as they are surely skeletons now. But even so they will show signs of how they died- bullet holes in the skulls, broken ribs, bullets that are damaged and bent from impact, etc. Even if they are mere skeletons they will have forensic value and a tale to tell of how they died). So, its curious that such measures haven't been taken. Just take one or two of these machines, go there and locate a pocket of bodies, dig them up, and submit them to forensic analysis. With such large numbers being shot, even with the nonsensical story about the cremation using Jewish tombstones, there must be some bodies still down there. They couldnt have gotten them all, it just doesnt seem likely given the circumstances. The establishment could do these things, but won't. And we know why...
-You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
-The establishment can't control the web, and the control of information through all means but one, is no control at all.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:04 am)

For those who read German, Nr 51 of Udo Walendy's journal Historische Tatsachen (1992) - 41 pages devoted entirely to Babi Yar - is now available as a pdf for free download at VHO:

http://vho.org/dl/DEU/bj.pdf

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Postby duckchuck » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:35 pm)

Stuker:

I visited Babi Yar recently, and would be keen to share my impressions of the site. I have also researched this subject extensively, and believe that proof of the massacre is total... German documents, i.e. orders for all Jews to assemble on the day of the massacre, are available, and I'm happy to post them for all to see.


Rather than "being keen to sharing your impressions" or "being happy to post German documents," wouldn't it make more sense for you to show us were all the alleged "huge mass graves" of Babi Yar are? I would be happy - nay, keen for you to offer some real evidence (ie - archaeological / forensic) of this alleged holocaust within the holocaust.

After all, if the "proof" of this alleged massacre is "total," then surely you have located the "huge mass graves" of Babi Yar, right?

No graves = No Babi Yar holocaust

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Postby duckchuck » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:47 pm)

Stuker:

btw, the ravine IS the mass grave. Take any pic, and find the monument. That's the mass grave. I have pics if you want to see them... The 34,000 figure probably refers to the Jewish toll - the 77,000 is the total masscare tooll, and the 100,000 figure sometimes used refers to the massacre plus subsequent camp deaths.


So there are 100,000 people buried under the monument huh? Surely, since a blind man could forensically prove this alleged massacre using a toy plastic shovel, the holocaust industry has used forensic science / modern archaeological methods to prove all this, right? Of course, you are willing to share all this scientific "proof" with us, aren't you Stuker?

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Postby duckchuck » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:00 pm)

Stuker:

Excuase me Haldan, but does it seem at all ironic to you that you accuse me of lack of research, when we're dicussing a place I've been to personally, and you haven't? Would you mind telling us quite what research you PERSONALLY have conducted into Babi Yar?


Stuker (from an earlier post)

I have pics if you want to see them.


Yes Stuker, I would like to see the pics of you PERSONALLY doing research at the alleged Babi Yar holocaust site. I am particularly interested in finding out exactly what noninvasive remote scannning technology you used. Surely youre pics show you using aerial infrared photography, thermographic infrared multispectral scanning, imaging radar, soil resistivity mapping, ground penetrating radar, magnetometer mapping, geophysical diffraction tomography and/or geographic information system mapping, right Stuker?

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Postby Barrington James » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:56 pm)

About Babi Yar...I recall reading a book called Babi Yar...it came out about 30 years ago...It told the fascinating story of how a women and her daughter fooled the Nazis in order to avoid being machine gunned at Babi Yar (you will never guess how) …by first pretending to be shot and then lying very still as a German officer came around shooting all the not quite dead people.

Can you just imagine the horror of hundreds of moaning, gasping, screaming, crippled, heads blown off, bodies parts scattered everywhere mass of blood, bones and flesh all happening every 30 minutes of so until all the hundred of thousand people or so were killed? Does this sound like an efficient method of mass murder to you?

Anyway, she and her daughter then waited for dark and then crawled away…safe and sound….

I, of course, believed the book for about ten years (?) …until I started to think….and I have been a denier ever since…

Nevertheless Babi Yar will always remain one of my favorite non –events…within the larger context of one of the greatest hoaxes of the 20’Th century.
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

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Postby duckchuck » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:15 pm)

Barrington James:

I, of course, believed the book for about ten years (?) …until I started to think….and I have been a denier ever since…


I asume what you mean by that is - You've been a rational thinker ever since?

You cannot “deny” something that doesn’t exist or never happened.

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Postby duckchuck » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:27 pm)

Don't forget, IF there was a Babi Yar holocaust, then there are huge mass graves to prove it. For each alleged murder victim, there is at least one bullet and shell casing, so one could easily locate these alleged "huge mass graves" with a cheap metal detector IF they actually existed.

I also have another question for Stuker while I'm here - Were the geysers of blood erupting while you were conduting your PERSONAL research at Babi Yar? Please include a "pic" of this natural phenomenon along with the proof of all the "huge mass graves," will you please?

No graves = No Babi Yar holocaust

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:45 pm)

Does anyone know what happened to the Steven Spielberg documentary on Babi Yar that was supposedly in the works?

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Postby KostasL » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:55 pm)

Laurentz Dahl wrote:Does anyone know what happened to the Steven Spielberg documentary on Babi Yar that was supposedly in the works?


Steven Spielberg can make Babi Yar very impressive and spectacular.

He is a great illusionist but not historian, unfortunately.


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