No Accounting for Wood, No Holocaust

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TMoran
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No Accounting for Wood, No Holocaust

Postby TMoran » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:47 am)

According to Holocaust tales bodies were burned in pits or on grates made out of rail road tracks.

For Sobibor we are told via testimony of Franz Stangl said to have been commandant of that camp and Treblinka that they used "brush wood" piled beneath grates.

For Chelmno we are told they used wood cut from forest.

For Belzec that 600,000 were cremated with wood.

How big of a problem is the wood for the credibility of the Holocaust story? Very big. Incredibly big. HUGE. We can tell how much of a problem it is by the almost total absence of any discussion about how much or where it came from. If we read every single sentence of the millions of sentences ever written about the Holocaust story we might find there are less than 10 references to the wood or where it came from and that would only be something mentioned in passing. Something like, 'The bodies were stacked in a layer then a layer of wood ...' or 'They put the bodies in the pits and then threw wood on top' or 'They lined the bottom of the pit with wood and then put the bodies on top.'

Overlooking any accounts such as that from Stangl where his picture says they could cremate a body with a piece of wood the size of a carton of cigarettes the real amount would have to be contended with.

If it takes 1,000,000 BTUs of heat to cremate a body in a modern day cremation facility then we would have to think that at the very least it would take the same amount to cremate a body under any other circumstances.

In order to neutralize any excuses by the Holocaust community to say there were children involved or the bodies were emaciated or that total cremation was not attained we could allow for an accommodation and say it would take only an average of 250,000 BTUs to cremate a Holocaust body. Now how much more accommodating can it get?

We have these two sources to tap into for information on the BTU content of wood and the impact of water content on burning -

The most basic:
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF12/1249.html

A more detailed treatment:
http://mb-soft.com/juca/print/311.html

Both treatments settle on 8600 BTUs per pound of wood. (Discussion of the various BTU potentials for different kinds of wood omitted.)

Thus 250,000 BTUs divided by the 8600 would be 29 pounds of wood to cremate one body.

Both treatments raise the point that wood considered to be cured would have 20% or less water by weight and that would result in only 7000 BTUs being released. Thus we would have that number into the 250,000 accommodation being 35 pounds of wood per body.

The authority tells us that it would take some six months to cure (dry) out wood to where it would have only 20% water. That would be after the wood was cut into one foot sections and split. (It would be important for the wood to be split and exposing the interior to evaporation to have it cure out in the six months.)

The Holocaust story tells us the Germans first mass exterminated millions and buried them in the ground and then realized they better dig up the bodies and cremate the evidence. Thus it would be at that time the Germans would have to have started to accumulate the wood.

Giving the Holocaust nonsense yet more accommodation lets say there were just two million bodies that had to be cremated. That would be that number times the 35 pounds of wood per body for a total of 70,000,000 pounds of wood needed.

According to one of the above sources there would be some 2000 pounds to 4000 pounds of wood per cord depending on the type of wood. A cord is measured as split wood stacked four feet across, four feet high and eight feet long. That would also be 128 cubic feet.

Lets settle on the average - 3000 pounds per cord. That divided by the 35 pounds of wood needed to cremate one body would be enough wood in each cord to cremate 85 Holocaust bodies. Just with that result we can get a notion of the great accommodation the Holocaust story is getting.

The 85 Holocaust bodies per cord into the two million is 23,520 cords of wood. That would be 3,000,000 cubic feet of wood.

Now, how would the Germans have gone about getting 3,000,000 cubic feet of wood? Seems like a full blown logging operation would have to have been involved. Not only that, but if we have it the Germans suddenly decided they better dig up the bodies and cremate them then there doesn't seem to be much time span between the time of decision and the commencement of the cremations which would be at the same time of acquiring the wood and not having enough time to dry the wood out.

The above sources tell us there is anywhere from 30 to 60% water in fresh cut wood. They tell us that just 20% water would knock off 1600 BTUs so if we just settled on 40% water in the fresh cut wood for cremating the Holocaust bodies we could take off another 1600 BTUs from the potential of one pound of wood. In that case we would have 5400 BTUs per pound of wood which would be 46 pounds of fresh cut wood per body. That would be 92,000,000 pounds of wood.

Now all that is bad enough for the credibility of the Holocaust tales but we have this one big problem. How do you go about burning fresh cut wood?

Anyone could go down to the local lumber yard and would be able to buy a kiln dried piece 2 x 4 lumber and one piece of construction grade which is usually wet. (Just picking them up would demonstrate the noticeable difference in weight due to water.)

Wet wood doesn't burn until the most of the water is driven out.

Even if flammable material is poured over the wood in the first stage, as a few Holocaust tales can have it, most of the flammable material would burn away before it had much effect on the water content of the wood. Just to get a 2 x 4 cut up into pieces with a couple splintered for kindling you would probably have to repeat the dousing of gasoline or whatever a number of times before the wood would start to burn on its own.

There seems to be no end to what revisionists could muster up to challenge the Holocaust mass cremations by wood.

Most fireplace authorities will tell us that 90% of the heat from a fire will go up the chimney. That makes sense, heat rises. Franz Stangl said the flames would shoot up 10 meters or 30 feet. Any flames or heat that existed after passing by the bodies would be wasted unused heat. Giving the Holocaust story more accommodation we could say that 50% of the heat generated would have gone unused which in that case we would need 100% more wood to gain the 50%.

It's a real vicious circle. Each consideration only makes it worse and worse. No wonder we only have the word 'wood' appearing only a few times among the hundreds of millions of Holocaust words.

No doubt there were attempts to make up detailed stories about the wood but they would realize that just to take the first step would need a second step and that would need a third and the next thing they would know they would have built up a Pandora's Box scenario that would require something more than words to perpetuate.


No credible accounting for the wood, no Holocaust.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:38 pm)

All this wood burning was I take it, the cause for 'when the skies were black'

I simply do not accept that colossal open air funeral pyres, would not have been caught on film at least once by allied recon planes. Especially as by late 43 and early 44 the Germans had lost air superiority.

I cannot believe that a task such as this would not have been seen. I mean, how long would it have taken the German's to have exhumed all those rotting corpses at Auschwitz, and then burnt them on wooden pyres? An adventure like that would have took bloody months, and their trying to tell me no-one saw it...bollocks!

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jul 20, 2003 8:12 pm)

Mattogno lists in a new study titled “Verbrennungsexperimente mit Tierfleisch und Tierfett” (Incineration Experiments with Animal Meat and Animal Fat) (published in the latest German issue of Rudolf’s magazine), some test results by Engineer W. Heepke and some of his own experiments.

Engineer W. Heepke built a pit, 2.5 m long and 1.5 m deep, filled it up with dry wood soaked first in petroleum, than placed on top a 250 kg animal cadaver (I think it was a horse). And put the whole thing on fire.
Result: It took 5-6 hours and ~2.5 m³ wood ( = 1,250 kg wood) to burn the cadaver.
With other words, 5 kg of wood per 1 kg animal cadaver.

Heepke also made a lot of test of animal cadaver incinerations in ovens, using hard coal. He needed about 0.5 kg coal to incinerate 1.0 kg cadaver in 4 hours. This would amount to 40 kg coal for a 75 kg (150 lb) heavy human being.

For swamps, moors and areas close to rivers Heepke suggests to use shallow pits, about 2 ft deep, and to build a sheet metal screen around the whole thing, to prevent the heat from escaping into the atmosphere and to focus instead on the cadaver to be incinerated.

Mattogno, not being satisfied with all this, built his own ovens and made some tests on animal cadavers himself.

First he built a wood fired crematorium oven in the open.
Wood requirement: 2.63 kg wood per kg cadaver (200 kg wood for a 150 lb person)
Duration: 1 hr 15 min.

Secondly he built an incinerator which he also fed with wood.
Wood requirement: 3.1 kg wood per kg cadaver
Duration: 2 hr 40 minutes

Thirdly he made a test in a pit which he dug in the open
Wood requirement: 3.5 kg wood per kg cadaver
Duration: 1 hr 35 minutes.
Note: After 31 hr the temperature was still 160C (320F).

Mattogno then lists experience with cremation on pyres in India, as quoted by the newspaper “Hindustan Today”:
They need for the cremation of 21,000 Hindus , who die daily, an amount of 18 Million pounds of wood, or 250 Hectare (= 625 acres) of forest.

Happy pit-burning!

:D
fge

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Jul 21, 2003 2:20 pm)

So let me get this straight, The Germans were supposed to have dug up these corpses which had been buried for a while (I do not know how long they suggest they were buried, before they exhumed them) and then burned them in pits. Am I right in suggesting that the Number at Auschwitz is 1,500.000 at the moment ? (I am not really sure as they change it so often I cannot keep up!)

21,000 Hindus = 625 acres of forest

1,500.000 Jews = 44643 acres of forest

44643 x 0.0015625 = 69.75

So to cremate 1,500.000 Jews would have taken 69.75 square miles of forest.

Not only were the Germans master lumberjacks,. but they cleared nearly 70 square miles of forest without anyone noticing; and never left a trace of their work to be seen.

What a joke all this balderdash is, seventy square miles of forest! If it wasn't so pathetic It would be funny.

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Postby 1/2 Believer » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:22 pm)

Turpitz wrote:I simply do not accept that colossal open air funeral pyres, would not have been caught on film at least once by allied recon planes. Especially as by late 43 and early 44 the Germans had lost air superiority.



Allied aircraft did not have the range to do reconasiance missions into Eastern Poland in 1943. (Long range drop tanks, forward bases in northern Italy) Allies did not establish air supeority over Germany until much later. So any attempts would have been hazardous in the extreme. Also, Eastern Poland was not high on the list of recon objectives even when ability became available.

So large pyres would not have been noticed in Eastern Poland and Western Soviet Union. I believe the earliest allied aerial photos of Aushwitz were taken in the fall of 1944.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:58 pm)

As to why Allied recon shots may not have gotten any raging fires in pits ½ believer says:
'Allied aircraft did not have the range to do reconasiance missions into Eastern Poland in 1943. (Long range drop tanks, forward bases in northern Italy) Allies did not establish air supeority over Germany until much later. So any attempts would have been hazardous in the extreme. Also, Eastern Poland was not high on the list of recon objectives even when ability became available.

So large pyres would not have been noticed in Eastern Poland and Western Soviet Union. I believe the earliest allied aerial photos of Aushwitz were taken in the fall of 1944.'

==============================================

The Allies had taken recon shots as early as May 1944. The story tells us there were mass cremations in pits during that time and later to take up what the ovens couldn't handle. The Allies did recon shots in June, August and September. No raging fires showing up. That period is during the time that the story tells us the mass exterminations were at the highest.

No raging fires in Allied photos, no Holocaust. No forensic exposures of alleged mass cremations in pits anywhere, no Holocaust.

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Postby 1/2 Believer » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:19 pm)

TMoran wrote:The Allies did recon shots in June, August and September. No raging fires showing up. That period is during the time that the story tells us the mass exterminations were at the highest.


But the allies never had minute by minute satellite coverage of area. Ovens could have handled most of the corpses and pyres used only on rare occasions.

I believe most eye witness accounts emphasize that the Crematoria were used for the day to day burning of the bodies. And crematoria are supported by recon photos.

Eyewitness testimony from traumatic events is often fragmented and rarely presents a minutely detailed chronological description.

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Postby 1/2 Believer » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:35 pm)

[quote="Turpitz"] Am I right in suggesting that the Number at Auschwitz is 1,500.000 at the moment ? (I am not really sure as they change it so often I cannot keep up!)

So to cremate 1,500.000 Jews would have taken 69.75 square miles of forest.
[quote]

Were the Crematoria at Aushwitz fed by wood or by coal or coke? Lets say wood is correct. Would 70 square miles of timber be unobtainable in Poland? What about surrounding areas (Belarus and Western Ukraine?) NO

Is 70 square miles from many sites a hugely noticable drop in forests..... given the percentage of forested land in the area? NO (Poland and surrounding areas have / had thousands of square miles of Forests) So 70 square miles would be a reduction of say 1-5% forest coverage. Even 10% is not hugely noticable following a devastating war.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:46 pm)

1/2 Believer wrote: Ovens could have handled most of the corpses and pyres used only on rare occasions.

Krema II could handle at the most 300-400 corpses a day. All crematoriums together about 1200 at best. Anything beyond this would have to be burned in pits.
And crematoria are supported by recon photos.

Apparently not with smoking chimneys. See: See Mattogno http://www.russgranata.com/Risposta-new-eng.html
Could you post such a recon photo where the crematorium smoke from the chimneys can be seen? Maybe with the date?

:D
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Postby 1/2 Believer » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:16 pm)

Sailor,

I am not aware that such a photo exists. Of course this must be balanced with fact that recon flights over the area were relatively rare and covered a small percentage of the time frame.

I dont dispute that numbers have been exaggerated (1/2 believer) but even a capacity of say 1000 per day coupled with sporadic out door burnings adds up to a very large number of people.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:59 am)

The flights were indeed during times of alleged actions. Where are the alleged actions?

You have no evidence that 1000 a day were murdered at Auschwitz/Birkenau, therefore your assertion is illogical & irrelevant.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby AngelofDeath » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:40 pm)

...
Last edited by AngelofDeath on Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:50 pm)

½ beileiver selected this from what I replied with:
'The Allies did recon shots in June, August and September. No raging fires showing up. That period is during the time that the story tells us the mass exterminations were at the highest.'


½ believer says:
"But the allies never had minute by minute satellite coverage of area. Ovens could have handled most of the corpses and pyres used only on rare occasions.

I believe most eye witness accounts emphasize that the Crematoria were used for the day to day burning of the bodies. And crematoria are supported by recon photos.

Eyewitness testimony from traumatic events is often fragmented and rarely presents a minutely detailed chronological description."

=============================================

There are a number of things the Allied recon shots should be showing according to your eyewitness accounts and don't show. None of it.

No forensic excavations have ever been presented to show any credibility to any of your eyewitness accounts.

Many of your eyewitness accounts agreed that some 12,000 Jews a day were cremated in ovens and up to 10,000 more in pits. You won't find those eyewitnesses being quoted in Holocaust books. The only place you will find them is in Pressac's book and it looks like he pulled a fast one on the Holocaust story.

Many of your eyewitnesses told tales that defy the laws of nature.

Any of you comments about what your eyewitnesses remembered are useless. The only relevance is what they say they saw, not any phantom notions about what they forgot.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:22 am)

Does anyone know whether the German's had Chainsaw's, or was all this Tree-felling done with the axe ?

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Postby neugierig » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:30 am)

Turpitz wrote:
"Does anyone know whether the German's had Chainsaw's, or was all this Tree-felling done with the axe ?"

Come now, what a silly question. It was done the 'German way', of course. :)

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