Camp Chelmno

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Camp Chelmno

Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:38 am)

Image

According to Jewish historian Gerald Fleming in Hitler and the Final Solution the damaged German truck shown in above picture is one of the alleged "killing gas wagons" used in the extermination camp Chelmno in Poland.

The number of killed victims in that camp varies somewhat:

Reitlinger: 11,000
Delarue: 34,000
Jewish Historical Institute Warsaw: 54,900
Klee: at least 100,000
Hilberg I: more than 100,000
Hilberg II: 150,000
Massentötungen I: 152,676
Höhne: 300,000
Massentötungen II: more than 300,000
Dawidowicz, Nellesen: 340,000
IMT, Vol. VIII: at least 340,000
Gilbert: 360,000

(Source: Ingrid Weckert, How was that in Kulmhof/Chelmno?)

:(

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:19 am)

The silly numbers are good examples of the liars not keeping their stories straight.

And notice that they don't show us the inside of this laughable 'gas van'. If true we would be seeing a complete schematic, detailed photos of the working apparatus, a thorough forensic study; we see none of this .... because it's a lie.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:58 am)

nice debunking of Chelmno here:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=75

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Jul 14, 2003 2:29 pm)

Hannover wrote:nice debunking of Chelmno here:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=75

- H.


I forgot about that one.

As proof for the gas van thesis serves among others a document from the Bundesarchiv Koblenz with the designation: R 58/871. This is an “Aktenvermerk” (note to file) of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt.

(Ingrid Weckert believes that it is a forgery. The note seems to be incomplete, out of context, it is not usual to start a text with an example without first explaining what the example in question is all about).

This note starts as follows:
»Since December 1941 were for example 97,000 processed using three vans, without any defects in the vehicles. The known explosion in Kulmhof should be considered as an exception. Its cause can be attributed to incorrect operation..«

See also THHP in http://www.holocaust-history.org/194206 ... zialwagen/

Rückerl writes about this in NS-Vernichtungslager:
»This part of the secret note obviously refers to the camp Chelmno, because it correctly states the beginning of the extermination action (December 1941) as well as the number of gas vans (three deployed vans) and connets directly these statements with the explosion of a gas van in Chelmno.«

However:
»Since December 1941 […] with 3 deployed vans«.
In the chapter about the origin of the gas vans Massentötungen (the German Holocauster bible) explained that at this point in time, December 1941, the delivery of the Saurer-vehicle chassis was still in the process of being negotiated. After that they were supposed to be provided by the firm Gaubschat with the enclosing container. The completed vans could not have been delivered before spring 1942. How was it possible that already three of these vans were in operation since December 1941?

»97,000 were processed«.[/]
Even under the presupposition of a camouflage language can this formulation not imply a murder.
The number of 97,000 furthermore contradicts the statistics by Rückerl as adopted in the conclusion of [I]Massentötungen
of the deportations from Lodz, which are generally equated with the murder victims of Kulmhof/Chelmno. Rückerl says, (p. 276) that until the end of May 1942 55,000 Jews were deported from Lodz. This number and not 97,000 should have been in the Aktenvermerk of June 5, 1942, if it is really about the murder victims of Kulmhof/Chelmno.

»The known explosion in Kulmhof«.
In actuality there exists no information about such an explosion anywhere, except in this note.

I don’t think that the THHP people who flag this document as important really checked it out. And they have all these learned Phd’s, academics and what not available to assist.

:D
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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Jul 14, 2003 2:42 pm)

Is that the best they can do? That van could be any van!

Is it me, or has the van got a soft-top roof?

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:30 pm)

Turpitz wrote:Is it me, or has the van got a soft-top roof?

I think you are correct, the top looks like a canvas.

About Chelmno all the eyewitnesses had different stories to tell.

One of my favorites is by Adolf Eichmann, who descibed during his trials in Jerusalem the scene completely different:

»The Jews had to undress. A truck came, covered on all sides, the door opening was in the front. The wagon drove to a certain roadblock downtown. There the naked Jews were forced to enter. The doors were closed and the truck took off.« (Hausner, Justice[17], p. 89)

Was this a completely new type of truck, which was loaded from the front – through the driver compartment?. And the whole thing occurred evidently in the center of the town, »at a certain roadblock«, where the naked Jews had to wait for the arrival of the wagon.

Nudist colony Chelmno!

In the German abbreviated edition of this work[18] the translator (or the publisher) did not dare to present this unbelievable story to his readers.

:D
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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:02 pm)

"Small country house"
=====================

Central Commision for Investigation of German Crimes in
Poland

GERMAN CRIMES IN POLAND (Warsaw, 1946, 1947)

Extermination Camp Chelmno (Kulmhof)

Part I

...

The village of Chelmno (district of Kolo) is situated 14 km.
(8 3/4 miles) from the town of Kolo, ...

In the village there was a small country house surrounded by
an old park, which was owned by the State and stood empty.
In the vicinity was a pine-wood, sections of which, densely
planted with young trees, were almost impenetrable.


"Castle"
========

Testimony of Wilhelm Heukelbach about the Chelmno death camp
[Quoted in "Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
Use of Poison Gas", edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, 85-6]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I was often on duty in the castle's cellar passage when the Jews
arrived.

==========================================

There is very little said about Chelmno. The only thing quoted today by Holocaust insane are a couple of accounts of how they led Jews through some passage to the truck. One they don't refer to is the tale about underground ovens in the woods.

==========================================

There is a sizable Holocaust memorial at Chelmno. It includes about a half acre of land bordered by a low stone war and is marked as the grave site. Any little kid with a toy shovel could show the only thing there is the initial ground.

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Postby Karl S » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:49 pm)

Sailor wrote:One of my favorites is by Adolf Eichmann, who descibed during his trials in Jerusalem the scene completely different:

»The Jews had to undress. A truck came, covered on all sides, the door opening was in the front. The wagon drove to a certain roadblock downtown. There the naked Jews were forced to enter. The doors were closed and the truck took off.« (Hausner, Justice[17], p. 89)


I believe the correct sentence is: :)

He witnessed in Chelmno the parade of the naked Jews who had been stripped of their clothing and were waiting their turn for death by asphyxiation with gas.

Link here

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:13 pm)

Karl S wrote:I believe the correct sentence is: :)

He witnessed in Chelmno the parade of the naked Jews who had been stripped of their clothing and were waiting their turn for death by asphyxiation with gas.

Link here


I translated from a quote from Gideon Hausner’s book, Justice in Jerusalem, New York: Holocaust Library 1968. Source: Weckert How was that in Chelmno.

Hausner was the prosecuting attorney during the Eichmann trials in Jerusalem.

Where Nizkor got their information from I don’t know. Nizkor titles the quoted link as transcripts from the Eichmann trial.

:D
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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Tue Jul 15, 2003 2:09 pm)

Kogon/Rückerl/Langbein et al in: Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen duch Giftgas, the German Holocauster bible, report about children transports to Kulmhof/Chelmno from Czechoslovakia, from Poland and from the Soviet Union in ordedr to be killed there(p. 133).

The two witnesses who are quoted however know of only one transport with children. There were three trucks with about 200 children says one witness, and that happened in the summer of 1942.

The other witness reports, that the children did not look Jewish at all, but rather Polish. Rückerl in NS-Vernichtungslager also mentions this transport. He estimates the number not at 200 but talks of 50-75 children at the age of 4-14 years.

»The children transport consisted allegedly, according to Polish investigations, of children from Lidice, who could not be Germanized.« (Rückerl, p. 280, Note 76)

He adds that real proof for this does not exist.

Actually the files of Yad Vashem, Jerusalem, contain a written correspondence dated from July 4 to 25, 1942, exactly within the same time frame mentioned in Massentötungen about a group of »children from the Protectorat Böhmen and Mähren which could not be Germanized«[26].

But there were neither 200 nor 75, but only 12 children from 1 to 15 years old, whose full names, date of birth, place of birth and addresses were listed.

These children were sent to Litzmannstadt (Lodz) for further accomodations.

:D
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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:09 pm)

The accounts for Chelmno are so bad that a number of websites carry the version from the -

Central Commision for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland

GERMAN CRIMES IN POLAND (Warsaw, 1946, 1947)

Extermination Camp Chelmno (Kulmhof)

==================================

Just about everything ever mentioned in any of these initial accounts is not cited in later accounts because of how utterly brazen they were.

Get a load of this passage -


"The furnaces were blown up by the camp authorities on April 7, 1943. Two new ones were, however, constructed in 1944, when the camp activities were resumed. The witnesses Zurawski and Srebrnik, and the captured gendarme Bruno Israel, who saw them in 1944, describe them as follows:

They were built deep in the ground and did not project above its surface; and were shaped like inverted cones with rectangular bases. At the top on the ground level the furnaces measured 6 x 10 m (2O x 33 ft.) and they were 4 m (13 ft.) deep. At the bottom by the ash-pit they measured 1.5 x 2 m (95 x 6 in. ft.). The grates were made of rails. A channel to the ash-pit ensured the admittance of air and permitted the removal of ashes and bones. The sides of the furnace were made of firebrick and faced with cement. In the furnace were alternate layers of chopped wood and corpses: to facilitate combustion, space was left between the corpses. The furnace could hold 100 corpses at a time, but as they burned down, fresh ones were added from above."

Yikes.

The account also says the extermination area was 2½ miles away from the burial site. It says on an average some 1000 Jews a day were mass exterminated there over a 1½ year period. So they would mass exterminate 1000 a day and then have to load the bodies on trucks to take them to the burial site 2½ miles away.

Incredibly it says as above, the Germans ceased operation and destroyed the initial set up and then in 1944 built new facilities.

So we have it the Germans ceased operation at such places as Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka in later 1942 or early 1943 and then suddenly realized they could lose the war and better dig up the millions and cremate them but then they go ahead and build new facilities at Chelmno in 1944?

See the full nonsense at -

http://weber.ucsd.edu/~lzamosc/gchelmno.html

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 7 years ago (Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:45 pm)

Tom Moran cites 'Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland, GERMAN CRIMES IN POLAND, (Warsaw, 1946, 1947).
This is a frequently referred to work in 2 volumes.

In vol. 1, on p.58 it states 'prisoners were given salads to induce thirst, a corpse was found holding the liver of a dead companion...he had died while devouring the liver'.

Yet this 2 volume marvel of absurdity is considered some of the cream of 'holocau$t' evidence.

AND, if you question it you will be put in prison in most of Europe and Canada.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Karl S » 1 decade 7 years ago (Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:04 pm)

If one read "CHELMNO / KULMHOF Ein vergessener Ort des Holocaust?" by Manfred Struck ( ISBN 3-86077-933-8 ) one will understand that the best eyewitness from Chelmno is a refugee called 'Szlamek'.

Have anybody heard about him?

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 7 years ago (Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:23 pm)

Karl S wrote:Have anybody heard about him?


I don't think anybody has noticed him. However a search at Google with "Szlamek Chelmno" shows this:

Google wrote:BLAJER, Szlamek

Szlamek Blajer lived until December 1941 in Warthegau. He was deported to the death camp Chelmno (German: Kulmhof). From this camp he escaped in January 1942. For several days he lived in the Warsaw ghetto where he contacted Emanuel Ringelblum. He was the first person who informed the Warsaw Jews about the death camp and the deportations. Because he couldn`t stay in the Warsaw ghetto and his sister lived in Zamosc ghetto, he escaped to Zamosc.

When in March 1942 "Aktion Reinhardt" started, the Jews in the Lublin district observed the way of the transports, and very quickly rumours started in the provincional ghettos, about Belzec. Szlamek still had contact with Ringelblum and his group, and he sent a secret letter with the first news about Belzec, writing "the place in Belzec is the same as in Kulmhof" and that until end of March 1942 the Jews from many small towns around Zamosc were sent there.

Szlamek didn`t survive the first deportation from Zamosc ghetto. Together with his sister he was deported to Belzec on April 11th 1942. About this fact the son of Szlamek`s sister informed Ringleblum.

Szlamek`s report about Chelmno was published in Poland, after the war. During the war it was part of the secret reports about the death camps sent from Poland to London.
Source: R.Kuwalek.
Link: http://www.deathcamps.org/belzec/Roll%2 ... emembrance

Please note that in book "CHELMNO / KULMHOF" (printed 2001) they don't know his real name. But "Deathcamps" knows!

Google wrote:A part of the camp's personnel and a group of the last 45 Jews, imprisoned in a granary near the palace ruins, and remained in the village. The last execution took place on the night of January 17th, 1945. The Jews were killed by a shot to the back of the head. Only two men survived: Mieczyslaw Zurawski and Szymon Srebrnik, who had escaped from the camp in January 1942, bacame the eyewitnesses of this crime after the war. Two other fugitives "Szlamek" and Abraham Roj, died before the end of the war.

Link: http://www.zchor.org/CHELMSUM.HTM

As you probably guessed, I have this book too. A tip; when your are at these sites (Holocaust sites) buy every book you can afford. It's a complete 'Greulpropaganda' and a well of information to debunk the story. I bought this book at Chelmno.

As Tom Moran pointed out in previously post, there isn't one killing centre in Chelmno, there are two. It's the 'Schloss' and 'Wald' (Castle and Forest).

If the Webmaster allows me, I can e-mail scanned maps of both sites. :x
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 7 years ago (Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:09 am)

Karl S wrote:If one read "CHELMNO / KULMHOF Ein vergessener Ort des Holocaust?" by Manfred Struck ( ISBN 3-86077-933-8 ) one will understand that the best eyewitness from Chelmno is a refugee called 'Szlamek'.

Have anybody heard about him?


Neither the German amazon.de.com nor the German antiquariat carry anything with that title or by that author.
The Holocaust literature I am familiar with do not list a witness with ‘Szlamek’. It seems to be a popular Jewish first name.

The survivor witnesses for the camp Chelmno in the classical Holocaust™ literature are:
Mordechai Zurawski, Michael Podchlebnik and Simon Srebnik.

And then there is a Jakov Grojanowski, who allegedly escaped from Chelmno, reported his story to a Dr. Ringelblum in Warsaw (according to Kogon/Rückerl/Langbein et al: Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen duch Giftgas, German hoaxer bible) His recorded story was found in the ruins of the ghetto in Ringelblum’s file.
However in the German edition of Ringelblum’s »Diaries«[34] Grojanowski is not mentioned at all.
Grojanowski did not survive WWII.

The other three witnesses also served during the Eichmann trials in Jerusalem.

The leading prosecuting attorney of the »Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen zur Aufklärung nationalsozialistischer Verbrechen« (Center of the judiciary administration for the investigation of national socialist crimes) in Ludwigsburg, Dr. Adalbert Rückerl, author of : NS-Vernichtungslager, noted after the completion of the Kulmhof-trial:

»Infolge des langen Zeitablaufs hat das Erinnerungsvermögen der meisten Zeugen erheblich nachgelassen und nicht selten fehlerhafte Erinnerungsbilder erkennen lassen. [...] Die drei Überlebenden des grausigen Geschehens[39] - der vierte ist verstorben - sind bei der zuverlässigen Schilderung ihrer Erlebnisse, soweit es sich um den Ablauf bestimmter Einzelvorgänge (Vorwürfe von Einzeltaten) und das irrtumsfreie Wiedererkennen bestimmter Personen handelt, einfach überfordert. Sie mußten, teilweise in sehr jungem Alter und mehrere Monate lang, eine derartige Vielfalt furchtbarer Vorgänge erleben und erdulden, daß es über die Grenze ihres Vermögens geht, wenn sie sich für ihre Darstellung in die damalige Zeit zurückversetzen müssen.« (Rückerl, S. 253f.).

(Because of the long time that has passed since the events occurred, the memory of most witnesses is considerably diminished and errors in their stories become frequently quite evident. […] The three survivors of this horrible event[39] –the fourth one passed away – are simply overburdened to give a reliable description of their experiences, concerning the logical sequence of events (accusations of specific crimes) and the recognition of suspected persons. They had in some cases at a very young age and for several months to experience and undergo such a variety of horrible events, that it is beyond the limits of their capabilities, when they have to go back in time for their descriptions.)


The results of the criminal trial were used by Rückerl in his study. An inspection by outsiders into the trial files is not possible. But the judgement was published and can be reviewed[30].

:D
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